Started another thread with this, but it belongs here instead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, you've probably heard it before, but the situation is actually worse than ever. With Onos' charge being completely neutered and the marine cost of equipment so low, the aliens have very little opportunity to finish games where the marines are determined to drag it out.
A perfect example of this is ns_caged. If the marines have had a decent enough game getting upgrades, there can be a situation where the aliens completely dominate the map, the marines are holed up in their base, and there is very little the aliens can do about it. They can charge in periodically, but with upgraded weapons and a few hmgs and shotties lying around, even an Onos won't survive for more than 5 seconds. Coordinated attacks don't get the job done. And the marines, with that one res node, can just wait it out until they've suited up an entire team of HA/HMG/GL/Shotties. Then, just wait in base for another alien surge, destroy everyone, and then march through the map uncontested.
This is not the way the game should be.
What the aliens need is for charge to actually be useful again, and acid rocket needs to be worthy of a 3 hive attack. Beef it up and increase the splash damage. Make primal scream more potent in some way.
3 hive aliens need to be brought back to where they were in 1.04, when they were actually something to be feared. Right now, they are a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without better ranged attacks, the aliens can't effectively engage a defensive minded marine team. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lets face it, the aleins in 2.1 are going to be alot weaker, thats the fact and its not going to change or its back to "Marines can never win". I HATE the way some things about the aleins are in 2.01
-OCs that die faster then you can build them and do nothing late game! -umbra that doesn't block enough -BB that doesn't do enough DMG -Xeano that people can survive 2 times! yada, yada
The marine are going to start OWNING the kharaa come 2.1
So far I have heard two suggestions that might actually work.
--Rebalance marine weapons to be fair without being recoverable
--Allow aliens to build 3rd Hive in Marine Spawn if marines are in a hive location. This doesn't mean they should ever be able to have 4 hives, just an easier time of getting three.
Either of these would put a deisive stop to the painfully slow endgames that result when marines hole up in a hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 25 2003, 02:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 25 2003, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> last hive being in marine spawn sounds like a good Idea. But that wouldn't solve the MS lock down problem! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you get 3 hives, it's GG for the marine team, no matter what...
Seriously, one of the best ways to win would be to all go gorge, get adren, regen, go in and build tons of crap in there, bilebomb, and mass web. The marines won't stand a chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 25 2003, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 25 2003, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 25 2003, 02:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 25 2003, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> last hive being in marine spawn sounds like a good Idea. But that wouldn't solve the MS lock down problem! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you get 3 hives, it's GG for the marine team, no matter what...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats not true.... Ask Beast if you wont take my word for it. I have played ENOUGH games on a few maps (viel, hara, eclipse, come to mind) Where the Kharaa had a good team, all the res -1 (in MS), all 3 hives and the marine still were able to keep us out with farms and GL spam (this was in 2.01e), HMG and HA. They teched up mid game and had enough res to equip everyone when they started to lose. They held the MS for over an hour with constand attack from Xeano skulks, gorges, fades, lerks, onii. IT SUCKED! The aliens just got fed up and F4ed.
A lot of the focus in this thread has been on the endgame has been about aliens being denied their third-hive (stalemate-breaking) abilities by marines turtling in the third hive. Here's my <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=48428' target='_blank'> endgame suggestion</a> that proposes a solution to this problem.
I think the 4 hive thing would work if it was at the rine start... the only problem with that is if the rines relocate to a non-hive location (ie: double res), then they'd have one extra hive spot to assault, secure, etc.
So while I think it would kill the 2 hive stalemate, it might also kill relocations. I guess it depends on weather or not Flayra agrees with relocation or not... ?
One of the most defendable positions on any map is Hera Reception on ns_hera. Max upgraded Marines in HA there, this is how we solve it:
Get a load of M and D chambers up at the end of the hallway leading from MS to Hera. Have 3-4 Fades there, with Umbra from a lerk who's hanging back. Everyone just spam acid.
The rest of the team just keep attacking in waves, xeno skulks, devouring/stomping onos and suicide bilebombing gorges. Base down.
There is NO way to stop an Alien team with 3 hives and plenty of res. No way. The ONLY reasons it takes long is:
- Alien players are stupid. They don't realise what the correct way of doing it is. - Alien players are lazy. They know they've won so they just mess around while Marines slowly reach their end tech.
The problem that induces "stalemates" like this is that when a hive isn't being attacked and aliens are winning, they refuse to use teamwork. Skulks just run in and die, feeding Marines res (usually giving the COM more like 2-3 nodes then 1), lerks spore, gorges lame up other parts of the map and onos just wait outside the base for someone to devour.
"Without better ranged attacks, the aliens can't effectively engage a defensive minded marine team"
Wrong. Mass base rushes designed to hit the important structures DO work. 2 hive aliens can annihilate any base. Ranged weapons are useless because most marine bases have no direct LOS in or out.
I've cracked bases, so I know it works. And I'm playing on a server with some excellent marine opponents.
Second - If you pick a Regen onos, or perhaps a Cara onos with gorge backup, and go on a SUICIDE run, then you'll mangle most base defenses in short order.
IF, and I mean IF, the marines turtle so much that you can't get into the hive, then tbh its aliens fault for lack of earlier action. Can't afford to let rines get dug in. The best you can do in that situation is storm the base with Onos/Fade/Skulks and rush the TF, followed by the CC/research structures. Spore and Umbra support is CRITICAL.
If your team is unwilling to participate in a team attack on base, then IMHO thats just unfortunate for you. I don't see how aliens/marines need to boosted to compensate for poor players.
The truth is that both teams have end game abilities if they use teamwork. Groups of HA and HMG with full upgrades are useless if they don't weld eachother and especially if they don't stick-together. In the same way ONE Onos isn't an endgame, but a TEAM of 2 or 3 Onos with a few fades, and lerks, and some skulks causing havoc, with gorges making OC's and DC right outside the marine base 2 heal the team. Under that pressure no marine team can last forever. As long as the alein team works together.
