An interestingly civil discussion

Scythe · August 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">On cheating</div><a href="http://americasarmy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=18818&forum=4&start=0" target="_blank">http://americasarmy.com/forum....start=0</a>

This is a thread I started on the America's Army board about a script that I made to assist with aiming.

Comments?

--Scythe--
<a href="mailto:the_only_scythe@subdimension.com">the_only_scythe@subdimension.com</a>

Silver_Fox · August 2002

<img src="http://www.clanlsr.com/yabbse/YaBBImages/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

you tried helping, they dont want it.

Shrug it off and go have some fun.
<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Scythe · August 2002

I'm not unhappy with anything they've said, I'm just looking to see what people here think of what was said by all parties.

--Scythe--
the_only_scythe@subdimension.com

Carbon14 · August 2002

Good work Scythe, another talented person in the NS community <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

I hate cheaters, but I fail to see how this is cheating. Maybe they should start considering those who have 21 inch monitors cheaters because they hold an advantage over those with 15 inch monitors. Or they could say that those people with a Gforce4 are cheating because they get higher FPS and larger resolution. I think they are completely wrong and I can see how this would annoy you. But I guess it doesn't matter, I mean you can just go back to this great community anyway <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

CMEast · August 2002

I dont really see it as cheating tbh, although I dont play that game and your script may have a different effect than it would in the games I play (TFC etc). It would ruin me if I had something like that (I thought about it once briefly but it would make things harder).
Techincally I could aim better as I could have a high sensitivity when fight up close and a low sensitivity when shooting people further away from me. What would actually happen is that I couldnt get used to the change and it would completely ruin my aiming.
I created a script in TFC that allowed me to change from one push grenades to two push grenades instantly because they are both good in slightly different situations. What actually happened was Id throw grenades unprimed or hold onto them and have them explode into my face.

If you can use it then your a better player than me (although now that I think about it if its anything like OFP or another realistic game with large maps then it could make a significant difference). Either way I dont think its cheating. Otherwise everyone would have to play under exactly the same settings and if someone jumps on the server with only one arm then everyone else has to stick their arm behind their back too.

MooMoo_the_SnowCow · August 2002

I really don't see how it would be cheating cause I find it just as easy to just move your mouse slower.

GobyWan · August 2002

I find that it's hard to aim precisely at long distances with your sensitivity set to max. In Firearms, I have it at 20 for normal combat, but this means I have trouble sniping at long range because of my low resolution.

If I decide to change my mouse sensitivity relative to the situation by using a keybind, the only advantage it gives me is the ability to aim properly at range like all the people running in 1024x768 with good mice. It's much like real life combat, you don't want to move your weapon very slowly in a CQB situation or quickly in a long-range situation, but with the HL engine, no single sensitivity setting gives you the ability to do both of those things well.

Biomechanoid · August 2002

wow.... I've actually been wanting a script like that for RA in Q3A... I'm gonna borrow it if that's all right. and.. no I don't think that's cheating, although... I do have a script that allows you to zoom in with any weapon in TFC- pretty useless as all the weapons have a longassed Shot-To-Closure time except the sniper rifle, but still, if someone wants it, I'll post it.

[edit] is it cheating if I use my trackball and can spin completely around 4 times in less than a second without high sensitivity? I'd like to see you mouse users do that.

Thansal1 · August 2002

good Bio!!!! (I am the only person I know who uses track ball ;D)

honestly I think that this type of script is a very good idea, and in no way cheating (not to mention that this is NOT a new script I have seen it in many places)

also the perfect argument for any jack*** who pulls out the 'you can't do it in RL' well, actualy yes you can, go, get a gun and learn how to shoot, there are times when you aim in differant ways (primarily by the type of movements you make) and if you are using a scope you make very small twitch like motions to change the aim

oh well, I tend to script periodicly in HL but most of mine are generaly says, however Ido use scripts like that one periodicly

the other eason why I don't view this as cheating is that every one has access to it, and you are suposed to have access to itm one of those ppl brought up a bug exploit, 2 diff things thats all

oh well /me is rambeling as usual ;D

SentrySteve · August 2002

I fail to see how this is NOT cheating and its a shame to see something like this, made by an NS community member. From what I gather it lets you have an advantage that no one else has/very little (I dont think too many people followed your description) have. If the developers wanted you to have this advantage, it would be an option. I strongly agree with this quote from "W" in your thread.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So if altering your script so you can shoot a little better is okay or altering your script so you can crawl a little faster is okay, is it okay if I alter the script a little so I can see through fog or smoke? Would that be okay? Is it okay to alter the script a little so I'm harder to kill</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

richard_of_richardland · August 2002

This isn't cheating at all, they're just using "makes you shoot better" as an excuse to label it a cheat.

It's not a cheat at all, it doens't do anything for you, it simply changes you sensitivty. People could set up aliases to change their sensitivity up and down with the mouse wheel. Would this be cheating? No, because there is no way one sensitivity is any better than any other, if this script is cheating then changing your sensitivity at all is cheating.

