Ns & Ati?
Skullhair
Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13957Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13957Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">FPS?</div> I just upgraded to an ATI A-I-W 9800 Pro from an Nvidia Ti4600Ultra. I formatted my comp so I would have a fresh install of the ATI drivers. The problem is I get around 75FPS in game (with v-sync on) until i get attacked then they drop to 15-20FPS and it's like i'm attacking or getting attacked in slow motion. I've tried all the FPS tips on the tech support thread but it still happens. I've tried turning AA, AF, v-synce, trueform, and everything else in the settings off. Nothing seems to fix it. I have the latest cat drivers, 3.7. Anything I'm missing? With my TI I got a solid 75FPS and it never dropped below 55FPS. Bah, I dunno what else I can do but stop playing NS and wait for HL2.
System Specs:
Windows XP Pro
2.0A GHZ P4
512MB RDRAM
9800Pro
Soundblaster Audigy
IBM HDD
System Specs:
Windows XP Pro
2.0A GHZ P4
512MB RDRAM
9800Pro
Soundblaster Audigy
IBM HDD
Comments
help is appreciated.
Suggestions.
1) Check your mainboard's web site for updated chipset and agp port drivers.
2) If your mainboard can take it, upgrade your processor to (at the least) the 2.4ghz 533mhz fsb (P4 - 2.4b)
3) Go back the older Ti4600ultra for now. It's still a very impressive vcard and better suited to your current hardware.
Well, I guess I'm updating to a 9700 insted of a 9800. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because.. you know.. 9500s and 9700s are exactly the same.. 9800s aren't. So in theory, unless I want bugs like you kiddies get, 9700 sounds just so much better right now
Well, I guess I'm updating to a 9700 insted of a 9800. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because.. you know.. 9500s and 9700s are exactly the same.. 9800s aren't. So in theory, unless I want bugs like you kiddies get, 9700 sounds just so much better right now <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My friend also has a 9500 Software OC'd to a 9700 and also has the same problem. I guess I'll have to cope with it til HL2 comes out in which my FPS will kickass <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I only have FPS problems with NS too. All other games work top notch.
<a href='http://download.guru3d.com/dna/' target='_blank'>The GURU of 3D</a>
<a href='http://www.driverheaven.net/downloads/index4.htm' target='_blank'>DriverHeaven</a>
here are some things i noticed:
-setting the card to optimal performance makes no difference than setting it to maximum quality. the graphics render better with quality but the fps is still whacked.
-cpu speed matters a lot. people with faster cpus than mine sees smaller drops in fps than me. i notice people that claim they dont' have this problem have >2ghz cpus.
-some forums suggests that mobos have something to do with this too, but i'm not certain. i've got a pretty crappy mobo with onboard soundcard
-ati has known about this bug since catalyst 3.2. some claim cat 3.1 doesn't have this fps problem.
-expect cat 3.8 to come out around end of first week of oct. maybe that will fix it
Trust me when I say, I have tested just about every ATI video card from the radeon 7200 to the radeon 9600 pro in both systems so yeah, your processor speed makes a world of difference to your vcard. So don't cheat yourself. If your going for a kick @$$ video card, make sure you get a kick @$$ processor to.
As for the processor thing: that's actually a flaw in the graphics engine design (including the dx/opengl contributions). Most games don't make very good use of the v-card, heaping loads on the CPU instead. When the v-card can run that fast, heaping much of its max workload onto the CPU will bog it down, because the v-card is keeping it busy by asking it for info all the time rather than doing calculations itself.
Suggestions.
1) Check your mainboard's web site for updated chipset and agp port drivers.
2) If your mainboard can take it, upgrade your processor to (at the least) the 2.4ghz 533mhz fsb (P4 - 2.4b)
3) Go back the older Ti4600ultra for now. It's still a very impressive vcard and better suited to your current hardware. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
come on just use basic logic
even if the 2.0 ghz was acting as a bottleneck on the AiW, it wouldent cause the slow down, your logic is completely off
the reality of the problem is somthing to do with steam, <a href='http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12147' target='_blank'>http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthr...&threadid=12147</a>
check out that thread, and others on that board, there are sooo many people in the <b>exact</b> same situation as you, 9800 getting 30-20 fps in the midst of battle...
its a serious problem with steam, and we're all awaiting valve's word on the situation
Well, I guess I'm updating to a 9700 insted of a 9800. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because.. you know.. 9500s and 9700s are exactly the same.. 9800s aren't. So in theory, unless I want bugs like you kiddies get, 9700 sounds just so much better right now <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
why would you waste the money? you said yourself they're the same.. just overclock it...
and the chips in the 95-97 arent going to be sufficent for HL2... see hl2 is going to be using DX9, not opengl like the HL you're running now...
and the chips in the 95-97 arent going to be sufficent for HL2... see hl2 is going to be using DX9, not opengl like the HL you're running now... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming 95-97 is Radeon 9500-9700? In which case I assure you they are all DirectX 9 parts...