And here we come to another problem. Marine endgame - HA+HMG marine dies. The marine can be fully outfitted and at the front lines of the battle within 5 seconds. (Phase gate, instant equipment)
Alien endgame - Onos dies. The onos can be re-evolved, upgraded, and at the front lines within ... 60 seconds. Some maps it's worse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Mass base rushes designed to hit the important structures DO work. 2 hive aliens can annihilate any base. Ranged weapons are useless because most marine bases have no direct LOS in or out.
I've cracked bases, so I know it works. And I'm playing on a server with some excellent marine opponents<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
No, we didn;t make a substantial effort to take out MS, which was lamed up beyond beleif. We did little things liek bile-bombing the MS rt, but that's not gonna help. And IF we managed to take out MS, can you imagine what it'd be like if the whole marine team was defending waste? seriuosly?
EDIT:: yes, this is the one with only 1 ladder up to the top, the one which can't be bile-bombed from below...
EDIT2:: oh and btw, there was more than that defending waste. When we tried attacking AS A TEAM, there was a gl, 2 hmgs, a heavy, 2 lmg marines, and 6 turrets.
The biggest problem with endgame (and NS in general) is Marines receiving resources for killing aliens. This makes no technological sense, for one, and it rewards Marines for staying in their base and doing nothing. They can turtle up, subsist on RFK and single resnode, and earn enough resources to tech up and build HA and HMGs until it's game over. This is ESPECIALLY true if the marines are in a hive and don't have to worry about Xenocide or Acid Rocket.
NS endgames are going to be in Marines' favor as long as Marines have RFK. It punishes aliens for being the suicide machines they were designed to be. Imagine an early game where the aliens never attacked marine spawn, but instead only very cautiously nipped the heads off any marines that expanded to an RT. That would be a very short round that would end humiliatingly for the marines, because without those RFK, they would lack the res to tech up early on, and 2nd-hive aliens would completely annihilate them.
Unfortunately, the situation usually involves Marines turtling and teching up until they're strong enough to burst free from their base in an unstoppable fashion. Four HA\HMGs with welders who use adequate teamwork can stop anything that comes after them, including onoses.
Marines should be punished for camping in their base, not rewarded. Instead, Aliens are the ones who get punished for doing so. Aliens, who're a hive-based race that grows and changes like a virus, should grow stronger with time. At hive 2 and hive 3, respectively, OCs should receive upgrades to health and offensive power. THEY ARE USELESS EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME! Four marines can take out 6 OCs with no problem. All they need is a little medspam. Unfortunately, four skulks aren't going to take out a turret farm unless there's nobody at home defending it and it's not electrified.
So, in short, I think the biggest problems with Marines' endgame capabilities are a) The ease with which they can maintain an economy while turtling with one ONE RESNODE, and b) HA welder orgies.
"Marine endgame - HA+HMG marine dies. The marine can be fully outfitted and at the front lines of the battle within 5 seconds. (Phase gate, instant equipment)
Alien endgame - Onos dies. The onos can be re-evolved, upgraded, and at the front lines within ... 60 seconds. Some maps it's worse."
Yes, that would be the balance that has been addressed in other threads - marines have permanent upgrades, and BARRING REDEMPTION, aliens have slow upgrades. Which makes sense in the bigger picture.
Kobayashi -
You've set up a pretty poor hypothesis which serves only yourself. If I say "do blah blah blah" you'll just say you tried it or it couldnt be done. If I say nothing, you'll say "see, I was right".
Waste handling.......
And their spawn was lamed up beyond belief?
How did they get to this point? Did they purposefully lame up from game start? Or start laming midgame when they knew they werent going to win? What was the team size? How many players went lerk/onos and hit waste before it got lamed up?
You also of course realise that if they've lamed up both spawn and 1 hive to such an extent that you can't get in, then they've won the game. That doesnt make them poor players - it makes the alien team poor players who despite KNOWING that marines can do this, let it happen anyway.
I suppose the vents were welded shut too? So that leaves two ways into Waste. Not the worst it could be. Any armoury? So that leaves sporadic GL spam. TBH a double team of stomping Onos can cripple marines. I spent a game tonight as a GORGE standing beside an Onos, and as he spammed stomp I just healsprayed/acid spit marines to death. I managed a lot of kills, even nailing an HA.
I'd expect better from two Onos (you only need to stomp that GL right once, and once he's grounded things get easier) and if a whole alien team was rushing in, I don't see much standing a chance. Sure the onos will get a bit shot up, but at two hives you'll have MC and/or DC and thus can spam stomp with abandon. The gorges rush in and bile the PG. Then the group falls back, heals up a little, and goes in to take out whatever's left.
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
Sounds like a 6 on 6 game, so you could have had 2-3 onos and the rest as gorges.... or 2 onos, a lerk (spore spam) and a gorge or two. Stomp stomp bile bile under the cover of spore...... shouldn't be too hard. The trick is getting that GLer stomped long enough to get the team in.
TyrNemesis^
"Unfortunately, four skulks aren't going to take out a turret farm unless there's nobody at home defending it and it's not electrified."
I disagree. Mostly because I've seen few if any TFs that were safe from a skulk. Even electrified, I can get a bite or two in.
While marines turtling can be a problem, I have to ask myself - what are the aliens doing? If marines aren't leaving base, then aliens should be taking advantage by rushing marine spawn and laying it to waste. If the mentality is "marines aren't doing anything, so lets sit and wait for bit" then poor alien play starts to be the chief cause.
Granted there'll always be some teams where aliens just wont react fast enough to marine activity, and thus lose. But thats the way its meant to be - I don't think the game could or should be balanced to allow 2 good players in a team of 6 to win.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
An onos with redem isn't any sign of endgame. 1 shotgun would handle that guy. Anyway, ppl need to learn how to really play. Ive seen so many onos/redem, bah, stupid noobs. onos/regen/sof is a nice mix. also if some ppl would use the fade, it would help. And then the lerk support. Agh, its all up to the team to get it moving. If they don't, marines got a chance to return. Sry if I may be off topic, the people above me post too damn much for me to read at this hour.
You've set up a pretty poor hypothesis which serves only yourself. If I say "do blah blah blah" you'll just say you tried it or it couldnt be done. If I say nothing, you'll say "see, I was right".
