The dev comment settles it for me. -Ok so it really was NOT intended to be this way, and I will try my best to avoid doing it.
@Diablus: Thanks for running into my trap, hehe. This forum isn't too bad though. Of a dozen replies, only one didn't read the original post completely. That's much better than many other forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Werewolf+Sep 4 2003, 06:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Werewolf @ Sep 4 2003, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The dev comment settles it for me. -Ok so it really was NOT intended to be this way, and I will try my best to avoid doing it.
@Diablus: Thanks for running into my trap, hehe. This forum isn't too bad though. Of a dozen replies, only one didn't read the original post completely. That's much better than many other forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yep, when i read the first sentence of two and it sounds like another bs post i skip the rest and then post what i think <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ps after i went back i realized that u silly goose u put a phony one up top
On topic: PG blocking shouldnt be an issue. The way I see it...if someone can stand still long enough to be on a PG and prevent people from coming though, then the outpost was dead already.
Off topic: For those who have never played/seen TFC played professionally let me inform real quick. This is the most TEAM based game your going to find out there. So yes, there is Offense and Defense on one team. Example...On pubs, you can do what you want, when you want and it doesnt matter. Its public play and there are no informal rules of which you speak. The offensive and and defensive teams are barely visible in a pub. I play TFC publically all the time and go Offensive soldier and no one complains. During a match though, offensive players are not supposed to attack other offensive players? Why? courtesy and FUN. What fun is it if an 2 O players run into a heavily defended base after just attacking each other? I have watched my friends play many a TFC match, and offensive medics NEVER attack other offensive medics/scouts because thats DEFENSE's job. As for the defensive team, they can do whatever they want to prevent the enemy team from capturing the flag. GG
How does this compare to NS? tournament_mode 1 .. ... tournament_mode 0. However, in the TFC community you dont need certain modes...and the mod isnt growing because its as old as half life...how many HLDM servers do you see out there? For as old as TFC is, its awsome that there are still vets around that play it.
If you disagree with me or want to learn more about the mod, pm me. I think my box is clear now, lol
<!--QuoteBegin--Werewolf+Sep 4 2003, 07:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Werewolf @ Sep 4 2003, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Almost everyone had cheats of some kind, especially the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was a funny read. Is it some kind of joke or something? Anyway... These things you explained are special abilities in which the Aliens have. Therefore, it is not cheating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I kept shooting at one of them , and he kept coming back time and again, as if he was healing himself all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Regeneration</i> upgrade, available from the <i>defense chamber</i>. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And then they had this teleport hack, so they didn't have to die - they just teleported to safety.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Redemption</i> upgrade, available from the <i>defense chamber</i>. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could swear they had some kind of wallhack too, coz they acted like they could see me coming through walls and stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Scent of Fear</i> upgrade, available from the <i>sensory chamber</i>. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Luckily one of our guys had a powerful cheat enabled too, caused all kinds of guns and stuff appear from thin air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is what you call a <i>Commander</i>, he is the team leader, gives commands and <u>drops equipment</u> and buildings.
I don't play TFC but I think that is just plain stupid.
Isn't it supposed to be similar in nature to real combat? Last time I checked in real combat everyone was offense and defense and you shot the enemy on sight. Some games make no sense at all, lol.
Lets hope that what ever the dev team decides to do it is just as awesome as what they have done already (I think it will be).
<!--QuoteBegin--Trancer+Sep 5 2003, 01:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trancer @ Sep 5 2003, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Werewolf+Sep 4 2003, 07:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Werewolf @ Sep 4 2003, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Almost everyone had cheats of some kind, especially the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was a funny read. Is it some kind of joke or something? Anyway... These things you explained are special abilities in which the Aliens have. Therefore, it is not cheating. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope you're joking, because I certainly was. I thought that was apparent from the stupidity of my statements. But then again, you occasionally hear such things. "OMG, speed hack!" <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Wooo, these players are good candidates for the <a href='http://www.darwinawards.com' target='_blank'>Darwin Award</a>. I hope the guy accusing me of cheating by using the grenade launcher wins that next time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Among the 'other' fortress communities, TFC players and their little rules are considered quite comical.
