Mobility Vs Firepower.
Hunty
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19244Members
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19244Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Or,Cavalry vs Infantry.</div> Aliens rely on mobility.Marines rely on firepower.This would be like the old Cavalry vs Infantry argument.....the Cavalry wants the army to be highly mobile with sufficient firepower to make an impact,while the Infantry are willing to sacrfice mobility for armor and firepower.
The slight problem is,this is a game,and that mobility,coupled with teamwork,are far deadlier than fiirepower and teamwork together.
Firepower is useless if you cannot get there in time.Why do you think the army hasnt asked for tanks with dual 120mm canons and shitloads of armor?Because mobility is needed,all that firepower is useless if you arent there to plug the hole in your defence line.
Assuming that this is average scrim,aliens have the advantage,THERE,infront of them,as long as they can use teamwork.
They can take marine RTs down with ease.Marines do not have the mobility to counter this.You could say PG....unfornately the 2 marines phasing in before the PG is destroyed by several skulks biting it at the same time,wont help.Since marines have much more expensive items,this hurts them very badly.Skulk ambushes are far more effective than mariine ambushes.Flank,rear attacks,are nearly impossible for marines to pull off,not true to the aliens,who can exit the hive by a 2nd route and rush the marine from the rear or flank,while they are busy covering the main entrance.Aliens enjoy far more reign over the map,and have a far,at least 10x,chance of killing rts than marines,because of their mobility.They can be onto rts less than 5 seconds of the comm placing it,or the rt being finished.Leave a marine rt undefended,it goes down in seconds.Leave an alien rt undefended,it will survive long enough for the skulks(Again,MOBILITY,enables the aliens to defend rts,that would be impossible without MOBILITY) to defend it.
Ah but why do aliens not win all the time?
Because this is a game.Marines get extra bonuses from having skilled players with them then at aliens.
An uber player who can kill 4 skulks by himself,can counter the mobility of the aliens by forcing them to constantly respawn.With the uber marine,assaults are far more likely to suceed,marine RFK is generous,and teching up is so much faster,while aliens are usually stuck near their hive.
However an uber player,doesnt get much help as a skulk.Sure,he knows the best hiding spots,the best strafing tatics,etc,but they will not help him as much as if he was a marine.There is very little skill involved in biting.The avoiding bullet parts,the ambush parts,etc,yes,skill is needed,but in DIRECT COMBAT,hardly any skill is needed,and thus,you cannot benefit from being uber skilled.The game was just designed this way.
And THAT is the marine advantage.Of course,bad news,you have to FIND these rare,uber players on the marines team.Yes,they do actually play aliens sometimes,and there should be less than 40,maybe 30 players,of this quality in the NS world.
However alien mobility is always there.Always.And thus,why aliens have an advantage in pubs.Marines NEED to be more skilled than their alien counter parts to win,IN TERMS OF DIRECT COMBAT.And this is one of the ironies of the universe,newbies are encouraged to join marines,where they most likely,do not have the skill necessary.However on aliens,where very little skill is involved,they will make themselves far more useful,as the skill needed to kill a upgraded skulk in combat with the LMG,is far more than the skill needed to kill a marine by biting him a couple of times.Get a group of newbies to join marines,and a group of newbies to join aliens.Chances are,in combat,aliens will perform far better.
The slight problem is,this is a game,and that mobility,coupled with teamwork,are far deadlier than fiirepower and teamwork together.
Firepower is useless if you cannot get there in time.Why do you think the army hasnt asked for tanks with dual 120mm canons and shitloads of armor?Because mobility is needed,all that firepower is useless if you arent there to plug the hole in your defence line.
Assuming that this is average scrim,aliens have the advantage,THERE,infront of them,as long as they can use teamwork.
They can take marine RTs down with ease.Marines do not have the mobility to counter this.You could say PG....unfornately the 2 marines phasing in before the PG is destroyed by several skulks biting it at the same time,wont help.Since marines have much more expensive items,this hurts them very badly.Skulk ambushes are far more effective than mariine ambushes.Flank,rear attacks,are nearly impossible for marines to pull off,not true to the aliens,who can exit the hive by a 2nd route and rush the marine from the rear or flank,while they are busy covering the main entrance.Aliens enjoy far more reign over the map,and have a far,at least 10x,chance of killing rts than marines,because of their mobility.They can be onto rts less than 5 seconds of the comm placing it,or the rt being finished.Leave a marine rt undefended,it goes down in seconds.Leave an alien rt undefended,it will survive long enough for the skulks(Again,MOBILITY,enables the aliens to defend rts,that would be impossible without MOBILITY) to defend it.