Trust me when I say, I have tested just about every ATI video card from the radeon 7200 to the radeon 9600 pro in both systems so yeah, your processor speed makes a world of difference to your vcard. So don't cheat yourself. If your going for a kick @$$ video card, make sure you get a kick @$$ processor to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can't afford to make full system upgrades at a time. i've had this setup for 3 years now and i'm starting to up it now because its starting to be inadequate. i thought that the vidcard would be the most cost effective up in performance, and it would have been if it weren't for this bug. now i gotta shell out more cash for a new mobo, soundcard (cause mine is built into the mobo) and another processor? i shouldn't have to just because ati don't know how to write ogl drivers. i'm gonna wait for the fix before i decide to buy any more hardware
i'm using the 9800 pro too and haven't got a prob with it.
For certain games like Battlefield it works fine or better then what my old card did (Geforce 2 mx) but for anything HL related it sucks. Basically except for smoke the geforce 2mx does better on a 1.4 ghz AMD then a shinny new ATI 9600 pro. On a 32 player server the Geforce 2 still holds at around 70 fps but the 9600 pro drops to 45-50 fps. This is not during a firefight mind you, its just sitting as a spectator in spawn when 15 players pop in front of you. I have tried both the Gigabyte and Saphire cards and they both have problems when it comes to serious fights. I mean even 45-50 frames isnt a super problem but when the shinny new card chugs down to 20fps it time to say "what tha". Putting the cards into systems with different motherboards did not help, but upgrading the CPU did. Upgrading the CPU is really poor fix to the problem as the card should work better then the geforce 2 mx I bought 2 1/2 years ago.
If anyone has a system <2ghz speed and they dont have a problem with either the 9600 or the 9800 series card I would love to hear from them. Otherwise i would say ATI have done a poor job on backwards compatibility and should give any of the poor saps (like me) a refund on the cards purchased to help boost old systems. I have now tried 7 different computers with varied specs and OS's. The card worked best on a 2.4ghz system, but in HL it still dropped frames on a 32 player server.
For certain games like Battlefield it works fine or better then what my old card did (Geforce 2 mx) but for anything HL related it sucks. Basically except for smoke the geforce 2mx does better on a 1.4 ghz AMD then a shinny new ATI 9600 pro. On a 32 player server the Geforce 2 still holds at around 70 fps but the 9600 pro drops to 45-50 fps. This is not during a firefight mind you, its just sitting as a spectator in spawn when 15 players pop in front of you. I have tried both the Gigabyte and Saphire cards and they both have problems when it comes to serious fights. I mean even 45-50 frames isnt a super problem but when the shinny new card chugs down to 20fps it time to say "what tha". Putting the cards into systems with different motherboards did not help, but upgrading the CPU did. Upgrading the CPU is really poor fix to the problem as the card should work better then the geforce 2 mx I bought 2 1/2 years ago.
If anyone has a system <2ghz speed and they dont have a problem with either the 9600 or the 9800 series card I would love to hear from them. Otherwise i would say ATI have done a poor job on backwards compatibility and should give any of the poor saps (like me) a refund on the cards purchased to help boost old systems. I have now tried 7 different computers with varied specs and OS's. The card worked best on a 2.4ghz system, but in HL it still dropped frames on a 32 player server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep yep 2.4 ghz seems to be the magic number for ati 9x00 compatibility
One thing I have found helps is enabling triple buffering (available in menu with cat 3.7). It seems to make the fps cuts less drastic.
Im on 1.4 amd, but what guts me is my olf gf4mx ran NS at 100fps steady.
Im sincerely hoping a fix comes out for this.
JAK.
even if the 2.0 ghz was acting as a bottleneck on the AiW, it wouldn't cause the slow down, your logic is completely off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me try to make this simple for you. Contrary to popular belief, your processor still plays a very demainding role in graphics acceleration, even more so now then ever before. When your 2ghz cpu was designed, it had a set amount of graphic enhancment codes built into it. The best of the best available at that time as it maybe. Now if you were to run an older video card (say a radeon 8500) that had about the same amount of advancements as your processor does, your older video card would then tear through the HL engine like no one's buissness.
But now, you step up to a brand new, top of the line, $400+ video card that has way many more advancements then your older processor can possablely handle and your graphics are slowing down waiting for your slower, 2 year old processor to play catch-up. I'm sorry to have to tell you this but your once, all powerfull 2.0a ghz processor has now become the bottleneck because it's just not fast enough for a video card such as the radeon 9800 pro. The good news is, it's still just fast enough for a radeon 9200. Maybe even a radeon 9500 but you'll be pushing it beyond the envelope there.
There is nothing wrong with the ati radeon 9800 pro or it's drivers. It's the fact that the rest of your system has fallen to far behind and now needs a bit of a boost in the processor department to catch up.
Why would an older card like the gf4mx with the same processor run faster than the radeon 9800 pro with the same chip.
I think I understand the theory behind bottlenecking, but if one element is upgraded and the other remains constant (excluding driver or hardware issues with the card as you say) - why would performance degrade so much?
Thanks,
JAK.