Waste handling.......
And their spawn was lamed up beyond belief?
How did they get to this point? Did they purposefully lame up from game start? Or start laming midgame when they knew they werent going to win? What was the team size? How many players went lerk/onos and hit waste before it got lamed up?
You also of course realise that if they've lamed up both spawn and 1 hive to such an extent that you can't get in, then they've won the game. That doesnt make them poor players - it makes the alien team poor players who despite KNOWING that marines can do this, let it happen anyway.
I suppose the vents were welded shut too? So that leaves two ways into Waste. Not the worst it could be. Any armoury? So that leaves sporadic GL spam. TBH a double team of stomping Onos can cripple marines. I spent a game tonight as a GORGE standing beside an Onos, and as he spammed stomp I just healsprayed/acid spit marines to death. I managed a lot of kills, even nailing an HA.
I'd expect better from two Onos (you only need to stomp that GL right once, and once he's grounded things get easier) and if a whole alien team was rushing in, I don't see much standing a chance. Sure the onos will get a bit shot up, but at two hives you'll have MC and/or DC and thus can spam stomp with abandon. The gorges rush in and bile the PG. Then the group falls back, heals up a little, and goes in to take out whatever's left.
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
Sounds like a 6 on 6 game, so you could have had 2-3 onos and the rest as gorges.... or 2 onos, a lerk (spore spam) and a gorge or two. Stomp stomp bile bile under the cover of spore...... shouldn't be too hard. The trick is getting that GLer stomped long enough to get the team in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to have missed the entire point of naming Waste Handling as the hive.
Do you recall where the res node is in Waste Handling? That's right, it's at the top of a ladder. Onos stomp does not go up ladders. Onos's can only climb the ladder single file, and cannot get to the top at all if there are turrets blocking the top of the ladder.
There may be 2 or there may be half a dozen ways into the room, but if you can't get up the ladder, you can't take the marines out. Bile Bomb, being ballistic, has no chance of making it up there either.
So the very best you can do would be to have one Onos climbing up the ladder, maybe with Umbra, while a couple of Fades blinked up to the top. If they have enough turrets, HMGs, and electric stuff to beat off the Fades before the Onos can clear himself a path through the turrets and climb up, you have no way to beat them.
I think that the biggest single anti-Kharaa factor in 2.01 endgame is the overall weakness of acid rockets. They do not befit a tier 3 ability, with their poor splash radius, low damage, and huge energy cost. Functional AR would be the difference between stalemates and a brisk alien endgame, but would not inherently unbalance the game against marines who, despite facing three-hive aliens, still stand a chance. Even upgraded LMGs tear a fade apart, let's recall.
Marines relocating to a hive is a bit of a problem, but it is pretty risky overall. It essentially gambles on the ability of the marines to hold off those first few waves of aliens. And more often than not, they can't. We tend to forget those alien landslides, though, since they happen so fast. The marine victory that comes from a successful relocation gets counted as a "real game", though, and we notice them more. I don't know, it might just be the servers I play, but are most of your marine relocations successful?
I think that there should be some small factors introduced to keep marines from automatically winning with a single-hive lockdown, but then it is a pretty tricky thing to do against competent aliens. If marines can fight off an entire team of skulks and secure a hive with only a single reload of ammo and no respawns for the first few minutes, then the Kharaa made some mistakes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boltman+Sep 24 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boltman @ Sep 24 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are currently only 2 problems IMO: 1. No 1.0x maps are Onos friendly. None. In almost every one of them, outside the hive you have narrow hallways, where can only fit 1 Onos at best. Take a pick, bast, caged, eclipse, hera, tanith, nothing... but you can fit 8+ HAs with HMGs in there. What make marines good is not balance, but bad map design. Most MS are easy for the marines to defend, and most Hives are hard for the aliens to defend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, thin low hallways favor an onos. The counter to onos is JP, and this evens the playing field a little. In a huge room with high ceilings a JP would own an onos. Second, stomp is end game, stomp owns everything, especially HA. It renders them worthless for a good amount of time, has a pretty huge range making it capable of stunning huge groups of marines. Stomp is end game if the onos knows what they are doing. But obviously the onos will not win all by himself. If you stomp you need some back up, and that should be no problem considering the marines are completely still. Stomp is an end game. Teamwork is an end game. If you have good teamwork and attack with a couple fades, gorges, lerks, thats it. Nothing can beat that. Its not the fact that there is no end game, its that you guys dont use it, because on pubs no one has good teamwork.
Cx, YOU seem to have missed the entire point of my post.
I don't care about the RT. Unless their CC and IPs and TF are up there, I honestly don't care about it. I'd rather nix their base then mop up rather than charge the RT.
So my point still stands - you rush the ground floor and kill everything. If their IP, CC, TF, etc are all at the top of that ladder, then you can drop chambers to stand on, from which you can jump and bile. Lerks can spam spore the top of the ladder while other lerks sniper spike anything they can see. So the base goes down.
I hope you are happy that I have now countered your "base at top of ladder" hypothesis as well as the more realistic "base on the ground" plan.
"Bile Bomb, being ballistic, has no chance of making it up there either."
I'm fairly certain it reaches far enough up to clear the top of the ladder - certainly seems that way on an RC2 server. And assuming all rines are at the top of the ladder, you can spam up DC/MC at various blindspots as well as skulk wallrun up the wall beside the RT. Fades dont need the ladder either.
SlothropX -
"Even upgraded LMGs tear a fade apart, let's recall."
They have to SEE the Fade though. And since it only takes 2-3 AR to kill a LA marine, I dont see how making it an earlier weapon will not negatively imbalance aliens. Bear in mind Fade can fit into any vent in the game, and can snipe marines with total impunity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cx, YOU seem to have missed the entire point of my post. I don't care about the RT. Unless their CC and IPs and TF are up there, I honestly don't care about it. I'd rather nix their base then mop up rather than charge the RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OF COURSE they are up there, thats the whole point you miss completely, for christ's sake. Everything is there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If their IP, CC, TF, etc are all at the top of that ladder, then you can drop chambers to stand on, from which you can jump and bile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What can I say ? LMAO ! I just hope the lvl3 hmgers will let you, maybe because this would make them **** their pants laughing so they can't shoot at all and you can build your Piza tower ! :-D
Nevermind, 4 onos with regen covered by two umbra **** should have little problem, regardless of number of turrets. Even if marines killed two, the rest will be against empty hmg clips.
