FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<span style='color:red'>***UNLOCKED***</span> - By request, this topic has been reopened and pruned of any posts which were found to be encouraging flames or insulting. Do not insult others, or their playing style. If I see any of it repeated in this thread (You know who you are), youre going in my little black book, which you really don't want.
8 matches, 2 ties. (Yes, we were one of them. Sigh. My fault. I was in the chair, knew they'd gone SC, and grabbed MT instead of gun ups. Durr.)
Looks balanced to me, when the better clan wins 2-0. Also, thanks for the demos, sYn. Don't suppose we could get a commander demo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Were either of those ties marine-marine wins? I would be interested in seeing if 2 evenly matched teams can both win their marine rounds. If evenly matched teams are both winning their alien rounds, then an imbalance still exists. It looks like Flayra is getting closer though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really understand why two evenly matched teams both winning their marine rounds would make the game more balanced than the opposite.
Well syn certainly have their **** together, I'll say that much!
Always beautiful to watch a game where it doesn't really matte who you're watching because the team is winning it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Would like to see a match between more evenly matched competitors though, if only to see how it pans out in that sort of scenario! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the download sYn, and yes Kavasa commander demo's would be cool <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> haha. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--(e)kent+Sep 3 2003, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Sep 3 2003, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't really understand why two evenly matched teams both winning their marine rounds would make the game more balanced than the opposite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would make it more balanced if either situation (alien-alien or marine-marine) could happen. If all ties end up alien-alien, then the alien's are still too powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would make it more balanced if either situation (alien-alien or marine-marine) could happen. If all ties end up alien-alien, then the alien's are still too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus lord, I don't know if that will ever happen. When all is said and done, this is an FPS, and acheiving totally perfect knife-edge balance just doesn't seem real possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Sep 3 2003, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 3 2003, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus lord, I don't know if that will ever happen. When all is said and done, this is an FPS, and acheiving totally perfect knife-edge balance just doesn't seem real possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you are saying that both teams winning their rounds as marines will never happen? I don't think it would take "perfect knife-edge" balance for that to occur, but if it doesn't <i>ever</i> happen, then you can easily say that the aliens still have the advantage.
I think it's fundamentally flawed to think that a marine-marine situation is any more "balanced" than an alien-alien situation. "Balance" as you see it would be teams of equal skill winning each side of the map twice if you played four rounds (thus giving both teams the capacity to win both sides without the match concluding prematurely). However, in the current CAL setup, if one team wins both sides sequentially, they are awarded the match, so any "balance" analysis is fundamentally flawed. If you're going to be looking at statistical variations and imbalances, you have to isolate far too many variables (ie, map, time of day, punctuality of clans, starters on the roster locked, same commanders, same build orders, same locations of structures, same build/tech-up time on marines, same hive timing on kharaa, same subistitutes) for a single 3 round match or even a season of 3 round matches to really tell you about true statistical balance based on win/loss ratios.
The beautiful thing about NS is the RT<i>S</i> part that implies <i>strategy</i> is an essential segment of gameplay. With every round on every map, the one thing that holds true is a very old axiom: the greatest plan in the world survives only until first contact. Nothing is perfect, so every strategy alters accordingly as the game progresses, or it fails. The integral part of this paragraph goes back up to the top when dealing with isolating variables in the balance debate. I've never met any two commanders that do the exact same thing in the exact same way, and therefore, marine gameplay is never truly the same under any two distinct commanders. Applying this to CAL matches, it directly affects the overall effectiveness of the team, and a commander's impact is magnified enormously under such intense gameplay conditions where every res and every second counts.
Sorry, but I must not be explaining myself properly. I am not saying that a marine-marine scenario would equate to a more balanced game than an alien-alien one. I am saying that in a balanced game you would be just as likely to see a marine-marine tie, as you would an alien-alien tie. If <b>every</b> tie game has both sides winning as alien (or marine), then it would be reasonable to call that side overpowered. In my original question, I was just asking what the results of the 2 tie matches were (I know that one was alien-alien).