Considering that this card runs every other game and opengl app I have tried at silky smooth framerates I am inclined to believe that Valve screwed something up along the way. The only way to get this problem noticed by the people at ATI and get them to collaborate with Valve for a fix is by filling out a problem report on the ATI driver feedback page, <a href='http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp' target='_blank'>here</a>. Right now the problems with half-life have simply not been reported enough for ATI to consider it to be a big problem. HL issues are not even in the top 20 reported problems when sorted by popularity, which means that ATI doesn't give these issues priority. I urge everyone like me who KNOWS that there is no problem with their hardware or configuration to fill out a report on the driver feedback page, get this issue some priority, and hopefully get us a fix before HL2 gets here.
even if the 2.0 ghz was acting as a bottleneck on the AiW, it wouldn't cause the slow down, your logic is completely off.
Let me try to make this simple for you. Contrary to popular belief, your processor still plays a very demainding role in graphics acceleration, even more so now then ever before. When your 2ghz cpu was designed, it had a set amount of graphic enhancment codes built into it. The best of the best available at that time as it maybe. Now if you were to run an older video card (say a radeon 8500) that had about the same amount of advancements as your processor does, your older video card would then tear through the HL engine like no one's buissness.
But now, you step up to a brand new, top of the line, $400+ video card that has way many more advancements then your older processor can possablely handle and your graphics are slowing down waiting for your slower, 2 year old processor to play catch-up. I'm sorry to have to tell you this but your once, all powerfull 2.0a ghz processor has now become the bottleneck because it's just not fast enough for a video card such as the radeon 9800 pro. The good news is, it's still just fast enough for a radeon 9200. Maybe even a radeon 9500 but you'll be pushing it beyond the envelope there.
There is nothing wrong with the ati radeon 9800 pro or it's drivers. It's the fact that the rest of your system has fallen to far behind and now needs a bit of a boost in the processor department to catch up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it hard to believe that it's my CPU when all my other games run great with all settings on high. Yet a five year old game like half-life needs a higher CPU then a 2gig. I think the problem is ATI and ATI's drivers. Thanks for the link Roscoe I'll be sure to check it out and also report the problem to ATI.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing I have found helps is enabling triple buffering (available in menu with cat 3.7). It seems to make the fps cuts less drastic.
Im on 1.4 amd, but what guts me is my olf gf4mx ran NS at 100fps steady.
Im sincerely hoping a fix comes out for this.
JAK. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
triple buffering only helps if vsync is on but most people dont' turn on vsync because it eats away at fps like no tommorow. <span style='color:orange'>the tentative release date for cats 3.8 is now oct 8</span>. i simply can't wait. meanwhile i'm going to try installing cats 3.1. i hear that's the last cat driver that doesn't have ogl problems. will report back later
Why would an older card like the gf4mx with the same processor run faster than the radeon 9800 pro with the same chip.
I think I understand the theory behind bottlenecking, but if one element is upgraded and the other remains constant (excluding driver or hardware issues with the card as you say) - why would performance degrade so much?
Thanks,
JAK. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, let me know if this makes any sence.
Say you have a intel P4 - 2.0a ghz 400mhz bus processor with a near equal level of graphics acceleration instructions as your video card, say a ati radeon 8500. This combination should run flawlessly because data is sent and recieved at the same speed on both cpu and gpu ends.
Now, take that same intel P4 - 2.0a ghz processor and pair it with an ati radeon 9800. Your new radeon 9800 video card can process the same data that your radeon 8500 video card can but at a much faster rate then your 2.0 ghz processor can deliver and there-for, creates a bottleneck.
Overclocking your cpu can and will deliver improved performance at a small degree but alas, your 2.0a ghz processor is still going to hold back the preformance of your far superior video card.
Those people having FPS problems in CS on the stickied ati and half-life reloaded thread on the rage3d forums seem to think they get FPS dips when there are lots of people on the screen and not when there are lots of heavy graphical effects like smoke and sprite effects as well as stuff rendered as 'solid', also turning on AF and AA seemed to make no difference. So it is definetly not an issue of the card being underpowered by a long shot. Turning of ati's polygon subdivide thing(truform?) also seems to help little.
Well, I guess I'm updating to a 9700 insted of a 9800.
Because.. you know.. 9500s and 9700s are exactly the same.. 9800s aren't. So in theory, unless I want bugs like you kiddies get, 9700 sounds just so much better right now <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, unfortunetly some people have had the same problems with 9500/9500pro's, 9700/9700pro's, 9800/9800pro's and so on. While others have no problems whatsoever.
IMHO the 9800/9800pros are more similar to 9700 pros than 9700/9700pros. The 9500 series is consists of cut down 9700's where 4 pixel pipelines have been disabled for the 9500 and both cards use a 128-bit memory interface(half that of a 9700/9700pro).
A 9800 on the other hand is a 9700 with the abillity to do more shader instructions and slightly better compression algorithms to get a little more bandwidth and the clock speeds jacked up a bit. The 9800 is more or less just a speed bump to the 9700.