It's like the FOV command, I don't consider that cheating. Now using scripts to give any gun a zoom that zooms in and out steadily might be considered cheating, but simply changing your FOV is not cheating despite the fact many consider it is.

SentrySteve · August 2002

Chaning your sensitivty beyond what the game allows through the options menu IS cheating. Why cant I alter my walking speed faster than what the game allows? Why cant I alter how many bullets the game allows you to take. Once you start going into a games code to do something the game does not allow you to do, it becomes cheating.

richard_of_richardland · August 2002

Erm, you're missing the point, this doesn't go into the game code at all, that is immutable.

The sensitvity isn't changable only from the menus, it's changable from the console, it's changable by aliases and scripts by design.

The game engine supports aliases for this very purpose.

That's like saying "omg changing your name from the console instead of the customisation menu" is cheating.

The game DOES ALLOW THIS.

Bill · August 2002

In my opinion if it gives you an edge over other players playing the game normal, then it's cheating. I've always held the belief that using an exploit is just as bad as cheating.(Like sky walking in cs)

Gwahir · August 2002

I do not believe this cheating. It simply allows the player to alter the sensitivity between 2 set levels (both within normal limits) on the fly. The actual tracking of targets is done completely by the player. In fact, when using a sniper rifle, zoomed in, in most games, the mouse senstivity is automatically reduced since if it remained the same aiming would prove extremely difficult.

Bill · August 2002

I don't think it's a serious enough cheat to complain about, I think it's about as serious as buy scripts in CS, I just think you should play the game the way it was meant to be played. This does give him an advantage over players not using it, and it's not officially implented in the game, it's an exploit, therefore in my opinion it is cheating. In all honesty though, I don't really think it's serious enough to matter.

Thansal1 · August 2002

thats just the point, it isn't an exploitit is ussing a function of the game as it was DESIGNED to be used, bind and scripts, if used as intended (not as that fast crawl thing) are what the devs put em in for

@SentrySteve as was pointed out, he is not altering the sensitivity beyond the max/min he is simply setting a bind to switch his sensitivity between 2 diff ones, just like any person with a gun, you aim differantly if the target is farther away
here, ifany one has ever played silent scope, you know that you don't sit there with your eye glued to the scope at all times you spend a decent amount of time looking at the big scrn so that you can see targets as they come up and you quickly aim at them, then switch to the scope to do precision
or think of this, the way you fire a sniper rifle vs the way you fire a pistol, you need to beable to move the pistol faster for large movements, where as the rifle you will quickly move, then slowly move for persision
oh well, I fail to see how this is an exploit any more then my track ball is (or for that matter buyscript, side note I can buy as fast as a buy script can so no realy advantage)

Bill · August 2002

The mouse sensitivty is probably able to be toggled in the console so you don't have to leave a game and do it from a menu, not so it can be bound to slow down when a sniper zooms. If I am wrong about this, then I agree it's not a cheat, but I'm obviously not because if they wanted it to be like that then they would have simply made the sensitivty lower when it zooms. The fact of the matter is, I know it's THERE and intended to be used, I just don't think he is using it in that intended manner.

Thansal1 · August 2002

no diff between not having to leave the game to change sens vs having a togle that you press you you zoom so you can aim better

the other thing with this script is that it dosn't give any sort of inherent advantage realy (like moving faster, actualy better aiming or seeing though stuff)

what it does do is let you change your play style as the situation changes, thats it realy. infact I have used these script and find that they DONT help me, but thats just b/c I use a track ball and don't have to wory about big VS small movements <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

horror_kid · August 2002

Not cheating bro. Hrm... my post count over there got dropped back down to 1... yeah well, at least they updated it to show that I am a veteran.

Bill · August 2002

I don't think that anyone can really be right in this argument, it's just a matter of what your opinion of cheating is. It's hard not to have your guards up to anything that even resembles a cheat these days. I admit that this is a reletively harmless little thing, and I have no problem with it. But, I still think that this is kind of getitng into cheat territory considering he does have a slight advantage over players that don't know this config even exists, and I do believe he IS slightly exploiting a feature that wasn't intended to be used that way. Like I said though, there isn't really a right or wrong to this argument, it's all on what people's opinions of what cheating really is.

Tzarcon · August 2002

Sentry Steve, I find it hard to believe that kind of #### is coming out of someone like you. It is not a cheat because it does not change the game rules, it does not change the player's ability beyond what he would already be allowed to do. A script that can make him crawl faster does change his ability beyond what he would already be able to do, as with a script that allows the him to see through smoke. These sorts of methods to make it easier to aim have been in shooters for years and have been adopted by many clans and even professional leagues. I expected you would understand something like this better.

Bill · August 2002

I've been gaming for 15 years and playing first person shooters on the PC for 7 years and I consider this cheating. I don't think having a post count over 100 some how makes you a more logical thinker.

