Aliens Need An Endgame...
Flak50C
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7247Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Onos don't cut it anymore...</div> In 1.0 Onos were the alien end game. Granted, they were still underpowered, but there was a definate end all in sight.
Then 2.0 comes around making all forms always available. So Onos can no longer become uber end game because the obvious problem is that aliens would always win.
So where is the alien end game? Flayra stated his vision for 2.0 was 30 minute games with a decisive end game strategy. For marines, thats level 3 upgrades HA/HMG.
The problem is since aliens really don't HAVE an end game unit, marines who aren't inept and are nomadic with their primary base can ALWAYS survive until they get to that point. Then its over for the aliens.
I've witnessed this so many times. All it takes is a defensible position for the marines to hang on for that next 10 minutes and bam, the aliens lose. The massive flood of onos to end the game gets cut off by map limitations, their size and the firing positions of the marines.
There are essentially two basic solutions to this. Force marines to defend the floor (some odd ways could do this i guess) which is basically sorta bizarre OR give the aliens the ability to get that last upgrade, that last big spend that ends the game if they are ahead of the marines.
My thought was to have hive upgrades that would give you a special 4th level upgrade. The key is you can not build the advanced upgrade for the hive the chamber is associated with.
Thus, you can not just upgrade the hive from hive 1 and have super defense. It would require two hives to do this. Having this upgraded hive does nothing without the chambers to level 3 before hand, so if you have D/M and make a sensory hive upgrade, you gain nothing from it.
The cost would be something like 40 res and take 6 minutes for this organ or what not to grow on a hive. This would place it about the same timeframe as marines getting heavy weapons/level 3 if they controlled the most res.
Upgrades would be like:
Regen: heals armor simultaneously at 1/3 the rate of health
Redempt: lowers the threshold, increases chance and allows marine to transport with onos if devoured
Carapace: Armor negates 1/4 hits in addition to increased armor capacity.
Cloak: Allows single attack while cloaked
Pheremones: ? lol
Scent of fear: Lights marines up in basic sight so you can always pick them out in dark corners etc.
Celerity: allows you to also jump higher and farther
Adren: reduces your base attack costs by 1/3
Silence: immune to motion tracking also.
Then 2.0 comes around making all forms always available. So Onos can no longer become uber end game because the obvious problem is that aliens would always win.
So where is the alien end game? Flayra stated his vision for 2.0 was 30 minute games with a decisive end game strategy. For marines, thats level 3 upgrades HA/HMG.
The problem is since aliens really don't HAVE an end game unit, marines who aren't inept and are nomadic with their primary base can ALWAYS survive until they get to that point. Then its over for the aliens.
I've witnessed this so many times. All it takes is a defensible position for the marines to hang on for that next 10 minutes and bam, the aliens lose. The massive flood of onos to end the game gets cut off by map limitations, their size and the firing positions of the marines.
There are essentially two basic solutions to this. Force marines to defend the floor (some odd ways could do this i guess) which is basically sorta bizarre OR give the aliens the ability to get that last upgrade, that last big spend that ends the game if they are ahead of the marines.
My thought was to have hive upgrades that would give you a special 4th level upgrade. The key is you can not build the advanced upgrade for the hive the chamber is associated with.
Thus, you can not just upgrade the hive from hive 1 and have super defense. It would require two hives to do this. Having this upgraded hive does nothing without the chambers to level 3 before hand, so if you have D/M and make a sensory hive upgrade, you gain nothing from it.
The cost would be something like 40 res and take 6 minutes for this organ or what not to grow on a hive. This would place it about the same timeframe as marines getting heavy weapons/level 3 if they controlled the most res.
Upgrades would be like:
Regen: heals armor simultaneously at 1/3 the rate of health
Redempt: lowers the threshold, increases chance and allows marine to transport with onos if devoured
Carapace: Armor negates 1/4 hits in addition to increased armor capacity.
Cloak: Allows single attack while cloaked
Pheremones: ? lol
Scent of fear: Lights marines up in basic sight so you can always pick them out in dark corners etc.
Celerity: allows you to also jump higher and farther
Adren: reduces your base attack costs by 1/3
Silence: immune to motion tracking also.
Comments
When most of your onoses have redemption they are definitely no game enders for sure.
If the aliens have 3 hives up, they can build this addon to any one of their hives. Aliens can now choose 2 upgrades from the chamber supported by that hive.
So if you look at your screen and see that currently (just for example) Waste Hive is supporting Defense, Fusion is supporting movement, and Sat Com is supporting sensory, then you go to Waste and build the addon to allow you to get both Carapace AND Regeneration. Then you could also put the addon in Fusion to allow both Adrenaline AND Celerity.
Destroying the hive would eliminate the addon as well, and you are back to 1 upgrade of that type (assuming you still have chambers lying around).
This would allow a 3-Hive alien team with lots of extra res and time to further upgrade to become more capable of handling marine turtles.
Thats the issue.
A 3-Hive alien team can blow the marines out of anywhere with mass Xenocide rushes, if anyone would bother to try. It's when the Marines relocate to a Hive site and turtle there that we have a problem.
