New Layout In The Works

KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">ns_sepulcher</div> Well, I've taken some time off from NS mapping since 2.0 released, but I'm gearing back up for getting to work on part 2 of the original Eclipse trilogy as planned (ns_eclipse, ns_aelin, and ns_valhalla). What better way to get back into the swing of things with another in-between map? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> This one's currently under the working title of ns_sepulcher, and like Veil is intended to be a small and (unlike Veil) quickly produced map. Here's what I've got of the layout at the moment:

Red = Nozzle
Blue = CC
Green = Hive

<img src='http://www.planethalflife.com/awmaps/pics/ns_sepulcher.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

There's a couple obvious problems, first the lack of 'vents' (the reason that's in quotes will be more apparent later), and second and most notably the lack of any sort of nozzle close to the marine spawn (a problem similar to what I had in early versions of Veil, for those who recall).

The narrow bits are 128 units wide. Let me know what you think. It's really young and really horrible at this point, so don't be afraid to shred it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Comments

  • lyndaklyndak God Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8419Members, Constellation
    Nice, but it looks a little... symetrical.. if you know what I mean... the layout looks like it was copied and "Ctrl+M - X = 90"d <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Just my 2pence, but I think a sheetload of vents would counteract this potential problem <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    <supernorn2000^> it isnt using wall_lab is it?
    <KungFuSquirrel> I will destroy you.

    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    edit:

    almost forgot my thoughts...

    It looks pretty easy for aliens to be honest. All they have to do is follow the main route and they eventually meet up with all three hives. I suggest cutting them up abit, so aliens have to get closer to Marine Start rather than avoiding it totally.
  • lyndaklyndak God Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8419Members, Constellation
    That's what I tried to subtly imply, but, again, my lack of articulation exceeds my attentio....
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    A lot of corridors and not enough rooms, thats what I think. So many hallways.
  • lyndaklyndak God Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8419Members, Constellation
    I'm not too sure, there's alot of large-ish junctions which could be counted as _alot_ of small rooms..
  • KalopsiaKalopsia Join Date: 2003-05-15 Member: 16331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    where do you plan on putting any vents in to give us more of an idea ?. Also on the left and right hives i dont see any major areas that marines can setup and siege.
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited September 2003
    Yeah, too symetrical. The reason I like eclipse so much is 1. Its bright enough to see everything/easy on the eyes. 2. Its quick to get from hive to hive, but the Marine start is a longer walk

    Well, now thinking bout it, eclipse was kinda layed out that way. MS@12 Hive 1@3 2@6 3@9. Maybe some more intertwining halls inbetween.


    I doubt that helps much, Im not that good at explaining things. But the layout really doesn't appeal to me at all. How bout u taking one of your nightwatch maps, rearrange the layout a bit, and put it in ns. I love the quality of those maps you got over there. Got one question, how the hell do ya do that!
  • Some_tall_guy1Some_tall_guy1 Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16601Members
    Too symmetrical, im gonna get lost in there. Make things less sammy near the ms.
  • CampaignjunkieCampaignjunkie Join Date: 2002-06-10 Member: 746Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How bout u taking one of your nightwatch maps, rearrange the layout a bit, and put it in ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ehh, single-player is by definition much more detailed (1200 wpoly max, remember. That's way over the limit.) and layout-wise much more linear. I'd say it's impossible really. Anyway...

    Layout reminds me of Veil alot. MS doesn't look too defendable (3 separate routes going in?), and the middle hive looks a lot farther away from the MS than the other 2 hives.
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
    I didn't mean for him to do that seriously. Although I really wouldn't mind, hehe. Ive run maps well over 2000 w_poly, I think i can take 1200, heh.
  • MartMart Origin of SUYF Join Date: 2002-02-26 Member: 248Members
    Everyones comments valid, too symmetrical, lack of diversity in routes etc.

    Another thing is the layout looks liek the layout for a gameplay map, and not a ship/station. And yes this is another attempt by me to get map authors to make their levels logical and functional.

    Also it appears the marines lack any res-nodes that are orientated towards them capping them. E.G. Station Access Alpha on Eclipse, the weldable RT in Lost.
  • KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everyones comments valid, too symmetrical, lack of diversity in routes etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I really don't see it as being that symmetrical. :-\

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing is the layout looks liek the layout for a gameplay map, and not a ship/station.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Who said it was a ship/station?