Werewolf, i wouldn't try the obvious-satire act on this board. My first post was <b>very</b> similar, only without the explanation at the end. Needless to say it didn't go terribly well:
I cannot resist to post my 2 cents about TFC: TFC is about capping the enemies flag - a game without caps is a bad game. TFC is _not_ just a deathmatch with flags and different classes and is lots more fun when you play it as intended: Capture the enemies flag.
However, this is not enforced by the mod itself so everyone may just go off deathmatching - that's why the community has established their own little rules over time, like no chasing/backtracking (this will weaken both offensive players and drastically reduce the change of a successful cap) or endlessly spamming choke points or just turtling up in your base.
While I agree that this may seem a bit hard to new players (especially when they find themselves back to the console without even knowing why), these rules were widely accepted by veteran players as the game actually benefits from it.
This can also be applied to NS gaming - 'funkiller-tactics' may be harder to spot with teams that have completely different abilities, but things like chamber-blocking PGs or oni endgame-camping the IPs for spawn-to-devour meals without actually taking the IPs down easily come to mind.
While playing as alien (it's not really a challenge playing aliens these days, is it ?) I know how tempting it is to block the PG, but I'm glad to know it's being fixed.
Teoh: Your post is not easy to recognize as satire, and for a specific reason too: There are (shooter) games that don't have crosshairs. Infiltration (which I cherish and love) for example, has no crosshair whatsoever. You pull up the weapon and aim through the iron sights, which is done so well that I am using the same system (=by using a detailed weapon model, and having the player aim through the 3d sights) in our game project <a href='http://www.illumina-game.com' target='_blank'>Illumina</a>. So, the discussion of whether or not to have a crosshair is not too absurd for me personally. I play airsoft IRL, and I love games that allow you to use the weapon as if it were a physical thing. But, and I say this to stop any discussion about this dead in it's tracks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, I can live with crosshairs in games as well, and it doesn't spoil the fun of NS for me. Not at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, this is not enforced by the mod itself so everyone may just go off deathmatching - that's why the community has established their own little rules over time, like no chasing/backtracking (this will weaken both offensive players and drastically reduce the change of a successful cap) or endlessly spamming choke points or just turtling up in your base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've cited the rules as a way to prevent people on public servers from 'playing their own game' and simply duelling people on the bridge. Instead of playing to the games objective - which is to end the game with more caps than your opponent. However, you continue these rules into serious play, in games where no player on either team is interested in anything other than the game's objective. In otherwords, you frown upon these actions even when they may be the most effective way for a team to accomplish the objective. Because of this, the rules are much more than enjoyable-pubplay guidelines, they are alterations to the game. Since these rules cannot be consistantly enforced, and are open to extreme interpretation, they are considered to be ridiculous by competitive players of other fortress games.
Play in a league or competition for Q3F, QWTH, and probably many other versions, and you will see no rules either directly or indirectly relating to 'chasing' or any other playing style. The only rules you will see are those that can be easily and consistantly enforced such as class limits. A Q3F clan match will see a certain amount of midfield fighting only when it is effective at achieving your goal. Since using trick jumps to cross the yard is common practice, the extent of this midfield fighting is minimised by game design - not by imaginary 'gentlemens rules'. Cap scores after a 30 minute period are adequate to decide a victor. Also, the only people you will see complaining about this midfield fighting, will certainly not be those considered 'veterans' :)
I have seen all extremes as far as fortress play goes. From teams that will walk past eachother without firing a single shot, to clans that field a permanent midfield piper to pipe your base door on well6 as part of their strategy. In almost all fortress versions, the most effective way for a clan to play a round with no rules is neither extreme, but a midway point - that usually produces an enjoyable game. In cases where it does not produce an enjoyable game, the game design is at fault. The rules you attempt to enforce in TFC are too subjective to ever be seriously considered for matchplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> oni endgame-camping the IPs for spawn-to-devour meals without actually taking the IPs down <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both this, and the problem of pub players playing their own game, as well as just about every other 'ettiquette' problem in any game can be solved if players follow 1 simple principle:
Play to the game's objectives (Play to win)
Get people to do that, and suddenly all your problems of prolonging games, duelling on bridges, teamkilling, SCs first in 1.04, etc. etc. immediately vanish. Of course, getting people to do it is the hard part :)
Edit: Forum censors the abbreviation for "Quake World Team Fortress"..... lovely.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
Just because something <i>is</i> in the game doesn't mean it <i>was intended</i> to be in the game. This is demonstrable by various things that were in the game but removed because they were unintentional or not good for gameplay.
