<!--QuoteBegin--Kalmah+Oct 16 2003, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kalmah @ Oct 16 2003, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Oct 16 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Oct 16 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How ironic you're a veteran. What'd I tell you about the elitism, the arrogance, the flaming, and the general attitude of nearly all vets? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not all the vets... Just PJ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why I said 'NEARLY ALL'. Khaim is a vet (I think), and he's a really cool guy. But c'mon, just to prove my point, I should make a thread saying 'Fade is weak for 50 res' and you'll get to watch 5+ vets tell me I suck and I should watch a CAL match.
It's blatantly true tho... I'm not an elite player but anyone who has even tasted clanplay knows that skilled fades can dominate... anyone who says otherwise is a fool or just plain ignorant. You dont have to be a "vet" to be annoyed by a foolish post.
Nostalgia. 1.04 was very boring. It was very linear. Even if the JP/HMG tactic was fixed, it would still be incredibly linear.
2.01 is better in the sense that the game varies somewhat more than previous versions. But there are still some fundamental problems:
1) There's still a lot of linearity. For ex, D-M-S is still by far the most popular strat for aliens. Marines nearly always favor HA to JP because HA trains are powerful and versatile and JP rely on alien unpreparedness.
2) Endgames are boring. For marine victories, aliens feel utterly hopeless. For alien victories, marines can still have some fun because the gameplay changes to something similar to the UT Assault gametype. Nevertheless, it gets old after several minutes. The problem has to do with static defenses. Static defenses can counter
3) Onos and HA are "superweapons". Although they are costly, they are both versatile and powerful, which should never go together. The onos serves as a damage soaker, seige unit, heavy damage dealer, and support (via stomping). HA just makes LA obselete. One may say this is reasonable because HA is costly, but every tactic should have a risk. An HA train is not risky at all - it is powerful and versatile.
"The biggest pitfalls deal with the treatment of game phases. Few RTSes have managed to go past the basic build-and-rush phase (thus never leaving the early game for the most part, or just having a very linear escalation in technology and armies). Those few that have gotten past this often have difficulties dealing with the late game. The most common attempts at solutions seen are superweapons, an even bigger rush, and attrition. I define a superweapon as a weapon of immense destructive power (And cost) that can be operated out of a heavily fortified area (i.e. your base), with no additional risk for attacking ... Every attack should have a risk. Though cool, I feel that "superweapons" are bad as they do not incur risk. Also, a per-attack cost is not to be confused with a risk. There should always be some opportunity for your opponent to counter your attack and destroy your resources cost effectively. Even with this premise, you can still have cool, mega-destuctive weapons that carry risk. The nuke in SC is far better than the nuke in TA for this reason." - Tom Cadwell
4) Lack of strategic adaptation. This is generally an alien problem. A marine team have the capability to adapt quickly to most situations. However, while the alien team is flexible, the linking of evo chamber types fo hives leads to a lack of strategic adaptation. For ex, an alien team decides to go sensory first. The marines can adapt by building observatories, researching MT quickly, and scanning a lot. Now if NS was like WC3, the alien team could counter-adapt. However, the aliens cannot switch to another chamber, not even through expending resources and time. They must get another hive, a territorial barrier to adaptability.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mendevel+Oct 16 2003, 11:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendevel @ Oct 16 2003, 11:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's blatantly true tho... I'm not an elite player but anyone who has even tasted clanplay knows that skilled fades can dominate... anyone who says otherwise is a fool or just plain ignorant. You dont have to be a "vet" to be annoyed by a foolish post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_-
<!--QuoteBegin--chia-ono+Oct 16 2003, 11:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (chia-ono @ Oct 16 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mendevel+Oct 16 2003, 11:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendevel @ Oct 16 2003, 11:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's blatantly true tho... I'm not an elite player but anyone who has even tasted clanplay knows that skilled fades can dominate... anyone who says otherwise is a fool or just plain ignorant. You dont have to be a "vet" to be annoyed by a foolish post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_- <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) I've already said that I *DO* dominate as a fade.