You could have 10 Onos with Umbra for all I care, they have to go up the ladder in single file, and if theres turrets at the edge of the ladder, they simply can't get up. A pair of HA/Welder will be immune to spore spam, and be able to weld the turret walls to keep out the Onos about as fast as one Onos can kill it, meanwhile the HMGers are blasting into it.
And one single siege gun will make sure you can't build any chamber towers. One Grenade Launcher will prevent Lerks from standing behind the pillars and spiking stuff. The space up there is so cramped that any charging fades will almost certainly be in range of both the Electrified TF and the electirfied Res node--that plus turrets and HMGs equals dead fades pretty fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Four marines can take out 6 OCs with no problem. All they need is a little medspam. Unfortunately, four skulks aren't going to take out a turret farm unless there's nobody at home defending it and it's not electrified.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I felt like singling this one out for some reason. 6 OC's is 60 res. A turretfarm for 60 res either has 4 turrets OR and electrified TF and ONE turret.
A "turretfarm" with 4-6 turrets will go down in less then 10 seconds to a team of four skulks if they go for the TF, More then likely, none of the skulks will be killed (if they have cara or regen). Only excessive amounts of static defense will hold if unguarded, anything less will only discourage solo attacks and provide a delay for grouped attacks.
Static defense that is guarded, be it alien or marine, is a lot harder to break. 4 OC + 2 DC and a gorge or skulk guarding it is a match for 6 LMG marines. A TF+4 Turrets and a Marine or two (with welders) can hold off 4 skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Sep 26 2003, 03:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Sep 26 2003, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Static defense that is guarded, be it alien or marine, is a lot harder to break. 4 OC + 2 DC and a gorge or skulk guarding it is a match for 6 LMG marines. A TF+4 Turrets and a Marine or two (with welders) can hold off 4 skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The differences only show up under unusual circumstances:
. A turret farm is a more effective defensive force multiplier for HA than a WOL is for oni. Mostly because really huge game-ending WOLs obstruct onos movement, while really huge game-ending turret farms don't really obstruct marine fields of fire. . If the aliens pour all their resources into laming up a hive, and pull all their forces back to defend that hive, the marines can just shrug and build a siege farm. If the marines completely turtle, the aliens have to slowly eat away at marine defenses.
I agree that it takes a lot more effort for Aliens to beat a dug-in max upgraded Marine team then for a Marine team to kill the last hive. This is because Alien upgrades are removed as they start losing, whereas Marines not neccesarily are.
This means it is harder for 3-hive aliens to kill a Marine base with lvl 3/3 HA's then for a lvl 3/3 HA squad to take down the last hive. But they are incomparable since in one case it is a fight between two teams at their end tech and the other isn't. That's just the way the game works (mot of the time).
If the marines are capable of holding a hive and MS you aren't quite at end game yet.
Dealing with a 1 hive lockdown when there is major GL spammage backed up with HMGers is tougher then a straight 3rd hive end game MS assault (even if marines have HA) in my opinion. It probably takes more teamwork and coordination to break this sort of stalemate.
Multiple Onos are required and Stomp/Devour is your friend in this scenario.
I'll summarize a plan of action I've seen organized and have organized myself.
- ensure containment, seal off both entrances out of the MS and Locked Hive ensuring that no marines can escape
- ensure that the marines have no RTs outside the contained areas
<u>Softening Up Phase</u>
- maintain pressure on MS and Hive, keep them moving between areas and don't let them mass in one place.
- [edit]to ensure they don't counter-counter it is important to try to take out the RTs in their MS/Hive Lockdowns. This is purely based on the design of the room so this option might not always be available. Individual necessary, high-cost buildings such as Arms Lab/Protolab can be targeted by skulks with umbra support if possible.[/edit]
-[edit]the goal is to make them spend resources, slowing them from teching or replacing turrets/buildings, while you prepare and organize the following phases.[/edit]
- priority target is the 3rd Hive
- as we know COMMs compensate for turret light damage by spamming more turrets, their field of turrets must be reduced at the Hive before the assault
- you will lose more then a few gorges and skulks at this phase because they have to be aggressive
- Skulks rush the Hive and Gorges push up to within BB range. They target 1) PGs 2) Tfacs and 3) Turrets
- Support Skulks and Gorges with Lerks (Umbra)
- if you can't get at the PG/Tfac at the very least take out as many turrets as you can
- for the most part Bile Bomb and Umbra will be very effective but lets assume the GL spammage is that bad...
<u>Assault Phase</u>
- if the majority of them are HA/GLs then it is important the Onos takes that into consideration whent they are getting upgrades
- 1 Onos becomes the "Stomp Onos" he should have Adren/SoF (any DC up) to sustain stompage and know where to direct them
- the majority of Onos become "Devour Onoses" they should have Celebrity and anything other then Redeem for DC up, your goal is to devour HA/GLers and get away. They can have any SC up.
- Lerks/Gorges must have adren for Umbra/Bile Bomb
- at the <b>moment of least resistance</b> the Onos pack rushes Hive with Umbra support. The Stomp Onos does nothing but stomps marines stunning them. The Devour Onoses aim to eat HA/GLers and HA/HMGers if and when they become too damaged retreat immediately to finish digesting. In this chaos the Gorges must concentrate Bile Bombing 1) PGs 2) Tfacs.
- if all goes well the hive is yours. Now you have a 3rd Hive and move into planning End Game Assaults with 3rd hive capabilities
<u>Additional Considerations</u>
- this counter is obviously very teamplay orientated but it is very possible and very fun. I took a few days to organize this on pub servers. Everytime a team used teamwork it succeeded, and those that weren't failed because of the lack of coordination.