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also it appears the marines lack any res-nodes that are orientated towards them capping them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> second and most notably the lack of any sort of nozzle close to the marine spawn<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes, I know... The idea is that you help me figure out how to fix this, not just tell me that it's a problem. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How bout u taking one of your nightwatch maps, rearrange the layout a bit, and put it in ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you want to play a mostly linear, non-MP designed map in a completely non-NS type setting... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    edited September 2003
    No vents?

    Added vents, the crossing ones do not intersect. Not meant to be that straight.
    Becausyed its a small map most vents should be acessable by marines, not sure wich ones.
    Added 2 OR-resnodes wich means only one of them is buildable ingame (choosen by random at game start or by buttons).
    Maybe thoose vents make it too easy securing 2-3 hives for aliens, maybe make both purple resnodes buildable, maybe just make them hard to defend.
  • DriftwoodDriftwood Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8245Members
    Some things that come to mind:
    - Two north routes lead only to hives. Must be intended feature and it does work in Caged, but I'm still not sure about it in this layout. Direct routes to the two hives seem to make the MS-Hive times inequal, although it's balanced by the fact that the middle hive has two relatively fast routes instead of a fast one and a slow one.
    - Hives look identical in their size. Variety will probably come so I won't say more about the matter.
    - Res is focused on the outer limits of the map, even with the possible res nozzle near MS. It seems that the idea is that the marines are trapped in the middle and the aliens have the initiative as they are on the outer rim with most of the res. A reversed flow of a normal map? Location of the marine kinda start supports this theory. Could be interesting.
    - Pretty hallway intensive layout. Possible lack of variety?

    All in all, it's not a bad layout. Simplicity of routes (aside from the MS-area) should provide important battles as losing a chokepoint means giving the enemy access to a large portion of the map. However, it lacks personality. Naturally, it would help to know what it is and what it looks like inside it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Also, I find the name ns_sepulcher to be... well... bad. Sorry. It sounds like a mixture of sepultura and a blender. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • KageKage Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2016Members
    I think that there should be a couple of res nodes South of the Marine start (above the middle hive). That area is a dead zone as it stands right now, which is bad because there are many junctions that could turn out nicely.
  • KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Two north routes lead only to hives. Must be intended feature and it does work in Caged, but I'm still not sure about it in this layout. Direct routes to the two hives seem to make the MS-Hive times inequal, although it's balanced by the fact that the middle hive has two relatively fast routes instead of a fast one and a slow one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm torn on this. I kinda like it and I kinda don't. I'm thinking of a couple options at the moment, and I think I may have some good luck with one of them if I'm careful about it...

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Hives look identical in their size. Variety will probably come so I won't say more about the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They are in fact identical at this time. The rough size will remain about the same, but the exact dimensions will vary greatly between each when all is said and done. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Res is focused on the outer limits of the map, even with the possible res nozzle near MS. It seems that the idea is that the marines are trapped in the middle and the aliens have the initiative as they are on the outer rim with most of the res. A reversed flow of a normal map? Location of the marine kinda start supports this theory. Could be interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Could be, but I dunno if it's worth the risk. *shrug*

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Pretty hallway intensive layout. Possible lack of variety?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    With what I have in mind, I don't think that'll be a problem. There'll be definitive landmarks.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All in all, it's not a bad layout. Simplicity of routes (aside from the MS-area) should provide important battles as losing a chokepoint means giving the enemy access to a large portion of the map. However, it lacks personality. Naturally, it would help to know what it is and what it looks like inside it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, there's nothing inside of it at the moment. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Of course there's no personality, it's just a bunch of blocks that represent the approximate floor of the entire map. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> My goal is to have a hollow playable version very soon and then fill it in from there - the layout at this point is very easy to tweak, and will stay that way as long as I don't get too far on it before I get some basic game flow testing. My biggest annoyance with Eclipse and Veil, both before and after release, is adjusting the layout to accomodate concerns from the players. It's a huge pain in the **** most of the time, and if I can avoid it with this one, I'll give it a shot - remember, I want to make this relatively quick!

