Relocate = Win?
The_Red_Menace
Join Date: 2003-09-01 Member: 20439Members
Join Date: 2003-09-01 Member: 20439Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why I am a fan</div>
I haven't seen a discussion on relocation here lately, so I thought I'd bring it up again. Now sure, if your team is full of n00bz, and they're just going to walk into the maw of a greedy skulk, then maybe it's best to hunker down a bit. But if you have just 2 or 3 guys good enough to stick together and survive the run to a now locale, relocating seems like gold.
In a game, I as a commander have a set of goals whose achievement is possible by a number of methods, but nonetheless I try to keep in mind, "How close am I to this goal?" as I am commanding. Of course these are
<ul>
<li>Secure a hive
<li>Get resources while denying them to my enemy
<li>Obtain upgrades in a timely manner
<li>Eliminate any remaining hives
</ul>
Securing one hive is of course useful because it means that at the worst, you will have two hives to deal with. This is immeasurably less dangerous than a Khara with three hive advantage, naturally, so I want my hold on that hive to be as strong as possible. What would be stronger than my own base? Any reinforcements will appear there. Any turrets I would place at the hive would have probably been placed anywhere to defend it, and now they're defending my most valuable materiel assets as a marine.
Relocating for me is the ideal way of securing a hive and economizing on valuable early game resources. Once that's done, the field of play is open to a lot of options. Several people might advocate securing a second hive. In my experience, this is the lesser of the two big options. The other is to maximize efforts in resource acquisition/denial.
No one will argue the value of getting resources and stopping your foe from getting them, but some people think that keeping a Khara down to 1 hive is the way to win. I've seen that work in 1.04. But Khara with 1 hive and a sturdy share of resources will usually be able to muscle into your one defended hive on a public server. Odds of defending it are better elsewhere, but I still feel that it's better to save the res I would have spent there, and instead use it on upgrades and on expanding my resource gathering infrastructure. 40 res spent on a hive is 40 res I know aren't going to be spent on an Onos any time soon, after all.
That said, I'm still a huge fan of phase gates. Phase gates are often my first upgrade, as no tool is as crucial to securing whatever it is you decide to go after, be it a hive, a choke point, or a double-node. I'm not stingy with my res. The point is more to deny the res points to the enemy than to keep them for myself. That way a blitzkrieg can go smoothly, with a group of HA fitted marines moving first to one hive, and then to the other before the aliens can recover from the sucker punch.
Easy as case. Thank you relocate!
I haven't seen a discussion on relocation here lately, so I thought I'd bring it up again. Now sure, if your team is full of n00bz, and they're just going to walk into the maw of a greedy skulk, then maybe it's best to hunker down a bit. But if you have just 2 or 3 guys good enough to stick together and survive the run to a now locale, relocating seems like gold.
In a game, I as a commander have a set of goals whose achievement is possible by a number of methods, but nonetheless I try to keep in mind, "How close am I to this goal?" as I am commanding. Of course these are
<ul>
<li>Secure a hive
<li>Get resources while denying them to my enemy
<li>Obtain upgrades in a timely manner
<li>Eliminate any remaining hives
</ul>
Securing one hive is of course useful because it means that at the worst, you will have two hives to deal with. This is immeasurably less dangerous than a Khara with three hive advantage, naturally, so I want my hold on that hive to be as strong as possible. What would be stronger than my own base? Any reinforcements will appear there. Any turrets I would place at the hive would have probably been placed anywhere to defend it, and now they're defending my most valuable materiel assets as a marine.
Relocating for me is the ideal way of securing a hive and economizing on valuable early game resources. Once that's done, the field of play is open to a lot of options. Several people might advocate securing a second hive. In my experience, this is the lesser of the two big options. The other is to maximize efforts in resource acquisition/denial.
No one will argue the value of getting resources and stopping your foe from getting them, but some people think that keeping a Khara down to 1 hive is the way to win. I've seen that work in 1.04. But Khara with 1 hive and a sturdy share of resources will usually be able to muscle into your one defended hive on a public server. Odds of defending it are better elsewhere, but I still feel that it's better to save the res I would have spent there, and instead use it on upgrades and on expanding my resource gathering infrastructure. 40 res spent on a hive is 40 res I know aren't going to be spent on an Onos any time soon, after all.
That said, I'm still a huge fan of phase gates. Phase gates are often my first upgrade, as no tool is as crucial to securing whatever it is you decide to go after, be it a hive, a choke point, or a double-node. I'm not stingy with my res. The point is more to deny the res points to the enemy than to keep them for myself. That way a blitzkrieg can go smoothly, with a group of HA fitted marines moving first to one hive, and then to the other before the aliens can recover from the sucker punch.
Easy as case. Thank you relocate!
Comments
Of course if the Aliens start in the middle hive, the plan doesn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Relocation is good if you relocate at the right place and with proper turret placement,we all know a badly chosen location can obliterate an expansion (Reactor Room comes into mind....)