- the assault should take into consideration the number of entrances, the location of the "building cluster", and the general area where marines are spamming from. try to attack from multiple sides, don't let them bottleneck you with 'nades
- if may help to do "fake assault" just to get them to shoot at the same time. if they are effective spammers they can keep a steady rain of 'nades on the entrances, however if they think they are being assaulted everyone will fire more frequently and the hope is to catch a majority of them reloading at once
<u>Possible Counter-Counter</u>
- I have COMM'd games that have resulted in 1 Hive Lockdown supported by mines, HMGs and heavy GL spammage. The res flow plus occational frag bonuses (I've noticed against a decent aliens team at this stage they lose very few aliens, it just GL-induced stalemate) is pretty decent. If there is lots of down time between major organized, "buildings/turrets-needs-replacing type assaults I have resources to max out the tech.
- with JPs I arm 2-3 JP/SGs. they hit targets of opportunity like open RTs and Hives, avoiding heavily defended areas. The goal is to inflict enough damage to require a significant rebuilding effort and investment of resource.
- the aliens may lose 2 RTs and 1 Hive (but that means 70 res and the time to build them) and prolly won't sit back to see a 2nd hive taken out. If your JPs can threaten and put enough pressure on the 2nd hive to divert a large alien force to defend then the pressure will be slightly relieved on base/hive.
- At this point HA/GLs/SGs/HMGs should begin to push out and creep for more RTs. pick the path of least resistance and try to lock another hive down once the resources are secure to fund a try.
- the overall strategy is to inflict one large blow, probably not enough to kill them but enough to knock them off their feet. Then keep them off-balance as long as you can while you work to get into a better position.
-this counter-counter is really map dependent. If your MS and the Hive you have locked down is easy to defend with GL spam then you can allocate more marines for the Hit-n-Jet Squad, but some maps may not be as JP friendly, allowing aliens to contain you effectively with OCs/DCs/SCs.
Comments
Seems simple enough to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, you've probably heard it before, but the situation is actually worse than ever. With Onos' charge being completely neutered and the marine cost of equipment so low, the aliens have very little opportunity to finish games where the marines are determined to drag it out.
A perfect example of this is ns_caged. If the marines have had a decent enough game getting upgrades, there can be a situation where the aliens completely dominate the map, the marines are holed up in their base, and there is very little the aliens can do about it. They can charge in periodically, but with upgraded weapons and a few hmgs and shotties lying around, even an Onos won't survive for more than 5 seconds. Coordinated attacks don't get the job done. And the marines, with that one res node, can just wait it out until they've suited up an entire team of HA/HMG/GL/Shotties. Then, just wait in base for another alien surge, destroy everyone, and then march through the map uncontested.
This is not the way the game should be.
What the aliens need is for charge to actually be useful again, and acid rocket needs to be worthy of a 3 hive attack. Beef it up and increase the splash damage. Make primal scream more potent in some way.
3 hive aliens need to be brought back to where they were in 1.04, when they were actually something to be feared. Right now, they are a joke.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without better ranged attacks, the aliens can't effectively engage a defensive minded marine team. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I HATE the way some things about the aleins are in 2.01
-OCs that die faster then you can build them and do nothing late game!
-umbra that doesn't block enough
-BB that doesn't do enough DMG
-Xeano that people can survive 2 times!
yada, yada
The marine are going to start OWNING the kharaa come 2.1
--Rebalance marine weapons to be fair without being recoverable
--Allow aliens to build 3rd Hive in Marine Spawn if marines are in a hive location. This doesn't mean they should ever be able to have 4 hives, just an easier time of getting three.
Either of these would put a deisive stop to the painfully slow endgames that result when marines hole up in a hive.
But that wouldn't solve the MS lock down problem!
But that wouldn't solve the MS lock down problem! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you get 3 hives, it's GG for the marine team, no matter what...
Seriously, one of the best ways to win would be to all go gorge, get adren, regen, go in and build tons of crap in there, bilebomb, and mass web. The marines won't stand a chance.
But that wouldn't solve the MS lock down problem! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you get 3 hives, it's GG for the marine team, no matter what...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not true....
Ask Beast if you wont take my word for it.
I have played ENOUGH games on a few maps (viel, hara, eclipse, come to mind) Where the Kharaa had a good team, all the res -1 (in MS), all 3 hives and the marine still were able to keep us out with farms and GL spam (this was in 2.01e), HMG and HA. They teched up mid game and had enough res to equip everyone when they started to lose. They held the MS for over an hour with constand attack from Xeano skulks, gorges, fades, lerks, onii. IT SUCKED! The aliens just got fed up and F4ed.
but I understand why people wouldn't want that
So while I think it would kill the 2 hive stalemate, it might also kill relocations. I guess it depends on weather or not Flayra agrees with relocation or not... ?
If that isn't possible, acid rockets.
One of the most defendable positions on any map is Hera Reception on ns_hera. Max upgraded Marines in HA there, this is how we solve it:
Get a load of M and D chambers up at the end of the hallway leading from MS to Hera. Have 3-4 Fades there, with Umbra from a lerk who's hanging back. Everyone just spam acid.
The rest of the team just keep attacking in waves, xeno skulks, devouring/stomping onos and suicide bilebombing gorges. Base down.
There is NO way to stop an Alien team with 3 hives and plenty of res. No way. The ONLY reasons it takes long is:
- Alien players are stupid. They don't realise what the correct way of doing it is.
- Alien players are lazy. They know they've won so they just mess around while Marines slowly reach their end tech.
The problem that induces "stalemates" like this is that when a hive isn't being attacked and aliens are winning, they refuse to use teamwork. Skulks just run in and die, feeding Marines res (usually giving the COM more like 2-3 nodes then 1), lerks spore, gorges lame up other parts of the map and onos just wait outside the base for someone to devour.
The problem isn't the game, it's you.
Wrong. Mass base rushes designed to hit the important structures DO work. 2 hive aliens can annihilate any base. Ranged weapons are useless because most marine bases have no direct LOS in or out.
I've cracked bases, so I know it works. And I'm playing on a server with some excellent marine opponents.
Second - If you pick a Regen onos, or perhaps a Cara onos with gorge backup, and go on a SUICIDE run, then you'll mangle most base defenses in short order.