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, I find the name ns_sepulcher to be... well... bad. Sorry. It sounds like a mixture of sepultura and a blender.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You think I just made it up? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Check your dictionary. Might learn something about what I'm going after... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> It's not literal, but not too far off.

    Kage, I think that's possible, but I'll have to play around with some options. I think the new way I'm thinking of the organization and layout might help.
  • TequilaTequila Join Date: 2003-08-13 Member: 19660Members
    Sepulcher:
    1) A burial vault.
    2) A receptacle for sacred relics, especially in an altar.

    Sounds interesting <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Like I said, it's not horribly literal... but metaphorically, it's a perfect title. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BlackPantherBlackPanther Join Date: 2002-02-11 Member: 197Members
    What i hate the most is the way that the hallways just go from point A to point B, with little or no possibilities to change direction.

    In NS_eclipse, toward the center of the map, none of the hallways made you either go to the marine spawn or a hive point. You could go round the map without really ever going to any hive or marine spawn.

    To fix your layout, i suggest concentrating on the center of the map above all.
  • MooseMoose Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16248Members
    The center portion of your map looks like a skull with horns <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> was this intentional? Im guessing it was because it would fit well with the definition of its name (a burial vault).
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    I attatched a little image which has some vent suggestions (in green) and some corridor (1 single straight red line) and some room suggestions (Red lined sqaure) as I guide to some "adequate" changes to the layout. I've tried to take in account some other things people have suggested, the gameplay looks a little tough when it gets to the hives, having hardly anything leading off of them. So I made some more interesting layout areas near the hives(mainly).

    Edit :: Note- Changes are not to scale.
  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    KFS, to me that looks excellent. Dont listen to the people who say its too symmetrical, if anything make it more symmetrical. Symmetry in mapping has been a fundamental rule for balance in just about every RTS ever created. Just because its symmetrical from an overhead view does not mean that it will be hard to navigate. KFS will surely make it quite obvious where you're going through his architecture, textures, and lighting. I think a map like this is great, a balanced map where each hive is created equal and the aliens and marines dont get any advantages based solely on the random hive selection.
  • WindelkronWindelkron Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
    The two rooms that are south of MS ... make one have a resnode, and the other have a "broken" resnode (ripped out of the floor by infestation or something). Otherwise, it looks good. I happen to like symmetrical maps, they make more sense.

    BTW I think it's spelled sepulchre with the r and e like that. But I could be wrong of course (too lazy to get dictionary... arr)
  • cariocacarioca Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20511Members
    if u do thsi i draw will be very nice and hide and hunt game map.
    red is tunels, greenborder around a grey box is vents rooms.
  • MartMart Origin of SUYF Join Date: 2002-02-26 Member: 248Members
    I don't believe KFS is going for the hide and hunt style. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
  • BlackPantherBlackPanther Join Date: 2002-02-11 Member: 197Members
    Imho, i think that the left and right hive are too high up.
    Move them down so that they are about at the same level as the center bottom one.
    kinda.. "compress" the whole thing. This will make the hallways look a lot less linear and ensure you'll have more connectivity options.
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
    edited September 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--KungFuSquirrel+Sep 11 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Sep 11 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I've taken some time off from NS mapping since 2.0 released, but I'm gearing back up for getting to work on part 2 of the original Eclipse trilogy as planned (ns_eclipse, ns_aelin, and ns_valhalla). What better way to get back into the swing of things with another in-between map? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> This one's currently under the working title of ns_sepulcher, and like Veil is intended to be a small and (unlike Veil) quickly produced map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Um i'm kind of confused why you would dilute your efforts in to multiple maps. Why not put that effort into completing your trilogy? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    correct me if i'm being a retard.
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
    edited September 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--carioca+Sep 12 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (carioca @ Sep 12 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if u do thsi i draw will be very nice and hide and hunt game map.
    red is tunels, greenborder around a grey box is vents rooms. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    is this a joke? no seriously, is it?

    edit: [i'm mainly talking about the picture which has basically removed any sense of form]
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    If it is a burial chamber, make sure you have small passageways that are floor levels that require marines to crouch to get into. Small passageways are neato, kinda like the great pyramids.
  • DelarosaDelarosa Naturally Custom Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10214Members, NS1 Playtester
    not that i know any better than KFS.. but here's some changes that might help gameplay
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