2) Further evidence you don't read my posts, I mention there being only two kinds of Fade players. Instead of Fade being a logical 'next step' to higher tech like it is for marines, only about 1 in 6 players actually knows how to use a fade well. Most people go fade run off to find marines, and get gunned down in seconds. That's why you'll rarelly see more then 2 people go fade in your average pub. Most would rather save for onos, which gives you MUCH more bang for your buck, is much easier to play, and gives you much more satisfaction that you're a more powerful unit on the tech tree.
A player shouldn't fork out 50 resources just to get a really slow, really weakly armored, very vulnerable unit whose only defining role is given the very broad title of 'hit and run'.
Anyway, I've made my point MORE then abundantly clear. Maybe I was wrong on the cri and vet cheating, maybe I was right. But I still think the vet idea was terrible.
Enough with the "fade are too weak/strong" junk. Thats not what this thread is about.
Yes, this has been building up for a long time and I'm glad someone finally decided to say something about it because it needs to be addressed. Hopefully the flames of a few (teflon) won't get this thread locked for everyone else who has something good to say.
<!--QuoteBegin--chia-ono+Oct 16 2003, 11:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (chia-ono @ Oct 16 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> because he doesn't have a point. He has no knowledge about the vet team as it stands and is still hostile towards it like they collectively destroyed his mother and then came back for sloppy seconds.
Look at his example. He can post something contradicting even Flayra's own opinion (fades) and simply because clanners will call him wrong he's immediately making some mind-bending social commentary?
Give me a break. That goes beyond the debate of who to design a game for first, I'd chalk it up to jealously driving him into a blind hatred towards those <i>crazy</i> enough to try and get something extra out of the game that you can't find on a pub. Or maybe you want us to apologize for being better than you? You're being completely irrational. You can sit there and call me or my peers arrogant, elitist ****, and tell US we have the poor attitudes, and if we stand up for ourselves in any way we are the ones flaming or being ****. The only person who needs to get over themselves is you. Keep your blanket opinions to yourself, thanks
On the topic of who to design it for, I'm sure you've had plenty of thoughtful discussions with the Tribes dev team on their public forum as they go upon another PR spur or some crap. But the simple fact is if you start balancing for people who don't know how to play you end up with a broken game. It's that simple. If you are sacrificing balance to accomodote morons you are only selling yourself and everyone else short.
I dont think NS is dying at all. NS hasnt been that big of a game to begin with, and it hasnt shrunk any. I still see new players every day on the server I play on and its almost always full. I have to actually plan ahead to play NS as the server only has open spots at certain times unless I get lucky.
Personally I didnt know CAL was that popular. When I played CS almost everyone seemed to think CAL players as 2nd rate, and often enough they were true. And on CS I was a server jumper. With NS its diffrent. CS is just a deathmatch with no team play at all. People think it is a team game and so when they play NS, a TRUE Team game, they think it "sucks" half the time as they cant just run off and kill a ton of players.
Because its not a simple deathmatch like Quake, Doom, HL, and Counter-Strike you wont have as many people playing cause, no offense meant, it is my opinion that you get a better quality of players rather than a quanity. NS may not seem as popular as some other games but thats because you actually need more tactics than aim for the head and listen for footsteps.
The people who play NS for more than 2 days are the people who keep playing NS and will keep playing it as long as the team play doesnt die. If NS: Combat does better than NS thats because its just a simple deathmatch that even the worst video gamers will enjoy as they think they are doing good. I think that most of you will agree that the majority of NS players know kinda where they stand unlike people who play CS who usually arent very skilled but think they are "ub3r "elite"".
So is NS dying? No. I doubt it. If anything its growing as people realise how team-oriented NS is.
<!--QuoteBegin--MadcapMagician+Oct 16 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MadcapMagician @ Oct 16 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Enough with the "fade are too weak/strong" junk. Thats not what this thread is about.