I didn't know about this 'feature' of phase gates until I read about it here. I have tried it several times as differn't aliens, and it doesn't always work. As a gorge and a sulk I have had HAs appear above me while I was on the phase gate as an alien. It worked once as a Fade (I think), and once as a Fade a Marine appeared beside me.
Thanks! Well, we're 10 people working on it, so it's not just "my" game.
Mmm, I imagine Onos would be cannon fodder for the marines in IL - Devour all you want, but my tank is bigger than your maw <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
@Diablus: Thanks for running into my trap, hehe. This forum isn't too bad though. Of a dozen replies, only one didn't read the original post completely. That's much better than many other forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
@Diablus: Thanks for running into my trap, hehe. This forum isn't too bad though. Of a dozen replies, only one didn't read the original post completely. That's much better than many other forums <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep, when i read the first sentence of two and it sounds like another bs post i skip the rest and then post what i think <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ps after i went back i realized that u silly goose u put a phony one up top
PG blocking shouldnt be an issue. The way I see it...if someone can stand still long enough to be on a PG and prevent people from coming though, then the outpost was dead already.
Off topic:
For those who have never played/seen TFC played professionally let me inform real quick. This is the most TEAM based game your going to find out there. So yes, there is Offense and Defense on one team. Example...On pubs, you can do what you want, when you want and it doesnt matter. Its public play and there are no informal rules of which you speak. The offensive and and defensive teams are barely visible in a pub. I play TFC publically all the time and go Offensive soldier and no one complains. During a match though, offensive players are not supposed to attack other offensive players? Why? courtesy and FUN. What fun is it if an 2 O players run into a heavily defended base after just attacking each other? I have watched my friends play many a TFC match, and offensive medics NEVER attack other offensive medics/scouts because thats DEFENSE's job. As for the defensive team, they can do whatever they want to prevent the enemy team from capturing the flag. GG
How does this compare to NS? tournament_mode 1 .. ... tournament_mode 0. However, in the TFC community you dont need certain modes...and the mod isnt growing because its as old as half life...how many HLDM servers do you see out there? For as old as TFC is, its awsome that there are still vets around that play it.
If you disagree with me or want to learn more about the mod, pm me. I think my box is clear now, lol
This was a funny read. Is it some kind of joke or something? Anyway... These things you explained are special abilities in which the Aliens have. Therefore, it is not cheating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I kept shooting at one of them , and he kept coming back time and again, as if he was healing himself all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Regeneration</i> upgrade, available from the <i>defense chamber</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And then they had this teleport hack, so they didn't have to die - they just teleported to safety.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Redemption</i> upgrade, available from the <i>defense chamber</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could swear they had some kind of wallhack too, coz they acted like they could see me coming through walls and stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Scent of Fear</i> upgrade, available from the <i>sensory chamber</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Luckily one of our guys had a powerful cheat enabled too, caused all kinds of guns and stuff appear from thin air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what you call a <i>Commander</i>, he is the team leader, gives commands and <u>drops equipment</u> and buildings.
Isn't it supposed to be similar in nature to real combat? Last time I checked in real combat everyone was offense and defense and you shot the enemy on sight. Some games make no sense at all, lol.
Lets hope that what ever the dev team decides to do it is just as awesome as what they have done already (I think it will be).
This was a funny read. Is it some kind of joke or something? Anyway... These things you explained are special abilities in which the Aliens have. Therefore, it is not cheating.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you're joking, because I certainly was. I thought that was apparent from the stupidity of my statements.
But then again, you occasionally hear such things. "OMG, speed hack!" <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Wooo, these players are good candidates for the <a href='http://www.darwinawards.com' target='_blank'>Darwin Award</a>. I hope the guy accusing me of cheating by using the grenade launcher wins that next time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://www.darwinawards.com/i/book/book2.small.2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
"Unnatural Selection" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And besides telefragging was bloody rare...i can remember maybe 4 times when it happened during the whole of 1.04.....