IF, and I mean IF, the marines turtle so much that you can't get into the hive, then tbh its aliens fault for lack of earlier action. Can't afford to let rines get dug in. The best you can do in that situation is storm the base with Onos/Fade/Skulks and rush the TF, followed by the CC/research structures. Spore and Umbra support is CRITICAL.
If your team is unwilling to participate in a team attack on base, then IMHO thats just unfortunate for you. I don't see how aliens/marines need to boosted to compensate for poor players.
Marine endgame - HA+HMG marine dies. The marine can be fully outfitted and at the front lines of the battle within 5 seconds. (Phase gate, instant equipment)
Alien endgame - Onos dies. The onos can be re-evolved, upgraded, and at the front lines within ... 60 seconds. Some maps it's worse.
I've cracked bases, so I know it works. And I'm playing on a server with some excellent marine opponents<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
No, we didn;t make a substantial effort to take out MS, which was lamed up beyond beleif. We did little things liek bile-bombing the MS rt, but that's not gonna help. And IF we managed to take out MS, can you imagine what it'd be like if the whole marine team was defending waste? seriuosly?
EDIT:: yes, this is the one with only 1 ladder up to the top, the one which can't be bile-bombed from below...
EDIT2:: oh and btw, there was more than that defending waste. When we tried attacking AS A TEAM, there was a gl, 2 hmgs, a heavy, 2 lmg marines, and 6 turrets.
NS endgames are going to be in Marines' favor as long as Marines have RFK. It punishes aliens for being the suicide machines they were designed to be. Imagine an early game where the aliens never attacked marine spawn, but instead only very cautiously nipped the heads off any marines that expanded to an RT. That would be a very short round that would end humiliatingly for the marines, because without those RFK, they would lack the res to tech up early on, and 2nd-hive aliens would completely annihilate them.
Unfortunately, the situation usually involves Marines turtling and teching up until they're strong enough to burst free from their base in an unstoppable fashion. Four HA\HMGs with welders who use adequate teamwork can stop anything that comes after them, including onoses.
Marines should be punished for camping in their base, not rewarded. Instead, Aliens are the ones who get punished for doing so. Aliens, who're a hive-based race that grows and changes like a virus, should grow stronger with time. At hive 2 and hive 3, respectively, OCs should receive upgrades to health and offensive power. THEY ARE USELESS EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME! Four marines can take out 6 OCs with no problem. All they need is a little medspam. Unfortunately, four skulks aren't going to take out a turret farm unless there's nobody at home defending it and it's not electrified.
So, in short, I think the biggest problems with Marines' endgame capabilities are a) The ease with which they can maintain an economy while turtling with one ONE RESNODE, and b) HA welder orgies.
<span style='color:red'>Remove Marine RFK!</span>
Alien endgame - Onos dies. The onos can be re-evolved, upgraded, and at the front lines within ... 60 seconds. Some maps it's worse."
Yes, that would be the balance that has been addressed in other threads - marines have permanent upgrades, and BARRING REDEMPTION, aliens have slow upgrades. Which makes sense in the bigger picture.
Kobayashi -
You've set up a pretty poor hypothesis which serves only yourself. If I say "do blah blah blah" you'll just say you tried it or it couldnt be done. If I say nothing, you'll say "see, I was right".
Waste handling.......
And their spawn was lamed up beyond belief?
How did they get to this point? Did they purposefully lame up from game start? Or start laming midgame when they knew they werent going to win? What was the team size? How many players went lerk/onos and hit waste before it got lamed up?
You also of course realise that if they've lamed up both spawn and 1 hive to such an extent that you can't get in, then they've won the game. That doesnt make them poor players - it makes the alien team poor players who despite KNOWING that marines can do this, let it happen anyway.
I suppose the vents were welded shut too? So that leaves two ways into Waste. Not the worst it could be. Any armoury? So that leaves sporadic GL spam. TBH a double team of stomping Onos can cripple marines. I spent a game tonight as a GORGE standing beside an Onos, and as he spammed stomp I just healsprayed/acid spit marines to death. I managed a lot of kills, even nailing an HA.
I'd expect better from two Onos (you only need to stomp that GL right once, and once he's grounded things get easier) and if a whole alien team was rushing in, I don't see much standing a chance. Sure the onos will get a bit shot up, but at two hives you'll have MC and/or DC and thus can spam stomp with abandon. The gorges rush in and bile the PG. Then the group falls back, heals up a little, and goes in to take out whatever's left.
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
Sounds like a 6 on 6 game, so you could have had 2-3 onos and the rest as gorges.... or 2 onos, a lerk (spore spam) and a gorge or two. Stomp stomp bile bile under the cover of spore...... shouldn't be too hard. The trick is getting that GLer stomped long enough to get the team in.
TyrNemesis^
"Unfortunately, four skulks aren't going to take out a turret farm unless there's nobody at home defending it and it's not electrified."
I disagree. Mostly because I've seen few if any TFs that were safe from a skulk. Even electrified, I can get a bite or two in.
While marines turtling can be a problem, I have to ask myself - what are the aliens doing? If marines aren't leaving base, then aliens should be taking advantage by rushing marine spawn and laying it to waste. If the mentality is "marines aren't doing anything, so lets sit and wait for bit" then poor alien play starts to be the chief cause.
Granted there'll always be some teams where aliens just wont react fast enough to marine activity, and thus lose. But thats the way its meant to be - I don't think the game could or should be balanced to allow 2 good players in a team of 6 to win.
Sry if I may be off topic, the people above me post too damn much for me to read at this hour.
You've set up a pretty poor hypothesis which serves only yourself. If I say "do blah blah blah" you'll just say you tried it or it couldnt be done. If I say nothing, you'll say "see, I was right".
Waste handling.......
And their spawn was lamed up beyond belief?
How did they get to this point? Did they purposefully lame up from game start? Or start laming midgame when they knew they werent going to win? What was the team size? How many players went lerk/onos and hit waste before it got lamed up?