Hive rooms can be good but placing turrets in places where bilebombs can reach is just a deathwish
But when Onos start coming into play I suggest you keep your troops at base to fous fire on the Onos,if he dies or redeems,quickly move out to check if a gorge is building,usually Gorges tend to pair with Onos to secretly place SCs and sneak into you base.....but then of course you have an Obs don't you?
I'm afraid I've given away too many tips....
I prefer a relocate to a non-hive location giving you advantages like a better defendable location or double res points and easy access to hives.
On Origin double res is a good relocation point as you have a two res points and can easily lock down a hive (vent) and have a easy route to both other hives.
On Hera i prefer to relocate into General Cargo Storage. Easy to defend there and you can siege double res. Also two hives can reached easy.
...but hive locations usually have one too.
I prefer a relocate to a non-hive location giving you advantages like a better defendable location or double res points and easy access to hives.
On Origin double res is a good relocation point as you have a two res points and can easily lock down a hive (vent) and have a easy route to both other hives.
On Hera i prefer to relocate into General Cargo Storage. Easy to defend there and you can siege double res. Also two hives can reached easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best thing about relocation: <b>it's flexible!</b>
A good comm can look at maps and see any areas that have an advantage over marine start. Depending on the map their may be a few. However don't get hung up on 'a hive location/double res'. Lots of places are good, main aft is a favourite of mine. Also purification on caged.
Remember that if you are just near a hive then you can probably out spawn aliens and just keep attacking (It's rare that ALL aliens will defend even a hive, some will be doing other stuff). I find obvious tactical locations like dual res/hives are often rushed by aliens to prevent relocations.
I have a considerably higher win ratio (3/5) for aliens starting with a side hive (like cargo or powersile) than my record (2/6) for aliens having the center hive. Side hives give me so much free res :/
Aliens need to be allowed to choose their hive, since relocating can make some hives far worse than others.
Of course, out of 3 game's I've seen this in, once as alien, once as com and once as a marine soldier, it only worked for the marines when i was alien. i tried setting up and another com tried setting it up but the aliens had caught on and stopped us from completing it. blinking fades went up and took down the TFs, we were down to 0 res towers so we lost. never got enough turrets to chew up the fades fast enough. the hardest part is you need a lot of time to set it up properly and some dedicated teammates to JP around and build your turrets
The whole point of relocation is to put you in a more strategically superior position. What strategically superior is depends on the comm of course <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Remember, as soon as the first skulk finds your empty marine spawn, the aliens WILL be looking for you.
Bad relocations involve double res nodes. They are ALWAYS full of vents and you will NEVER hold them.
Hives are somewhat better choices.
Middle hive - PROS - rush either hive, centrally placed, stops free alien traffic
CONS - Pincer movement, effectively lose when aliens get both hives.
Furthest hive - PROS - Faaaar from the aliens, you only need to rush in one direction
CONS - Aliens move about freely, 2nd hive up quickly.
If you can counter the cons, then go for it.
IMHO the safer bet is a easily defendable room that is placed close to hives AND res. Generator is a good idea (on the map with Red Room, Viaduct hive, etc) since it can be *held* but aliens are wise to this relocation. Use at your peril.
I'd say 80% of relocations fail due to BAD PLACEMENT (either choice of room or placement of IPs beside vents....) with 10% snuffing it due to a massively inept team. The remaining 10% work, perhaps 2% of which actually result in a win.
Why the comm tries to throw down a res tower (just highlights the node doesn't actually drop the rt) over each hive to find the ones the aliens hold. (Only one that has the drop option blocked if you act fast.)
Why the comm tries to throw down a res tower (just highlights the node doesn't actually drop the rt) over each hive to find the ones the aliens hold. (Only one that has the drop option blocked if you act fast.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
O_O I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip!
All you have to do is place your dang cursor over the fricking res node for the hive. If you hear the glub glub sound it is their hive, if you don't it isn't. No trying to drop res, no need to ping, simple effective, EASY. Sheesh what a group of nOObs.
I have a considerably higher win ratio (3/5) for aliens starting with a side hive (like cargo or powersile) than my record (2/6) for aliens having the center hive. Side hives give me so much free res :/
Aliens need to be allowed to choose their hive, since relocating can make some hives far worse than others. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes yes yes. I think relocating to center is much more effective in the long run than relocating to a hive for several reasons: generally, aliens are going to go for more hives rather than fight their hearts out trying to take the middle, leaving you just a bit more leeway. Also, the middle is generally a double res so there's two res you can easily defend instead of just the one at 'Rine start.
There's more but I have class <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
All you have to do is place your dang cursor over the fricking res node for the hive. If you hear the glub glub sound it is their hive, if you don't it isn't. No trying to drop res, no need to ping, simple effective, EASY. Sheesh what a group of nOObs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch what your saying
Here's a very important tip,avoid placing important buildings around a vent,not even underneath it,it will fall easily to bilebombs skulks can zip through turrets and make a blindspot if they have timed it right.
