Why Always Ha?
DFAVengeance
Join Date: 2003-09-23 Member: 21145Members
Join Date: 2003-09-23 Member: 21145Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why do most comms always get HA over JP?</div> I'm a little lost. Most commanders i see go for massive squads of heavy armor. Yes i know they are immune to spores but they arent that great vs smart onos (e.g 6 has make turn a corner, two onos waiting for them immediatly cross stun them with stomp and hten two of them are devoured, 2onos v 4ha now and by the time the ha are no longer stunned another heavy is probably dead, and at close range 3ha are probably gonna die because i doubt the comm made the whole party w/o nades and they're the ones who'll be killed last)
I dont get it, ppl keep saying heavies aren't countered by onos but i've never seen a smart alien team die to ha when they got onos. some1 enlighten me?
I dont get it, ppl keep saying heavies aren't countered by onos but i've never seen a smart alien team die to ha when they got onos. some1 enlighten me?
Comments
If the aliens relized that spore damage stacks as long as there are mulitple lerks then even a jet packer has little change.
I dont get it, ppl keep saying heavies aren't countered by onos but i've never seen a smart alien team die to ha when they got onos. some1 enlighten me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen an onos survive a group of 5 HA. Only rambo HA gets eaten by the Onos.
You can't rely on having Skilled (or even remotely intelligent beings) in a pub marine team in sufficient number to make a nice JP squad.
So HA is easier, you just walk around, While in JP there is a thousand flying style you can use.
JP's are sometimes better against onos then HA (if the ceilings are high enough, which is rare). HA is better then JP against everything else.
A full team of HA = win 97% of the time.
A full team of JP = Well... the only time this happens is when I've won and the whole HA squad suicides and gets beaconed in, to have JP's in the Ready Room.
They're also slower and less likely to run off, or atleast get very far...
I'll make a small JP+SG squad in emergency situations, or if I know I have three good players...
I've seen small squads (3-4) of JP take out entire hives.
JPs have been nerfed way too much. If you can strike a hive without needing HAs , most of the time it's better to send in vanilla shotgunners instead of spending 35 res on the JP tech and 15 more res per marine.
If you think about the considerable side nerfs (piercing HMG damage , smaller shotgun chamber , increased weight impact on flight , lessened JP agility) and the following facts :
-rushing to destroy the 2nd hive no longer means GG
-lerks can use spores to flush out JPers
-fades can reach JPers with ease
...then the 1.04 JP price seems more than reasonable.
When the devs took the decision to "sacrifice balance for fun" right before 2.0 was out , they obviously forgot the JP <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
You know something went wrong when vanilla HAs with welders are more viable than vanilla JPers...
I'm sorry that some people didn't find it fun for just any old nub with a good graphic card to be able to rambo a hive even when it was defended by 8 oc's, 4 dc's under it, and multiple aliens trying to take down the jper.
I'm sorry that some people didn't find it fun for just any old nub with a good graphic card to be able to rambo a hive even when it was defended by 8 oc's, 4 dc's under it, and multiple aliens trying to take down the jper. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't misunderstand me , I like the new JP , especially since I run NS on my crappy athlon 800 with a lame graphic card , what I find ridiculous is the price of it. While every bit of marine equipment has a lowered price , the JP equipment and research costs have been increased. It's protolab tech for Marx's sake...
Besides , it has been made impossible to rambo hives. Now the JP is about as useful as pheromones on pubs. You need a masochist marine team to see them.
Pub games - HA vs Onos
Clan games - JPs vs Fades
I believe thats the fundamental difference. To elaborate, in Pub play you generally cannot count on team support. So you spend the res on toughness - HA/onos.
In clan play, you KNOW what other people are capable of AND what they are doing. So you can go Fade with security. Fades can't take down units of clan HAs, but they can bog down their advance long enough for more Fades to saturate the area.
Fades are also very very fast, and HA just can't keep up. Without a PG, your base WILL be totalled while your HA are halfway to the nearest hive. Solution? JPs. You drop JPs with confidence, since the team KNOW how to use them.
From watching a lot of clan games I notice the play is more aggressive, opportunistic. Pub play is more defensive, less "risky" - if thats the word.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've never seen an onos survive a group of 5 HA. Only rambo HA gets eaten by the Onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos aren't always stupid enough to attack squads of heavy armor to the death, they usually are smart and just stomp and devour and run. Also onos are rarely alone unless the alien team is loaded with morons, normally when i see an onos there is another onos, lerk support, 1 or 2 gorges healing and fade support with them. Its rare that an onos is dumb enough to take on 5 has by himself unless hes planning to take them down slowly over time.
Pub games - HA vs Onos
Clan games - JPs vs Fades
I believe thats the fundamental difference. To elaborate, in Pub play you generally cannot count on team support. So you spend the res on toughness - HA/onos.
In clan play, you KNOW what other people are capable of AND what they are doing. So you can go Fade with security. Fades can't take down units of clan HAs, but they can bog down their advance long enough for more Fades to saturate the area.
Fades are also very very fast, and HA just can't keep up. Without a PG, your base WILL be totalled while your HA are halfway to the nearest hive. Solution? JPs. You drop JPs with confidence, since the team KNOW how to use them.
From watching a lot of clan games I notice the play is more aggressive, opportunistic. Pub play is more defensive, less "risky" - if thats the word. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is an excellent assessment of the issue.