Ah but why do aliens not win all the time?
Because this is a game.Marines get extra bonuses from having skilled players with them then at aliens.
An uber player who can kill 4 skulks by himself,can counter the mobility of the aliens by forcing them to constantly respawn.With the uber marine,assaults are far more likely to suceed,marine RFK is generous,and teching up is so much faster,while aliens are usually stuck near their hive.
However an uber player,doesnt get much help as a skulk.Sure,he knows the best hiding spots,the best strafing tatics,etc,but they will not help him as much as if he was a marine.There is very little skill involved in biting.The avoiding bullet parts,the ambush parts,etc,yes,skill is needed,but in DIRECT COMBAT,hardly any skill is needed,and thus,you cannot benefit from being uber skilled.The game was just designed this way.
And THAT is the marine advantage.Of course,bad news,you have to FIND these rare,uber players on the marines team.Yes,they do actually play aliens sometimes,and there should be less than 40,maybe 30 players,of this quality in the NS world.
However alien mobility is always there.Always.And thus,why aliens have an advantage in pubs.Marines NEED to be more skilled than their alien counter parts to win,IN TERMS OF DIRECT COMBAT.And this is one of the ironies of the universe,newbies are encouraged to join marines,where they most likely,do not have the skill necessary.However on aliens,where very little skill is involved,they will make themselves far more useful,as the skill needed to kill a upgraded skulk in combat with the LMG,is far more than the skill needed to kill a marine by biting him a couple of times.Get a group of newbies to join marines,and a group of newbies to join aliens.Chances are,in combat,aliens will perform far better.
Comments
Edit: Also I would like to point out that one can prove practically anything with a half argument, especially a holed half argument.
A well planned strategy (hive lockdown , choke point control , res monopolyzing) considerably reduces the use of alien mobility. Marines can manage to repell a fade , but not a determined onos.
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Easy to hit compared to what? A spec of dust? I guess so....
Onos are harder to hit than you think due their... "hollowness", as much of the time you can fire right threw them causing them no damage.
And absentic has a good point: Its really aggrivating to attempt to kill a Marine who immediately begins hopping around like he's on a damn pogo stick when he sees you.
I always, always, always die as an onos so I just dont bother! ;p
I always, always, always die as an onos so I just dont bother! ;p <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lerks all the way!
-JohnnySmash
1. Although most (even the onos w/celerity) of the alien are fast they do not have the phase gate which allows immediately reallocation of troops, thereby allowing 1 marine scout in an alien hive to bring all his buddies waiting in base over . Aliens have to run like the dickens the would be quickly out manoeuvred. Jump packs also allow a team of half skilled marines to evade most of the alien attacks.
The marine’s range also adds a degree to their mobility.
2. On firepower both teams are fairly equal; now do not confuse firepower with outright damage. Firepower is the most damage a unit can produce to an incoming foe, so range is part of the equation, and range is something, which marines have in spades. Unfortunately range is a bit of a double edge sword in the confines of most level, which does give aliens some advantage.
3. My final point brings me to one of the things that I like most about NS(next to the necessary teamwork) the toyz, like jps, silence, motion sensors, umbra, and several other devices that cause no damage by themselves, but in the right hands can reap massive damage on the opponent. All the toyz and an interest variable in NS which veterans swear by and newbies curse. The fact that humans are (as far as we know) the ultimate tool users gives the marines some cool toyz which need to be put to good use for marines to win and but they are not quite as important as teamwork.
Plz feel free to find error in my post so that in the end I can improve my game.
Oh and just for kick he is my version of the firepower formula (YEAAA NERDS!!)
Firepower= intelligence (damage + range + defence (armour and health) + reaction time + mobility + accuracy)
(Notice intelligence is the Most important factor not muscle)
Mechanized Infantry > Cavalry
And remember, mechanized infantry began when the spear was invented <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But seriously, let's look at the real examples. In the Medieval ages, Cavalry units ran over infantry units because they could fit a lot of armour onto a fast moving platform. When pikes were developed, infantry became the weapon of choice, since pikes nullified any advantages cavalry had because they just couldn't attack anyone witha pike, and the archers hid behind walls of pikemen.