Tzarcon · August 2002

I'll say it again, it is not cheating because it does not increase his ability beyond what he could already do without the script

Gwahir · August 2002

to say that this is cheating because others don't know how to do it is first negated by his offer to share it, second of all, that's like saying that someone who knows how to evolve between alien classes is cheating because there is probably someone who doesn't know how.

richard_of_richardland · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bill @ Aug. 27 2002,02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The mouse sensitivty is probably able to be toggled in the console so you don't have to leave a game and do it from a menu, not so it can be bound to slow down when a sniper zooms. If I am wrong about this, then I agree it's not a cheat, but I'm obviously not because if they wanted it to be like that then they would have simply made the sensitivty lower when it zooms. The fact of the matter is, I know it's THERE and intended to be used, I just don't think he is using it in that intended manner.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Half-life does this automatically with zoom_sensitivity_ratio.

There are even scripts to change zoom_sensitivity_ratio in the way sensitivity is changed here.

This isn't even near a cheat, it gives him no extra ability to hit the enemy, it's simply to make the game more comfortable.

Put this another way, if this was a script to change your sensitivity when you zoomed out to something faster than you normally set it, would it still be cheating?

When put like that it doesn't scare people into thinking it's some sort of script that helps aiming akin to an aimbot or something, yet it would be an identical script with identical function.

richard_of_richardland · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bill @ Aug. 27 2002,04:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, I still think that this is kind of getitng into cheat territory considering he does have a slight advantage over players that don't know this config even exists.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Does that mean a person who has learned a map and has a massive advantage over someone who doesn't know the map is cheating?

No, games are all about learning the game to better your skills, and learning configs and stuff. That's why sites like Tweak3D.net exist, so people can alter their configs. Do you think people alter their configs for any other purpose than to help their game improve? No, even the mad FPS obsessed people have reasons, the more frames you get the less time between the next frame the quicker you shoot the enemy, the smoother the game the easier it is to land a shot.

Wallstrafing is another example, it's a technique, some people know about it, others don't, but it's not cheating, it's just knowing how to use the game.

Some people don't know about rocket jumping, and it certainly gives people an advantage, but is it cheating? No it's bloody well not.

CollateralDamage · August 2002

It might help the debate if you stopped arguing about the mere word "cheating" and concentrated on the question whether it is desirable that some people use scripts that give them an advantage while others don't.

It is a fact that this script gives its user an advantage, else he would not use it.

It is not desirable that the playing field becomes uneven in any way. This does not apply to knowledge about the game, but it applies to the interface of the game. The ideal game has the exact same, unalterable interface for every user.

Deviances from this ideal of course vary in impact; a wallhack has greater impact than a script. Nonetheless, neither is desirable in the same way as different screen resolutions and framerates are not desirable.

Carbon14 · August 2002

Well, as I said earlier, I do not believe this is cheating, its like someone accusing the owner of a laser mouse a cheater because it allows them to snipe better. The game is built to run at different resolutions, different FPS, with different internet connections AND with different mouse sensitivity. This just allows the mouse sensitivity to be used more economically.

The whole uneven playing feild is business is not true, some people have cable connections, some don't. Ones with cables obviously hold a large advantage.

Thansal1 · August 2002

@richard, that is a bug exploit that has been removed from most major mods (same as Bhopping, it was an exploit that was not suposed to be there)

however richard also pointed out the zoom_sensitivity_ratio, assuming that this is a real var name then what he is doing is in no way cheating (however I don't know if this is a real var or not, could you point out where you found this?)

Biomechanoid · August 2002

Scripts are the grey area of "cheats" I've been to LAN tournaments where they allowed ANY kind of scripitng, so long as it didn't require a 3rd party program (ahh yes, the bunny hopping script that made you run super fast in CS... I remember that BS) I was at a LAN where you couldn't use ANY scripts or even "say_team" binds at all. you backed up your autoexec and config, you got the official one from the judges and you edited the keys in HL. Some tourneys ban certain kinds of scripts (like the zoom and fov scripts) other ones will allow rocket jump and concjump scripts. it all depends on what the official who is moderating the match declares as legal or not. honestly I don't think bunny hopping (where you can constantly jump, not the kind that makes you move faster) isn't cheating, as I can jump constantly in real life a hellofa lot faster in CS- just ask my buds I paint ball with- I'm a RL bunny-hopping mofo who's a pain in the ### to hit when I run.
like wossiface pointed out- what If i made a script that upped my sensitivity to really high when I zoomed out, but had it normal when I zoomed in... is that cheating? some people would say it puts me at a disadvantage. but the net effect of that script is the same as if I just had it lower my sentitivity when I zoomed in. see? it's all realtive to the person.

three random numbers 3,9,8

3*9=27 + 24=3*8
27+24=51

9+8=17*3=51...

a set of completely different equations, right? nope they're the same (distributive property from waaaaaaay the hell back in pre-algebra/algebraI) a(b+c)=ab+ac

cheats can be looked at the same way. if you present them in one form people call it cheating. if you present it in another people will most likely accept the script.

just my .02