I just want to add that jetpacks are still very valuable on a pub. You just have to be extremely patient with them. Experienced fade players know that the way to play a fade is to run at the first sign of resistance. This is the same way you play a jetpack. A jetpack is faster over short distances than any other creature in the game. That means that you should theoretically never get hit because as long as you can anticipate a blow you can dodge it. Don't try to stay in the air; instead save your energy for baiting the skulk close and then rocketting away in time. Note a definate advantage for 2.0 jetpacks: <b><i>no falling damage</i></b>. You never have to use energy to float down.
In a recent scrim I managed to hold a jetpack shotty and stay alive in a hive for about 10 minutes. I only got 5 or 6 kills in that time but the more important part is I absorbed the attention of the majority of the team for that time. I'm not trying to brag; I just want to illustrate that it's more important to stay alive than to cause damage, which confuses most people, as it's the opposite of how you're usually supposed to play a light marine. I think the reason HA is given out on pubs is because people can instantly feel the weight of all the res that was spent on you and automatically change to a more conservative style of play. The jetpack is so light (metaphorically and in terms of game physics) that you still feel like a light marine and take risks that you shouldn't with 30 dollars of gear on.
I tried a jp only round commanding on ns_lost, aliens started in cargo which imo is the second most jp friendly hive in any official map.
long story short, without ha we could not hold any positions, and we could not effectively attack any position if aliens defended it.
The mortality rate of jp is sickening, I sent 6 jp shotguns to cargo, no more than 3 of them made it to the hive, only 1 survived the battle, although the hive did die, we lost 125 res in equipment and the aliens only lost 50 res to gorge and re-up the hive instantly. So there are only 2 situations where jp will be viable:
A) team skill is so great that they will not die
b) marines have locked down at least twice as many nodes as the enemy and can afford to spend double the enemy on equipment.
I'd much, much rather have JP/HMG than HA/HMG when fighting all lifeforms, excluding a xenocide skulk or an acid-rocket fade. A regen/celerity onos don't stand a chance against even one marine with a HMG and level 3 weapons, as long as that marine is able to pursue it. JP's allow for just that.
The mobility boost that JP's provide is exactly what the marines need to be on par with the fast, stealthy Kharaa ranks, making them useful in almost any situation.
This is why its JP vs Fade in the clan battles.
While you could pwn an onos, you yourself admit you'd prefer HA against a fade.
So it all makes sense, really.
As for combining the two..... tbh rambo HA don't last long, and 2 HA can be snuffed in short order by one onos. As I see it, go HA in bulk and give good competent Ninjas the JPs. An intelligent JPer needs virtually no support, and I've seen them win games virtually singlehanded.
But you wont see that on most pubs, thats why they're HA dominated. Likewise, noone needs HA against Fades in clan scrims, thats why they're (certainly at top level) JP dominated.
The only official map that is extremly difficult for jpers is probably mineshaft, except for the hives there is almost no place u can go high enough to evade a jumping celerity onos
Well, against an <i>acid rocket</i> fade, yes, I'd rather have HA (unless in a large room). Same with a xenociding skulk; both of these attacks generally occur faster than a JP can respond to and deal heavy damage. But in both cases, the aliens have three hives, and tbh if the aliens have got up three hives, the game is lost already. Against any two hive lifeform, and most three hive ones, I'd much rather have a JP.
HA is just a much more sure investment. But i do agree that coms should get jp tech, cause you never know when a jp will come in handy. (vent attacks own most aliens on pubs, cause onos can't get in, and they rarely go fade.)
The man speaks the truth. If you're about to bleed to an Onos base rape, get your rear into JPs and rush their hive. Hover on it, shooting and giggling, and if you're really lucky they'll run to defend the hive.
Even if they stomp your base, they're one hive down, and you can cheerfully fly to the next hive and repeat the procedure.
Honestly, good JP = win on the pubs.
Edit - Just to clarify, since it MIGHT sound contradictory.... JPs destroy pub players, but only if the JPer is good. However, separate from SKILL is the fact that HA are generally harder to kill for 90% pubbers. Thus, although lesser in skill, its the more popular because its more *effective*. And effectiveness is the buzzword of the game.
I dont get it, ppl keep saying heavies aren't countered by onos but i've never seen a smart alien team die to ha when they got onos. some1 enlighten me? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen an onos survive a group of 5 HA. Only rambo HA gets eaten by the Onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is correct
however JP allows you to get around, most people are disapointed in then due to higher cost and non FPS dependent, which means your flying time is limited no matter what...
as comm it depends on the situation, and with 2.01 rc1 and 2 OC's track JPers much less accurately
buuut like people have posted aswell most pubs don't have people experienced enough with JPs to make them as sure an investment as HA, something that creates and completes a cycle of relatively JP-less public play =s
remember that lerks are an extremely nasty threat to jpers though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but in a public HA will be he chosen upgrade due to the fact that the average comm considers most or all of his team to be a n 0 0 b who NEEDS ha to survive, if ppl would trust jps it would be great, and at the end of the day most clan players consider publics a chance to try new rambo tactics, or using new combos, so it doesnt matter if you win or lose. As long as you learn <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pub is kinda boring tho, cous theres always some idiot that doesn't care and say "its just a game", and, well, it is, but its no fun not winning cous he acts like an idiot.