When rifles were developed (and this was evident in the German strike on Belgium in WW1), Cavalry became a joke. You don't need mobility to win a battle if it's at long ranges. You pull out your gun and kill the attacker before he gets to you.
This is why marines win defensive battles more often than offensive ones. If a marine sits with a long hall in front of him, he can unload his clip into incoming aliens. A skulk has to wait for the marine to get to him. Skulks take the fight to marines, marines sit back and let them come. When these roles are reversed, things get sticky and skill is a major factor, but most non-retarded marines can beat skulks from across a huge room.
But moreso, the commander can choose which bases he can fortify. Skulks can whoop unguarded res nodes, but unupgraded skulks vs unupgragraded turrets + marines in a defensive battle will lose, if the marines have half a brain and stand behind the turrets.
Marine mobility comes from the phase gate because they have the extra power through range. Once the marines place suffieicent defenses in an area, they can hold it until a far more powerful alien force arrives, chiefly, the onos. This is why marines take a hive and lock it down early on, because usually the aliens can't retake it until the second hive is up. Yes marine structures are more expensive, because they have a single res pool, as opposed to splitting it among 6 aliens. 6 Aliens have a total of 150 res off the start, yet they can't put up a hive.
Skill is still a factor on both sides too. I've seen marines (myself included) do a friggin dance and whoop 4 skulks. I've seen aliens (myself included too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) whoop four marines alone. The marine gets more for his comms pool, but his structures are more expenive. Whooping 4 skulks, on average, will yield you less res than you need for a turret. A skulk does this and gets a good pile of res, and uses more than half of the gain to go gorge and drop something.
As for ambushing, remember that as soon as the marines see you, they can start harming you. Not true with skulks. They have to get next to you to harm you. So, marines don't need to ambush, though it can help (especially against lerks) because their firepower wouldn't gain much, all they need is distance and some time.
So, this guys argument has been proven wrong on every level (I think), and remember:
Marines don't need more skill, they just need a better comm. Aliens need better gorges.
My thoughts on real life go like this: You have a tank, at say 2.5 million dollars. Then you have the commander, the driver and the gunner, that's three men manning it. You'll have to train them in the operation of a tank and squad procedures, as well as lots of other stuff, and that's probably another two-point-five million. Along come two people with a one-shot-and-discard shoulder-firing antitank weapon (at about, say 50k dollars a pop?), hiding in a shrubbery. Those weapons are REALLY easy to operate, taking only a few days of training to learn. Add in a few attempts before success, and lets say that we're up to 200k dollars and ten lost soldiers before the tank goes down. One side loses ten men and 200k, the other side loses three men and five million (or much less if they can recover the wrekage, most parts of a destroyed main battle tank can actually be reused). Now add in the ruthless dictator who doesn't care much about his soldiers and has lots and lots of 'em, and the tank = owned.
Of course, I just made those figures up on the spot, so they are wildly inaccurate, but the main reasoning is that taking down a tank is too easy and cheap compared to how much a tank is worth. Imagine if the "elephant gun" I heard of in the S&I forum was implemented: A one-shot gun that kills the user, but does enough damage to kill an onos. You'd just hand one of these out, and you'd have an almost surefire way of eliminating the kharaa's 100-res investment with only low expenses on your own side. The way is see it, there is such an "uber-counter" to tanks. And then again, I might be completely wrong.
Still, a tank has much more maneuverability than infantry, and that's also worth a lot.
Cavelr onlyy became useless at the start of WW1 when machine guns became effective, they were a big factor in the last major war before WW1 in 1871 in Germany. Also that only applys if by cavelry you mean guys on hourses. Todays cavelry are lightly armoured but fast tanks and trucks. In the context of this discussion cavelry is only used to mean faster but less powerful
First there were tanks with hefty armour.
Then came the anti-tank weaps.
Then came 'reactive armour'; this essentially is packs of explosives with metal plates on them put over the armour, when the rocket hits them and detonates they explode too away from the tank hull. The explosion is usually power enough to cancel or overcome the incoming explosion meaning the tank takes little to no dmg.
Then came anti-reactive rockets... these have 2 charges, the initial charge and a delayed charge which goes off a very short time afterwards, the first one takes out the reactive armour while the 2nd boom does the dmg.
...You can kinda guess where this goes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
for every wall there will be a bigger ladder