My Mid Game Sucks
stilton
Join Date: 2003-09-07 Member: 20646Members
Join Date: 2003-09-07 Member: 20646Members
<div class="IPBDescription">a little help?</div> As a commander i definately have noticed that my middle game sucks and is where i usually lose games (i've notived this for other comms too). I have no trouble getting those 4/5 rez and maybe a few turrets in abse and at a hive, starting upgrades, getting pgs and holding aliens to only 4/5 rez too. It seems that right around this time is when aliens start onosing (if not sooner) and my team and its organization go to hell. i can have my guys defend hive and base, but then my other rez get taken out. i can have them go on an offensive, but then 1 smart alien can take down all kinds of stuff. i try send everyone out except for 2 guys to patrol pgs, but again organization is out the window. hmmm -- not a specific question question so much as some pointers to help my mid-game stop sucking.
thanks guys
thanks guys
Comments
Also, on defense, I noticed that they don't care about defending rts as much as defending the phase. which makes sense to me now. It's easier to defend cause you can drop it anywhere. and the rt can be protected by marines phasing through to get somewhere.
I dunno, seems that giving out shotties at teh beggining of the mid-game makes for easier wins.
for those of who who disagree, this is not THE definitive guide, just some things that helped me.
Thusly at midgame you need to be aggressive and effective. Once you've nailed first hive you want to seriously start charging into two, and from there straight to three.
Otherwise you find yourself on the receiving end of an Onos rush, or a massive chamber wall, etc.
You just got to also make sure you dont have a very good skulk killin all of ure rines wich he gets the res for. Thats what you have to watch out for when you have rambos.
Thusly at midgame you need to be aggressive and effective. Once you've nailed first hive you want to seriously start charging into two, and from there straight to three.
Otherwise you find yourself on the receiving end of an Onos rush, or a massive chamber wall, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen. A lot of commanders think it's a good idea to just sit back and relax during mid game, waiting to tech to HA. This simply doesn't work -- by the time you get that HA squad, your men will be facing several onos, making a ha train impossible.
Mid game is especially stressful, and people often just breakdown during such periods. I often find my heart beating faster and unable to make proper decisions in the middle of a particularly intense game. Try taking a few deep breaths to get your mind back on track -- it helps a lot. Also, midgame decisions can be made a lot easier if you have a goal or plan to stick with in the first place. Remember: Think ahead.
I would recommed a mid-game shotgun rush (cost ~ 40 res) while capping any res along the way (not electrifying at this point, usually. bilebombs and onos), and spending any extra res you have on upgrading. If you're lucky, even a failed shotty rush will result in a few dead gorges/lerks/fades/hopefully onos and you having enough res to send out a better equipped force next time they spawn. RfK really rewards aggressive play.
As for how this actually pans out in game, I couldn't tell you. As a comm, I usually get distracted at this part of the game, and have only actually remembered to drop shotguns and try this once. It at least seemed better than not dropping shotties for a midgame rush, but I'll leave it up to you guys to test it more thoroughly for me.
here's another one for you guys:
i usually comm on smaller size servers (having 10-14 peeps playing), but i usually find larger servers easier to comm -- just me or is that same for u? it just seems onos are able to own more on smaller servers and outposts are harder to defend .....
neways, thnaks ya'l
Oh, and as I have said before, it is imperative that your armory is upgraded when the 2:nd hive comes online. Also, don't be afraid to hand out a GL/HMG or two, they are extremely effective and as long as you keep them in a squad someone will be able to retrieve them most of the time.
Look for an opening to take down one of the hives before the 2:nd one comes online. The time from when they start hive #2 to when it is up (3 minutes) is when they are most vulnerable. 2 hives to defend, and no umbra. If/when the second hive comes online, I tend to shy away from rushing it. It's too easy to defend with umbra so you need either a HA squad with GL's or a siege outpost to take it down (or both) which is a big investment and usually not affordable right now since you are spending your res on tech. Just make sure you keep on the offensive so the bugs don't get a chance to bile your bases.
The reason Marines often lose the mid-game is because they are in a good position (aliens advance rather "choppily", the step from 1 hive to 2 is rather big) and become desperate to preserve their good position, this leads to a defensive position that leaves the (unharassed) aliens time to organise and take down the Marine structures. The big boost of the 2:nd hives is really in hive defense (umbra) and base destroying (umbra and bilebomb), so keep them away from your stuff by attacking, but don't attack their hives unless you can afford to do it for real. Skulks don't benefit much from a second hive and if you keep them low on res it should still be some time for the onos.
If they get, say, 15 res from panting your squad (we'll assume LMG basic) you'll have capped 2 res, or built another base. Which longterm will make a lot of profit.
I think the comms sometimes fall into the trap of med and ammo spam for very little res gain.
Anyone who doubts the wisdom of constant aggressive behaviour despite the rfk should play aliens for a while. When the marines are down on RTs, you rush them back to their spawn, wall them in, then cap the rest of the map while teching up to Onos. Marines cannot counter, other than futile breakouts. Keeping the pressure on aliens allows you to do the same to them (although you need a bit more skill since you're walling up several "bases" at once).