Werewolf, i wouldn't try the obvious-satire act on this board. My first post was <b>very</b> similar, only without the explanation at the end. Needless to say it didn't go terribly well:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=19325' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=10&t=19325</a>
TFC is about capping the enemies flag - a game without caps is a bad game. TFC is _not_ just a deathmatch with flags and different classes and is lots more fun when you play it as intended: Capture the enemies flag.
However, this is not enforced by the mod itself so everyone may just go off deathmatching - that's why the community has established their own little rules over time, like no chasing/backtracking (this will weaken both offensive players and drastically reduce the change of a successful cap) or endlessly spamming choke points or just turtling up in your base.
While I agree that this may seem a bit hard to new players (especially when they find themselves back to the console without even knowing why), these rules were widely accepted by veteran players as the game actually benefits from it.
This can also be applied to NS gaming - 'funkiller-tactics' may be harder to spot with teams that have completely different abilities, but things like chamber-blocking PGs or oni endgame-camping the IPs for spawn-to-devour meals without actually taking the IPs down easily come to mind.
While playing as alien (it's not really a challenge playing aliens these days, is it ?) I know how tempting it is to block the PG, but I'm glad to know it's being fixed.
But, and I say this to stop any discussion about this dead in it's tracks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, I can live with crosshairs in games as well, and it doesn't spoil the fun of NS for me. Not at all.
However, this is not enforced by the mod itself so everyone may just go off deathmatching - that's why the community has established their own little rules over time, like no chasing/backtracking (this will weaken both offensive players and drastically reduce the change of a successful cap) or endlessly spamming choke points or just turtling up in your base.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've cited the rules as a way to prevent people on public servers from 'playing their own game' and simply duelling people on the bridge. Instead of playing to the games objective - which is to end the game with more caps than your opponent. However, you continue these rules into serious play, in games where no player on either team is interested in anything other than the game's objective. In otherwords, you frown upon these actions even when they may be the most effective way for a team to accomplish the objective. Because of this, the rules are much more than enjoyable-pubplay guidelines, they are alterations to the game. Since these rules cannot be consistantly enforced, and are open to extreme interpretation, they are considered to be ridiculous by competitive players of other fortress games.
Play in a league or competition for Q3F, QWTH, and probably many other versions, and you will see no rules either directly or indirectly relating to 'chasing' or any other playing style. The only rules you will see are those that can be easily and consistantly enforced such as class limits. A Q3F clan match will see a certain amount of midfield fighting only when it is effective at achieving your goal. Since using trick jumps to cross the yard is common practice, the extent of this midfield fighting is minimised by game design - not by imaginary 'gentlemens rules'. Cap scores after a 30 minute period are adequate to decide a victor. Also, the only people you will see complaining about this midfield fighting, will certainly not be those considered 'veterans' :)
I have seen all extremes as far as fortress play goes. From teams that will walk past eachother without firing a single shot, to clans that field a permanent midfield piper to pipe your base door on well6 as part of their strategy. In almost all fortress versions, the most effective way for a clan to play a round with no rules is neither extreme, but a midway point - that usually produces an enjoyable game. In cases where it does not produce an enjoyable game, the game design is at fault. The rules you attempt to enforce in TFC are too subjective to ever be seriously considered for matchplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
oni endgame-camping the IPs for spawn-to-devour meals without actually taking the IPs down
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both this, and the problem of pub players playing their own game, as well as just about every other 'ettiquette' problem in any game can be solved if players follow 1 simple principle:
Play to the game's objectives (Play to win)
Get people to do that, and suddenly all your problems of prolonging games, duelling on bridges, teamkilling, SCs first in 1.04, etc. etc. immediately vanish. Of course, getting people to do it is the hard part :)
Edit: Forum censors the abbreviation for "Quake World Team Fortress"..... lovely.
So it isn't 100% blockage all the time.
Mmm, I imagine Onos would be cannon fodder for the marines in IL - Devour all you want, but my tank is bigger than your maw <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->