I suppose I could see a marine-marine tie. [GoM] has been tending to have much better teamwork as marines. So if we met our twin, and both sides were on their marine game, then sure it could happen.
That said, aliens do have a slight advantage in an equal-skill setting. This is due to the fact that there will be a lot of people dying, and a single outstanding skulk on the alien team turns into a single outstand fade, which can slice through 3-5 marines much more consistently than a skulk.
I have some great demos of marine wins during scrims. Two of my favorites are my clan (Exigent) vs. cX and Exigent vs. dn` If only I had some place to upload them.
STD is hurting right now cause most of thier long time members left, i myself left cause i don't want to play competitivly right now, so they have 3 "original" members right now, so of course they got thier **** destroyed
<!--QuoteBegin--kwitcherbitchin+Sep 4 2003, 05:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kwitcherbitchin @ Sep 4 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have some great demos of marine wins during scrims. Two of my favorites are my clan (Exigent) vs. cX and Exigent vs. dn` If only I had some place to upload them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> oh ho
<a href='http://www.froggeh.com/calseason1demos/scrimmehs/exi-cx.zip' target='_blank'>Exigent vs cX</a> <a href='http://www.froggeh.com/calseason1demos/scrimmehs/exi-dnbeef.zip' target='_blank'>Exigent vs dn`</a>
Comments
I won't have this ridiculous continental bashing once again. Quoting one of my favorite movies: "You're all equally worthless here."
8 matches, 2 ties. (Yes, we were one of them. Sigh. My fault. I was in the chair, knew they'd gone SC, and grabbed MT instead of gun ups. Durr.)
Looks balanced to me, when the better clan wins 2-0. Also, thanks for the demos, sYn. Don't suppose we could get a commander demo? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Were either of those ties marine-marine wins? I would be interested in seeing if 2 evenly matched teams can both win their marine rounds. If evenly matched teams are both winning their alien rounds, then an imbalance still exists. It looks like Flayra is getting closer though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really understand why two evenly matched teams both winning their marine rounds would make the game more balanced than the opposite.
Always beautiful to watch a game where it doesn't really matte who you're watching because the team is winning it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Would like to see a match between more evenly matched competitors though, if only to see how it pans out in that sort of scenario! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the download sYn, and yes Kavasa commander demo's would be cool <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> haha. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
It would make it more balanced if either situation (alien-alien or marine-marine) could happen. If all ties end up alien-alien, then the alien's are still too powerful.
Jesus lord, I don't know if that will ever happen. When all is said and done, this is an FPS, and acheiving totally perfect knife-edge balance just doesn't seem real possible.
So you are saying that both teams winning their rounds as marines will never happen? I don't think it would take "perfect knife-edge" balance for that to occur, but if it doesn't <i>ever</i> happen, then you can easily say that the aliens still have the advantage.
The beautiful thing about NS is the RT<i>S</i> part that implies <i>strategy</i> is an essential segment of gameplay. With every round on every map, the one thing that holds true is a very old axiom: the greatest plan in the world survives only until first contact. Nothing is perfect, so every strategy alters accordingly as the game progresses, or it fails. The integral part of this paragraph goes back up to the top when dealing with isolating variables in the balance debate. I've never met any two commanders that do the exact same thing in the exact same way, and therefore, marine gameplay is never truly the same under any two distinct commanders. Applying this to CAL matches, it directly affects the overall effectiveness of the team, and a commander's impact is magnified enormously under such intense gameplay conditions where every res and every second counts.
That said, aliens do have a slight advantage in an equal-skill setting. This is due to the fact that there will be a lot of people dying, and a single outstanding skulk on the alien team turns into a single outstand fade, which can slice through 3-5 marines much more consistently than a skulk.
I honestly don't think it's a big deal, though.
If only I had some place to upload them.
If only I had some place to upload them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh ho
<a href='http://www.froggeh.com/calseason1demos/scrimmehs/exi-cx.zip' target='_blank'>Exigent vs cX</a>
<a href='http://www.froggeh.com/calseason1demos/scrimmehs/exi-dnbeef.zip' target='_blank'>Exigent vs dn`</a>