2-Hive aliens have an awfully hard time beating a marine turtle even on 1 res node, as the marines can reach top tech pretty quickly, and then just keep on passing the same HMGs and GLs around from person to person as they die.
And no, I don't have a solution to this that wouldn't also unbalance games where the Marines are on even footing with the aliens, controlling 1 Hive and half the map while the Aliens control the other 2 and half the map.
The problem arises when you have only 2 hive and the rines have camped the last hive. thats where you get the problem.
after 30 minutes it cuts off play and gives the win to whoever has more res intake, from controlling more rt's or killing thousands of enemies, they are the deserving winner.
Yes you can siege 1-2 resnodes from marine spawn or from the hive relocation but there are still 6 left.
-Cpl. Hicks
Onos is nice, yes, but imho its the lerk and skulk who really thin the numbers.
Now, if the rines have 3rd hive, then you cut out on the most effective endgame "tech"..... but the problem is that virtually every hive on every map is susceptible to assault. Its hard/impossible to defend a hive adequately. Something inevitably WILL get through.
For endgame with 2 hives, i tend to see the marines jammed in base, having their res bled dry while aliens hoard up to onos, rush, and knock down the tech structures/ips. Marines cant afford to replace those. Once they're down, the base goes shortly after.
Its all possible through teamwork, and in the final analysis teamwork is THE endgame strat.
Am I completely insane to think pub play could use more of a Middle Game?
On pubs I observed that the end game last as long as the level of teamplay being employed. A team with good teamwork ends games very quickly and decisively. A team with poor teamwork ends up in those utterly boring 50+ minute epic stalemates.
Things I think are neglected by teams unable to end the game:
- Game-ending assaults requires a large group of Advanced Evos as well as a good mix of lower evos too. All too often important 3rd hive lower evo abilities are neglected.
- Use <b>Primal Scream</b> to assist game-ending assault
- Use <b>UMBRA</b> to assist game-ending assault
- Use <b>Offensive Webbing</b> to assist game-ending assault, <i>very, very</i> effective.
- Use <b>Bile Bomb</b> to target MS turrets or Tfacs.
- Use waves of <b>Xenocide</b> to soften up/kill HAs.
- Do not let them keep/rebuild the MS Res node, deprive them of resources
I think end game in v2.01 is fine.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use Primal Scream to assist game-ending assault
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use UMBRA to assist game-ending assault
Umbra has been nerfed repeatedly and is no longer anywhere near as effective as before
- Use Offensive Webbing to assist game-ending assault, very, very effective.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use Bile Bomb to target MS turrets or Tfacs.
bile bomb has incredibly short range and is often countered easily by GLs due to map design.
- Use waves of Xenocide to soften up/kill HAs.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Do not let them keep/rebuild the MS Res node, deprive them of resources
Due to map design, the res node is often far easier to defend/weld then it is to attack.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use Primal Scream to assist game-ending assault
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use UMBRA to assist game-ending assault
Umbra has been nerfed repeatedly and is no longer anywhere near as effective as before
- Use Offensive Webbing to assist game-ending assault, very, very effective.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Use Bile Bomb to target MS turrets or Tfacs.
bile bomb has incredibly short range and is often countered easily by GLs due to map design.
- Use waves of Xenocide to soften up/kill HAs.
<b>Requires 3rd hive</b>
- Do not let them keep/rebuild the MS Res node, deprive them of resources
Due to map design, the res node is often far easier to defend/weld then it is to attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking about the <b>END GAME</b> right?
Not some late round alien doo-hicky that you could just rampage around in, solo, killing everything in your path.
Give the marines a hmg or 2, and nothing can touch you.
Yes. We are talking about the endgame, more specifically, the one where the marines hole up in a hive and slowly trickle res until they get enough to get a HA train and own the aliens. Without those 3rd hive abilities, the alien endgame is totally nerfed.
I got into two of these incredibly stupid situations. in those places i just mentioned. The first one was bad cause we didn't have teamwork, so we lost it. BUt in tanith! we HAD teamwork, we had 5 onos charge the hive, with 2 lerks umbra/sporing, and a gorg for backup. We tried this REPEATEDLY, but we still got nowhere.
The onos is pretty much an end-game unit.
The problem is that 8-10 HA can easily be brought to bear on a single map location. Even if a hive is cramped and well-defended, the HA train only needs to get within siege range.
Conversely, 8-10 oni can't really be employed against a single map location. Once you have more than two or three attacking, they start blocking each other and getting stuck on other aliens.
1. No 1.0x maps are Onos friendly. None. In almost every one of them, outside the hive you have narrow hallways, where can only fit 1 Onos at best. Take a pick, bast, caged, eclipse, hera, tanith, nothing... but you can fit 8+ HAs with HMGs in there. What make marines good is not balance, but bad map design. Most MS are easy for the marines to defend, and most Hives are hard for the aliens to defend.