Most of the time, you're stuck fairly even with aliens as far as res nodes. This means that, in all theory, you should be fairly even in terms of tech/power. And, in fact, you are... However, aliens have a far easier time at this point of launching attacks, defending, and so forth, because their command structure is a distributed system. They still have certain weaknesses that can stop attacks, though... One is the hive. Nothing will make oni turn around faster than "Your hive is under attack!"
Thus, smoke and mirrors will work wonders... Hitting Biodome with two lights while you get a heavy weapon (or maybe heavy armor!) squad to march on Fusion will likely knock down a hive in the midgame (oni will be running towards Bio, and if you take the hive out fast, won't mc over in time)... Maybe hit three res nodes at once?
In the end, it's going to be a lot easier to organize an offensive at this point than a preclusive defensive strategy. Most of the time.
Of course this tactic will also cause mass confusion on the alien team playing on ns_tanith, when the marines from ns_origin show up in their hive <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now nowhere have I found a way to counter this, other than taking the initiative and attacking, which i kinda see as unfair, because teh aliens have an obvious advantage.
If marines defend and aliens defend aliens win
If marines defend and aliens attack, aliens win
If marines attack and aliens defend, marines win
If marines attack and aliens attack, it goes 50/50 depending on the skill of the players.
If there's anything wrong, correct me, I wish to learn.
edit:: just to add, the only reason aliens would defend is if they were pressured by marines into defending. Meanwhile, It's kinda natural for marines to sit back and defend while they tech, which is why marines fall into the trap of only defending... The teching is quite a disadvantage.
You've to take into account that lategame marines are very powerful, consistently so, whereas (barring redemption) aliens keep spawning in as the common skulk. Secondly, this distinction between the teams keeps the game fresh. Otherwise you end up with chess, having set moves and gambits.
Marines lose if they don't play to their strengths. For that matter, so do aliens. And thats all the worthwhile extrapolation you can make.
If you want a game where everything is "balanced", set up a program where two computer players randomly generate a 0 or 1, and in a draw will re-generate the numbers.
It'll be fair, and balanced, but it'll be the most boring thing ever.
and When I say attacking and defending, I mean there IS a distinction between Marines actively trying to take something, and rambos all around getting slaughtered (or marines sitting in base). Unfortunately, Alien Ramboing is powerful enough to be considered attacking.
I do agree that Aliens and Marines have to play thier strengths, but due to the nature on the game, the marine's biggest strength is close teamwork, and that is something that is hard to find, leading to marines losing most of the time.
The main point of my previous post was to find a way to actually defend multiple locations at once as a marine. Alot of marine strategies and coms seem to put an emphasis on Tfarming up certain locations. I'm wondering if there actually is a way to do it right so you don't lose bases one at a time to a single onos.
Edit:: I have to point out that in a battle between lategame marines and lategame aliens, the aliens usually win... Onos and lerks vs. HA hmg/gl... umbra, stomp, devour half and gore the rest...
<b>1. Captrue RTs
2. Upgrade stuff</b>
Its really that simple
I have this habit... Of calling Furnace Fusion. And Central Reactor... I guess it's cuz I adore the style and textures of Tanith that I have to slap its names onto everything else. I probably need some sort of ns_tanith support group.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The main point of my previous post was to find a way to actually defend multiple locations at once as a marine. Alot of marine strategies and coms seem to put an emphasis on Tfarming up certain locations. I'm wondering if there actually is a way to do it right so you don't lose bases one at a time to a single onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 2.01d... Nope. Not even 50 gazillion turrets will stop onos, not even double tfacs, or triple tfacs... Only thing is a mine stack, and that's risky at best. Or marines, but, basically, that's the problem... Hard to get 'rines to patrol.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit:: I have to point out that in a battle between lategame marines and lategame aliens, the aliens usually win... Onos and lerks vs. HA hmg/gl... umbra, stomp, devour half and gore the rest... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5-6 heavy L3/L3 marines should be able to roll over most things if you get them fast enough, assuming combined arms (shotguns too!) and that you move them out early enough. If they have three onos and a lerk umbraing, that could be a problem, but otherwise, the combination of 8 grenades, 2 hmgs, and 2 shotguns can normally send up to 2 onos packing... With three, the problem arises where it's easy for two to stomp the entire force while the other kills (one often has a hard time getting all the marines with 1 stomp, meaning it requires multiple stomps and thus mad adrenal drain).
That said, yes, it's hard... On the one hand, I've seen 4 L3/L3's take down 2 onos and a lerk, and I've also seen 6 L3/L3's die to one onos... Best bet is to deny the aliens stomp (easier said than done, I know).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its really that simple <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, no it's not. That's far too defensive a ideology.
-If you're sitting having all your marines guard, electrify, turret, you're playing a defensive game. In 2.0 where jp/hmgs are gone, a defensive game will not win. Get out and kill some nodes.
-Get upgrades. Turrets are not more important then upgrades. Upgrades are essential to your team's survival.
People may say thats bs, but as a gorge its how I stop marines moving around the map. One big OC DC nest in one choke, same at another. Marines can't move, can't get to res, GG.
Do the same against them - expand, choke, and consolidate the rt behind you. That way you spend minimum res for maximum gain - and because the tfarms are so huge, you can afford to spend more time following and helping your men, rather than "GET TO THE x TFARM QUICK!!"
Rule of thumb: Whenever you kill a hive, the aliens will go for your base.