You also of course realise that if they've lamed up both spawn and 1 hive to such an extent that you can't get in, then they've won the game. That doesnt make them poor players - it makes the alien team poor players who despite KNOWING that marines can do this, let it happen anyway.
I suppose the vents were welded shut too? So that leaves two ways into Waste. Not the worst it could be. Any armoury? So that leaves sporadic GL spam. TBH a double team of stomping Onos can cripple marines. I spent a game tonight as a GORGE standing beside an Onos, and as he spammed stomp I just healsprayed/acid spit marines to death. I managed a lot of kills, even nailing an HA.
I'd expect better from two Onos (you only need to stomp that GL right once, and once he's grounded things get easier) and if a whole alien team was rushing in, I don't see much standing a chance. Sure the onos will get a bit shot up, but at two hives you'll have MC and/or DC and thus can spam stomp with abandon. The gorges rush in and bile the PG. Then the group falls back, heals up a little, and goes in to take out whatever's left.
Then I dare you to take on waste handling. 2 marines with hmgs, and about 4 turrets (more being dropped almost constatnly), a elec tf, and a pg. Want to make it worse? how about giving the marines HA and welders for another 40 res? or a few suicidal lmg marines that just keep poping thorugh the phase?
Sounds like a 6 on 6 game, so you could have had 2-3 onos and the rest as gorges.... or 2 onos, a lerk (spore spam) and a gorge or two. Stomp stomp bile bile under the cover of spore...... shouldn't be too hard. The trick is getting that GLer stomped long enough to get the team in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to have missed the entire point of naming Waste Handling as the hive.
Do you recall where the res node is in Waste Handling? That's right, it's at the top of a ladder. Onos stomp does not go up ladders. Onos's can only climb the ladder single file, and cannot get to the top at all if there are turrets blocking the top of the ladder.
There may be 2 or there may be half a dozen ways into the room, but if you can't get up the ladder, you can't take the marines out. Bile Bomb, being ballistic, has no chance of making it up there either.
So the very best you can do would be to have one Onos climbing up the ladder, maybe with Umbra, while a couple of Fades blinked up to the top. If they have enough turrets, HMGs, and electric stuff to beat off the Fades before the Onos can clear himself a path through the turrets and climb up, you have no way to beat them.
Marines relocating to a hive is a bit of a problem, but it is pretty risky overall. It essentially gambles on the ability of the marines to hold off those first few waves of aliens. And more often than not, they can't. We tend to forget those alien landslides, though, since they happen so fast. The marine victory that comes from a successful relocation gets counted as a "real game", though, and we notice them more. I don't know, it might just be the servers I play, but are most of your marine relocations successful?
I think that there should be some small factors introduced to keep marines from automatically winning with a single-hive lockdown, but then it is a pretty tricky thing to do against competent aliens. If marines can fight off an entire team of skulks and secure a hive with only a single reload of ammo and no respawns for the first few minutes, then the Kharaa made some mistakes.
1. No 1.0x maps are Onos friendly. None. In almost every one of them, outside the hive you have narrow hallways, where can only fit 1 Onos at best. Take a pick, bast, caged, eclipse, hera, tanith, nothing... but you can fit 8+ HAs with HMGs in there. What make marines good is not balance, but bad map design. Most MS are easy for the marines to defend, and most Hives are hard for the aliens to defend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, thin low hallways favor an onos. The counter to onos is JP, and this evens the playing field a little. In a huge room with high ceilings a JP would own an onos. Second, stomp is end game, stomp owns everything, especially HA. It renders them worthless for a good amount of time, has a pretty huge range making it capable of stunning huge groups of marines. Stomp is end game if the onos knows what they are doing. But obviously the onos will not win all by himself. If you stomp you need some back up, and that should be no problem considering the marines are completely still. Stomp is an end game. Teamwork is an end game. If you have good teamwork and attack with a couple fades, gorges, lerks, thats it. Nothing can beat that. Its not the fact that there is no end game, its that you guys dont use it, because on pubs no one has good teamwork.
I don't care about the RT. Unless their CC and IPs and TF are up there, I honestly don't care about it. I'd rather nix their base then mop up rather than charge the RT.
So my point still stands - you rush the ground floor and kill everything. If their IP, CC, TF, etc are all at the top of that ladder, then you can drop chambers to stand on, from which you can jump and bile. Lerks can spam spore the top of the ladder while other lerks sniper spike anything they can see. So the base goes down.
I hope you are happy that I have now countered your "base at top of ladder" hypothesis as well as the more realistic "base on the ground" plan.
"Bile Bomb, being ballistic, has no chance of making it up there either."
I'm fairly certain it reaches far enough up to clear the top of the ladder - certainly seems that way on an RC2 server. And assuming all rines are at the top of the ladder, you can spam up DC/MC at various blindspots as well as skulk wallrun up the wall beside the RT. Fades dont need the ladder either.
SlothropX -
"Even upgraded LMGs tear a fade apart, let's recall."
They have to SEE the Fade though. And since it only takes 2-3 AR to kill a LA marine, I dont see how making it an earlier weapon will not negatively imbalance aliens. Bear in mind Fade can fit into any vent in the game, and can snipe marines with total impunity.
OF COURSE they are up there, thats the whole point you miss completely, for christ's sake. Everything is there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If their IP, CC, TF, etc are all at the top of that ladder, then you can drop chambers to stand on, from which you can jump and bile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What can I say ? LMAO ! I just hope the lvl3 hmgers will let you, maybe because this would make them **** their pants laughing so they can't shoot at all and you can build your Piza tower ! :-D
Nevermind, 4 onos with regen covered by two umbra **** should have little problem, regardless of number of turrets. Even if marines killed two, the rest will be against empty hmg clips.
And one single siege gun will make sure you can't build any chamber towers. One Grenade Launcher will prevent Lerks from standing behind the pillars and spiking stuff. The space up there is so cramped that any charging fades will almost certainly be in range of both the Electrified TF and the electirfied Res node--that plus turrets and HMGs equals dead fades pretty fast.
I felt like singling this one out for some reason. 6 OC's is 60 res. A turretfarm for 60 res either has 4 turrets OR and electrified TF and ONE turret.