Yes, this has been building up for a long time and I'm glad someone finally decided to say something about it because it needs to be addressed. Hopefully the flames of a few (teflon) won't get this thread locked for everyone else who has something good to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well the fade too weak/strong is one of the better points about why the game isn't fun for casual players, same with commander mode. Both require an ultra-intense, hardcore training regemine, a massive degree of skill, and even a brush of luck to use well. Things the casual player and new players will never know.
And the game will not- CAN not grow without fresh meat.
(And most of my posts weren't flames, but just very VERY strongly worded <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1) Of course it contradicts what Flayra thinks. No disrespect for the man, but he believes the game will survive on clan play alone. The lack of many clans is evidence that that isn't happening.
2) Clans want something beyond the game. That 'something' is exactly why they're in a clan. The community and the teamwork. Not because they're the select few who KNOW how a certain feature works that Joe Newbie or John Gamer knows a BIT about, but every time they try it, get totally crushed and leave the game feeling WORSE then when they joined.
Comments
No, it's not all the vets... Just PJ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why I said 'NEARLY ALL'. Khaim is a vet (I think), and he's a really cool guy. But c'mon, just to prove my point, I should make a thread saying 'Fade is weak for 50 res' and you'll get to watch 5+ vets tell me I suck and I should watch a CAL match.
2.01 is better in the sense that the game varies somewhat more than previous versions. But there are still some fundamental problems:
1) There's still a lot of linearity. For ex, D-M-S is still by far the most popular strat for aliens. Marines nearly always favor HA to JP because HA trains are powerful and versatile and JP rely on alien unpreparedness.
2) Endgames are boring. For marine victories, aliens feel utterly hopeless. For alien victories, marines can still have some fun because the gameplay changes to something similar to the UT Assault gametype. Nevertheless, it gets old after several minutes. The problem has to do with static defenses. Static defenses can counter
3) Onos and HA are "superweapons". Although they are costly, they are both versatile and powerful, which should never go together. The onos serves as a damage soaker, seige unit, heavy damage dealer, and support (via stomping). HA just makes LA obselete. One may say this is reasonable because HA is costly, but every tactic should have a risk. An HA train is not risky at all - it is powerful and versatile.
"The biggest pitfalls deal with the treatment of game phases. Few RTSes have managed to go past the basic build-and-rush phase (thus never leaving the early game for the most part, or just having a very linear escalation in technology and armies). Those few that have gotten past this often have difficulties dealing with the late game. The most common attempts at solutions seen are superweapons, an even bigger rush, and attrition. I define a superweapon as a weapon of immense destructive power (And cost) that can be operated out of a heavily fortified area (i.e. your base), with no additional risk for attacking ... Every attack should have a risk. Though cool, I feel that "superweapons" are bad as they do not incur risk. Also, a per-attack cost is not to be confused with a risk. There should always be some opportunity for your opponent to counter your attack and destroy your resources cost effectively. Even with this premise, you can still have cool, mega-destuctive weapons that carry risk. The nuke in SC is far better than the nuke in TA for this reason."
- Tom Cadwell
4) Lack of strategic adaptation. This is generally an alien problem. A marine team have the capability to adapt quickly to most situations. However, while the alien team is flexible, the linking of evo chamber types fo hives leads to a lack of strategic adaptation. For ex, an alien team decides to go sensory first. The marines can adapt by building observatories, researching MT quickly, and scanning a lot. Now if NS was like WC3, the alien team could counter-adapt. However, the aliens cannot switch to another chamber, not even through expending resources and time. They must get another hive, a territorial barrier to adaptability.
I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_-
I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_- <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I've already said that I *DO* dominate as a fade.
2) Further evidence you don't read my posts, I mention there being only two kinds of Fade players. Instead of Fade being a logical 'next step' to higher tech like it is for marines, only about 1 in 6 players actually knows how to use a fade well. Most people go fade run off to find marines, and get gunned down in seconds. That's why you'll rarelly see more then 2 people go fade in your average pub. Most would rather save for onos, which gives you MUCH more bang for your buck, is much easier to play, and gives you much more satisfaction that you're a more powerful unit on the tech tree.
