Bad Design Is Bad Design
Anonymous_Coward
Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
Taken from Mapping Guidelines:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Create Alien Only Paths - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines. Try to make areas that accommodate and promote the various alien movement types (wall-running, gliding, flying, leaping, and blinking) and reward skilled alien players with routes that are difficult but not impossible to take by using these methods. Ventilation shafts, electrical tunnels, and power conduits should allow aliens to ambush and flank vulnerable marines. These alien only routes should connect the alien hive rooms with each other and allow aliens to travel between adjacent web branches. They shouldn't be overdone; the marines must be able to understand which openings should be watched or blocked off if they want to fortify an area. There can be occasional hidden openings, but most entrances and exits from alien paths should be obvious--gratings, still fans, holes, and access tunnels. The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior. There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How in heaven or hell did ns_eclipse pass this requirement. There is a total of *ONE* vent that honestly allows aliens to move from one point of the map to another more quickly, which is also shut-able by welding. Any other vents that would allow quicker access is countered by some sections where you move vertically for 1/3rd of the time. Additionally, only one vent has an obstructed view of their exits to allow for ambushing. Though South Loop is a vital area, its design certainly seems to favor marines anyway.
I think the only reason it became popular was because this same exact 'feature' allowed for more marine wins. This is a perfect example of what *not* to do with regards to marine vs alien design in future maps.
Edit: Does this belong in the General forum? I see now that the faq states that this forum is reserved more for questions about maps in development than anything else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Create Alien Only Paths - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines. Try to make areas that accommodate and promote the various alien movement types (wall-running, gliding, flying, leaping, and blinking) and reward skilled alien players with routes that are difficult but not impossible to take by using these methods. Ventilation shafts, electrical tunnels, and power conduits should allow aliens to ambush and flank vulnerable marines. These alien only routes should connect the alien hive rooms with each other and allow aliens to travel between adjacent web branches. They shouldn't be overdone; the marines must be able to understand which openings should be watched or blocked off if they want to fortify an area. There can be occasional hidden openings, but most entrances and exits from alien paths should be obvious--gratings, still fans, holes, and access tunnels. The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior. There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How in heaven or hell did ns_eclipse pass this requirement. There is a total of *ONE* vent that honestly allows aliens to move from one point of the map to another more quickly, which is also shut-able by welding. Any other vents that would allow quicker access is countered by some sections where you move vertically for 1/3rd of the time. Additionally, only one vent has an obstructed view of their exits to allow for ambushing. Though South Loop is a vital area, its design certainly seems to favor marines anyway.
I think the only reason it became popular was because this same exact 'feature' allowed for more marine wins. This is a perfect example of what *not* to do with regards to marine vs alien design in future maps.
Edit: Does this belong in the General forum? I see now that the faq states that this forum is reserved more for questions about maps in development than anything else.
Comments
Perhaps I'm just getting shut down versus clanners who practice on the map all day every day and am whining unneccesarily, but I don't really think that's all there is to it.
Vents are important, but they aren't required IMO.
~ DarkATi
It is part of the balance between aliens and marines and that statement about never feeling the need to enter a vent? Blasphemy! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
check out the vent in the CC hive - dc's in there if marines have taken it or siege from there if the aliens have it. The new vent from maint to Southloop... a great addition. yadda yadda yadda.
I think that next to Bast, Eclipse has one of the best vent systems in the game.
CC hive vent has so much vertical movement that it kills its use to get between the exits faster and it's easy to shoot down Skulks emerging from either side of it. Same is true for the South Loop vent. The inevitable siege always kills those near-hive vent structures... In my opinion even a single ceiling opening to a vent, with an obstructed view, in one of the major chokepoints would really fix this map. But I'm going to stop complaining and join the marines there forever in the future. Having the exact same level of access to every free resource node and hive in the map for both sides just seems extremely odd to me for some reason.
Eclipse doesn’t need vents to effectively flank the enemy. The hallway interconnectivity achieves this quit well with out vents.
NO Eclipse bashing people <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's that one from eclipse command to triad that I always use as a fade, along with the other other one from eclipse command into that bit next to comp core. Those and a few others I haven't mentioned are great vents for mobility and getting around quicker, but those definately aren't the vents I love at all.
My favourite eclipse vents (which are the majority of them) are the ones that feature wires etc hanging down so you can stand in their entrances watching marines go past before you launch out and strike. There are plenty more with just as many uses. The amount of times I've evolved to gorge and bilebombed either south loop or computer core from the vents up above is ridiculous. You can dig yourself in with DC's and nothing short of a grenade or jetpack (or siege if u DC in) will remove you before their base goes down.
The beauty in the eclipse vents are their strategic and tactical uses. They aren't for moving around, they are for laying the perfect ambush on unwitting marines. Even the triad-eclipse vent is awesome for sneaking up on marine building that res node (seeing as they all assume that corner is "safe" and turn their backs).
EDIT: By the way have you actually read that paragraph Anonymous Coward? Nowhere does it mention that vents are for getting aliens around quicker. It mentions shortcuts for JPs, but for ALIENS the vents are for AMBUSHING, which is EXACTLY what the eclipse vents do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Create Alien Only Paths - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines. Try to make areas that accommodate and promote the various alien movement types (wall-running, gliding, flying, leaping, and blinking) and reward skilled alien players with routes that are difficult but not impossible to take by using these methods. Ventilation shafts, electrical tunnels, and power conduits should allow aliens to ambush and flank vulnerable marines. These alien only routes should connect the alien hive rooms with each other and allow aliens to travel between adjacent web branches. They shouldn't be overdone; the marines must be able to understand which openings should be watched or blocked off if they want to fortify an area. There can be occasional hidden openings, but most entrances and exits from alien paths should be obvious--gratings, still fans, holes, and access tunnels. The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. <b>Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior.</b> There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How in heaven or hell did ns_eclipse pass this requirement. <b>There is a total of *ONE* vent that honestly allows aliens to move from one point of the map to another more quickly, which is also shut-able by welding. Any other vents that would allow quicker access is countered by some sections where you move vertically for 1/3rd of the time.</b> Additionally, only one vent has an obstructed view of their exits to allow for ambushing. Though South Loop is a vital area, its design certainly seems to favor marines anyway.
I think the only reason it became popular was because this same exact 'feature' allowed for more marine wins. This is a perfect example of what *not* to do with regards to marine vs alien design in future maps.
Edit: Does this belong in the General forum? I see now that the faq states that this forum is reserved more for questions about maps in development than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading comprehension is important (added emphasis mine)... The guide doesn't say that vents should be superior routes to hallways in terms of speed; it does say the convienence of the alternate alien-only route should be balanced by making regular hallways more attractive.
If you still feel that vents should be designed to allow aliens faster movement than Marines, your personal opinion is fine; please don't project it on the official docs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It has certainly never been a requirement for official inclusion.
It was just hardwired into my head that lack of speed was the main reason why marines are vulnerable and it sort of colored everything else I read.
Wow, thanks.
It's just that every other map I've seen had passageways that really do help speed movement between vital locations for aliens/JPers to a large extent. And I thought that this was an extremely vital concept in marine vs alien balance. This turns out to not be the case and I was wrong. I take back what I said about eclipse. If it was your map then I'm doubly sorry.
Sure his vents don't work like the vents in the other NS maps... His map also happens to be my favourite NS map... Coincedence? I think not....