2. No limit for turrets. This IMO is a big problem. Marines make 2 bases, one at MS and another one in the double res node, and turret spam a lot. Like 30 turrets each room. Then they just wait for the money of either the RTs or the failed alien rush attempts, drop HA+HMGs and its good game.
Put it in the marine start or something. Obviously aliens would only be able to build 3 hives, but having a fourth option would prevent 'rines from camping a hive to delay the end game.
Though you'd need a mechanism to keep it from becoming a fourth hive location during other moments in gameplay... like if 'rines relocate to a double res or something.
Hmm... some way of proving to the game that aliens control the majority of the map, less their one last hive. Say... res nodes? If Aliens control 75% res or something, then they can build a 4th hive? Might be too messy though.
Oh well. I'll think about this more a little later. I don't have the time ATM, but I DO think a fourth hive location would be the <i>perfect</i> solution to this problem, as long as its properly regulated within the game (and therin lies the rub...)
Anyone else have a brilliant idea?
Thats the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With two hives you have umbra and bilebombs as said...try killing an 1000 hp onos with 100 hp regen per tick, while your turrets get biled by 3 adren gorges in umbra...
Example:
Aliens have 3 hives, and have most nodes. They are very strong, full upgrades, lots of res, any combination of lifeforms they want. Marines somehow manage to seige a hive and knock down a few nodes. Aliens are weaker now. They lost most of their higher lifeforms in the fight to save the hive, and with the slower res they cant get them back quickly. They only have 2 of 3 upgrades. They only have 3 of 4 abilities. The second hive is now *easier* to take down than the third. Second hive goes down just by walking into the hive and gunning it down, more nodes down. Aliens now have probably lost all their higher forms, and have no res to morph into anything (having done that already in trying to save the second hive). They only have 2 attacks each, and 1 upgrade. Killing the third hive is pitifully easy, as it degrades into vanilla skulks vs HA train.
Once *some* progress towards a win is made, the progress becomes faster and easier. Endgame functions as intended, once one side gains dominance, the game quickly proceeds to their victory except for the unlikely occurance of a amazing comeback by the losing team.
Now the other way around:
Marines control 1 hive and a couple of res nodes. Aliens get several Onos, go around smashing all undefended nodes. Marines try a last ditch run on a hive, fail, and realize the end is near. The team switches into 'alamo mode'. The comm will save all res, only spending on guns, welders, and maybe some turrets. Marines for the most part stay in base/hive. Because the hive is connected by phase gate to the spawn, it soon falls as it has a single point of failure: the aliens can muster one single charge and smash the phase gate (because marines must have their forces split between base and hive). Now Aliens have all 3 hives, and all nodes except for 1. Marines have only a few marines in spawn with big guns, and some turrets. Aliens begin to attack MS. Note: marines still have full upgrades, and all technology. The only thing that they *dont* have is lots of res. Because the comm is smart and only drops reusable equipment (IE no HA, no JP, no medpacks, no ammo), the rate at which marines LOSE res is by Onos successfully devouring someone with equipment and escaping to a safe location, or by newbs ramboing out of spawn with big guns. If marines can make more res/min through R4K and their 1 node than they lose from weapons leaving spawn, then they actually get *HARDER* to kill as time goes on. THAT is the problem.
Giving aliens a super weapon would NOT solve this, IMO. If you give them that weapon at hive 3, then if marines hold a hive as their base then the problem isn't solved, and it would also prevent marines from EVER winning if aliens got 3 hives.
The solution lies in changing how marines are dependant upon res in the endgame. Because res is the 1 thing that marines DO lose as they get pushed back further into their base (because it is location dependant), then there must be something implemented that will cause marines to lose strength as they lose res income. IMO, this means removing the dropping of weapons when the player dies. If you look at the 'effective price' of weapons during the course of a game you will notice that weapons become essentially free when marines are holed up in their base in the endgame because there is an almost 100% chance of recovering the weapon. Change that and marines will die as easily as aliens in the endgame.
But do you notice one thing all those attacks are at the <b>3rd hive</b>, ergo if marines are holed up in one of the aliens' hives then you don't have those base busting abilities. I have found that some hives esp sewer on mineshaft, that its almost impossible for aliens to take that back, using 2hive aliens.
Gorges BB won't reach the target before they are gunned down, the amount of ordinance normally built at a alamo type base will negate umbra (if it blocks 2/3 bullets lets just build 3 times as many). Oni gets stuck esp when assaulting many hives of even new maps.
A 3-Hive alien team can blow the marines out of anywhere with mass Xenocide rushes, if anyone would bother to try. It's when the Marines relocate to a Hive site and turtle there that we have a problem.
2-Hive aliens have an awfully hard time beating a marine turtle even on 1 res node, as the marines can reach top tech pretty quickly, and then just keep on passing the same HMGs and GLs around from person to person as they die.
And no, I don't have a solution to this that wouldn't also unbalance games where the Marines are on even footing with the aliens, controlling 1 Hive and half the map while the Aliens control the other 2 and half the map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines relocating to a hive and camping there.
Then they have abandoned the original marine hive, right.
Just let the aliens build their third hive at marine start if abandoned.
problemo solved