A "turretfarm" with 4-6 turrets will go down in less then 10 seconds to a team of four skulks if they go for the TF, More then likely, none of the skulks will be killed (if they have cara or regen). Only excessive amounts of static defense will hold if unguarded, anything less will only discourage solo attacks and provide a delay for grouped attacks.
Static defense that is guarded, be it alien or marine, is a lot harder to break. 4 OC + 2 DC and a gorge or skulk guarding it is a match for 6 LMG marines. A TF+4 Turrets and a Marine or two (with welders) can hold off 4 skulks.
The differences only show up under unusual circumstances:
. A turret farm is a more effective defensive force multiplier for HA than a WOL is for oni. Mostly because really huge game-ending WOLs obstruct onos movement, while really huge game-ending turret farms don't really obstruct marine fields of fire.
. If the aliens pour all their resources into laming up a hive, and pull all their forces back to defend that hive, the marines can just shrug and build a siege farm. If the marines completely turtle, the aliens have to slowly eat away at marine defenses.
This means it is harder for 3-hive aliens to kill a Marine base with lvl 3/3 HA's then for a lvl 3/3 HA squad to take down the last hive. But they are incomparable since in one case it is a fight between two teams at their end tech and the other isn't. That's just the way the game works (mot of the time).
Dealing with a 1 hive lockdown when there is major GL spammage backed up with HMGers is tougher then a straight 3rd hive end game MS assault (even if marines have HA) in my opinion. It probably takes more teamwork and coordination to break this sort of stalemate.
Multiple Onos are required and Stomp/Devour is your friend in this scenario.
I'll summarize a plan of action I've seen organized and have organized myself.
<u><b>1 Hive Lockdown/Super GL Spammage Counter</b></u>
<u>Containment Phase</u>
- ensure containment, seal off both entrances out of the MS and Locked Hive ensuring that no marines can escape
- ensure that the marines have no RTs outside the contained areas
<u>Softening Up Phase</u>
- maintain pressure on MS and Hive, keep them moving between areas and don't let them mass in one place.
- [edit]to ensure they don't counter-counter it is important to try to take out the RTs in their MS/Hive Lockdowns. This is purely based on the design of the room so this option might not always be available. Individual necessary, high-cost buildings such as Arms Lab/Protolab can be targeted by skulks with umbra support if possible.[/edit]
-[edit]the goal is to make them spend resources, slowing them from teching or replacing turrets/buildings, while you prepare and organize the following phases.[/edit]
- priority target is the 3rd Hive
- as we know COMMs compensate for turret light damage by spamming more turrets, their field of turrets must be reduced at the Hive before the assault
- you will lose more then a few gorges and skulks at this phase because they have to be aggressive
- Skulks rush the Hive and Gorges push up to within BB range. They target 1) PGs 2) Tfacs and 3) Turrets
- Support Skulks and Gorges with Lerks (Umbra)
- if you can't get at the PG/Tfac at the very least take out as many turrets as you can
- for the most part Bile Bomb and Umbra will be very effective but lets assume the GL spammage is that bad...
<u>Assault Phase</u>
- if the majority of them are HA/GLs then it is important the Onos takes that into consideration whent they are getting upgrades
- 1 Onos becomes the "Stomp Onos" he should have Adren/SoF (any DC up) to sustain stompage and know where to direct them
- the majority of Onos become "Devour Onoses" they should have Celebrity and anything other then Redeem for DC up, your goal is to devour HA/GLers and get away. They can have any SC up.
- Lerks/Gorges must have adren for Umbra/Bile Bomb
- at the <b>moment of least resistance</b> the Onos pack rushes Hive with Umbra support. The Stomp Onos does nothing but stomps marines stunning them. The Devour Onoses aim to eat HA/GLers and HA/HMGers if and when they become too damaged retreat immediately to finish digesting. In this chaos the Gorges must concentrate Bile Bombing 1) PGs 2) Tfacs.
- if all goes well the hive is yours. Now you have a 3rd Hive and move into planning End Game Assaults with 3rd hive capabilities
<u>Additional Considerations</u>
- this counter is obviously very teamplay orientated but it is very possible and very fun. I took a few days to organize this on pub servers. Everytime a team used teamwork it succeeded, and those that weren't failed because of the lack of coordination.
- the assault should take into consideration the number of entrances, the location of the "building cluster", and the general area where marines are spamming from. try to attack from multiple sides, don't let them bottleneck you with 'nades
- if may help to do "fake assault" just to get them to shoot at the same time. if they are effective spammers they can keep a steady rain of 'nades on the entrances, however if they think they are being assaulted everyone will fire more frequently and the hope is to catch a majority of them reloading at once
<u>Possible Counter-Counter</u>
- I have COMM'd games that have resulted in 1 Hive Lockdown supported by mines, HMGs and heavy GL spammage. The res flow plus occational frag bonuses (I've noticed against a decent aliens team at this stage they lose very few aliens, it just GL-induced stalemate) is pretty decent. If there is lots of down time between major organized, "buildings/turrets-needs-replacing type assaults I have resources to max out the tech.
- with JPs I arm 2-3 JP/SGs. they hit targets of opportunity like open RTs and Hives, avoiding heavily defended areas. The goal is to inflict enough damage to require a significant rebuilding effort and investment of resource.
- the aliens may lose 2 RTs and 1 Hive (but that means 70 res and the time to build them) and prolly won't sit back to see a 2nd hive taken out. If your JPs can threaten and put enough pressure on the 2nd hive to divert a large alien force to defend then the pressure will be slightly relieved on base/hive.
- At this point HA/GLs/SGs/HMGs should begin to push out and creep for more RTs. pick the path of least resistance and try to lock another hive down once the resources are secure to fund a try.
- the overall strategy is to inflict one large blow, probably not enough to kill them but enough to knock them off their feet. Then keep them off-balance as long as you can while you work to get into a better position.
-this counter-counter is really map dependent. If your MS and the Hive you have locked down is easy to defend with GL spam then you can allocate more marines for the Hit-n-Jet Squad, but some maps may not be as JP friendly, allowing aliens to contain you effectively with OCs/DCs/SCs.