A player shouldn't fork out 50 resources just to get a really slow, really weakly armored, very vulnerable unit whose only defining role is given the very broad title of 'hit and run'.
Anyway, I've made my point MORE then abundantly clear. Maybe I was wrong on the cri and vet cheating, maybe I was right. But I still think the vet idea was terrible.
- Tef
Yes, this has been building up for a long time and I'm glad someone finally decided to say something about it because it needs to be addressed. Hopefully the flames of a few (teflon) won't get this thread locked for everyone else who has something good to say.
I don't think you catch the sarcasim and the point he is trying to make -_- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because he doesn't have a point. He has no knowledge about the vet team as it stands and is still hostile towards it like they collectively destroyed his mother and then came back for sloppy seconds.
Look at his example. He can post something contradicting even Flayra's own opinion (fades) and simply because clanners will call him wrong he's immediately making some mind-bending social commentary?
Give me a break. That goes beyond the debate of who to design a game for first, I'd chalk it up to jealously driving him into a blind hatred towards those <i>crazy</i> enough to try and get something extra out of the game that you can't find on a pub. Or maybe you want us to apologize for being better than you? You're being completely irrational. You can sit there and call me or my peers arrogant, elitist ****, and tell US we have the poor attitudes, and if we stand up for ourselves in any way we are the ones flaming or being ****. The only person who needs to get over themselves is you. Keep your blanket opinions to yourself, thanks
On the topic of who to design it for, I'm sure you've had plenty of thoughtful discussions with the Tribes dev team on their public forum as they go upon another PR spur or some crap. But the simple fact is if you start balancing for people who don't know how to play you end up with a broken game. It's that simple. If you are sacrificing balance to accomodote morons you are only selling yourself and everyone else short.
Personally I didnt know CAL was that popular. When I played CS almost everyone seemed to think CAL players as 2nd rate, and often enough they were true. And on CS I was a server jumper. With NS its diffrent. CS is just a deathmatch with no team play at all. People think it is a team game and so when they play NS, a TRUE Team game, they think it "sucks" half the time as they cant just run off and kill a ton of players.
Because its not a simple deathmatch like Quake, Doom, HL, and Counter-Strike you wont have as many people playing cause, no offense meant, it is my opinion that you get a better quality of players rather than a quanity. NS may not seem as popular as some other games but thats because you actually need more tactics than aim for the head and listen for footsteps.
The people who play NS for more than 2 days are the people who keep playing NS and will keep playing it as long as the team play doesnt die. If NS: Combat does better than NS thats because its just a simple deathmatch that even the worst video gamers will enjoy as they think they are doing good. I think that most of you will agree that the majority of NS players know kinda where they stand unlike people who play CS who usually arent very skilled but think they are "ub3r "elite"".
So is NS dying? No. I doubt it. If anything its growing as people realise how team-oriented NS is.
-Red
Yes, this has been building up for a long time and I'm glad someone finally decided to say something about it because it needs to be addressed. Hopefully the flames of a few (teflon) won't get this thread locked for everyone else who has something good to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the fade too weak/strong is one of the better points about why the game isn't fun for casual players, same with commander mode. Both require an ultra-intense, hardcore training regemine, a massive degree of skill, and even a brush of luck to use well. Things the casual player and new players will never know.
And the game will not- CAN not grow without fresh meat.
(And most of my posts weren't flames, but just very VERY strongly worded <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1) Of course it contradicts what Flayra thinks. No disrespect for the man, but he believes the game will survive on clan play alone. The lack of many clans is evidence that that isn't happening.
2) Clans want something beyond the game. That 'something' is exactly why they're in a clan. The community and the teamwork. Not because they're the select few who KNOW how a certain feature works that Joe Newbie or John Gamer knows a BIT about, but every time they try it, get totally crushed and leave the game feeling WORSE then when they joined.
<span style='color:red'>**Locked**</span>