This especially goes for armories,proto labs,arms labs,IPs,CCs and PGs.Ah yes, I forgot the Observatory as well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course if the Aliens start in the middle hive, the plan doesn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Middle hive is cool but with some good aliens and lousy marines (like pub servers) that's one way to lose just getting the hive furthest away and then getting the middle works fine... only one tf and 3-4 turrets in main base are needed cuz there's only skulks for the start...
Ideally, I want to have heavies or JPs at about the time the enemy get enough res to roll out a good number of onos. If I'm lucky, the aliens have been incompetent enough to let me get a loose hold on a 2nd hive (I'm assuming here I've relocated to the first).
Lately I favor an endgame HA blitzkrieg. Send in 4-6 HAs with GLs, shotties, and tear up one hive, then move to the next while they're still recovering from the blow, ignoring any counterattacks to res points. If the aliens are attacking res, that means they're not defending the hive, and if the last hive goes down, I don't need that res anymore anyway. Sieging IS expensive and usually a sieging location is not a good location to secure a hive, so it's pretty much a one time investment of that res. They also tend to require as much if not more teamwork, and you usually need HAs or other equipment just to hold the location anyway, since at that point advanced life forms have come into play.
HA squads tend to require no more teamwork and coordination than a siege, your investment keeps paying back dividends, and it's a lot faster then sieges. Plus since you're just beelining for proto upgrades, you can usually pull this off on just 4 RTs, though it helps to go kill theirs to delay their onosing.
so even if you kill that starting hive (or 2nd hive built) my 3rd one will be done... usually someone has the res to go onos and start eatting you, and i would have gotten all 3 upgrades...
your first hive killed had D for instance, you go to kill the other that had sensory, then i put up the hive you just killed and throw down movement, thus your fighting even harder aliens when you come back... low on res because of those "disturbances" you ignored, and we have an onos or two waiting in ambush for your HA train. I have played games just like you described and won using this strat about 8 out of 10 times (noob onos would lose the other 2 times)
Lesson learned... build at least a rudementary defense or throw down a PG at the very least before leaving to kill the next hive.
Most cases, marines take hive 1. They rush to hive 2, aliens have it. They siege. Eventually kill the hive. They move to hive 3. Siege again. In the meantime, while the rines are sieging, Hive 2 comes back into alien hands.
Dropping a PG or base won't necessarily help, the trick is to move quickly and efficiently. Knock down hive two, move to hive 3. Move back to hive 2 if you have to. The worst thing you can do is give aliens time to consolidate or sap your defences.
What do you mean? You quote me but your post has nothing to do with what I said, please elaborate.
Relocation is often saved my hide (or at least my teams) from alien swarms. Lol, I dont have a particular story tho.... NS ROCKS!!! *rips clothes off and runs down the hall* <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
many coms have tried relocataing but got wiped out by too many early fades and even onos. this one however had a JP sneak off to the cockpit room, while the rest of us started a little base in that room with the rainy pipe. the buggers soon started attacking Pipe base and the rines and i were told to keep fighting them whilest he got a CC and the basics built at cockpit. when the base was run over and i died, i saw the new base on spect with all the rines that IPed there.
after distroying our decoy and the rines defending, they thought there were only a few survivers hiding to delay the game. imagine their surprise when a HA team started to sweep the hives clean.
so there's a new relocation tactic: faking death <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
so even if you kill that starting hive (or 2nd hive built) my 3rd one will be done... usually someone has the res to go onos and start eatting you, and i would have gotten all 3 upgrades...
Lesson learned... build at least a rudementary defense or throw down a PG at the very least before leaving to kill the next hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Usually that's not how I play it. I would do that if I was desperate, but usually by the time I have heavies the following things have happened: I have locked down one hive. I have pursued an aggressive res denial strategy to keep the aliens to 3 or fewer RTs (this tends to be my sweet spot where aliens are really starved). I have 4 or more RTs of my own. I have weapon and armor 2, possibly weapon 3, with any remaining upgrades to be completed while the HAs assault the hive.
The result is that I can usually take down one hive, then the other, and on the off chance that they actually started putting up the 2nd hive again (or assaulting the one I locked down) I can finish off hive 1 before hive 2 is rebuilt and then go back and mop up a very vulnerable position (while most of the aliens are waiting for a hive so they can respawn). Furthermore, Heavies will have wiped out any remaining res the aliens had.
The strategy is a bit different if they already have 2 or more Onos. This usually means the res denial campaign has gone badly for me, and I pursue a more conservative approach, generally plunking a lot more money into sieges, and trying to skirmish the aliens outside of their hives in hopes of taking out a few higher life forms.
Also remember, hopefully I've already relocated to one of your hives, which means you have a max of two to work with. The worst I have to worry about is that you've got 2 hives (which means usually mc + dc).
Still, relocation is an option on most maps. On some, good comms consider it a requirement. Like Bast, for example, with it's horrid MS.
CC costs money, and ic can be used to turretfarm base more effectively...also, you dont need to switch CCs midgame when skulks starts eating it...
Also; its risky, you might end up loosing after 2 mins due to a relocation
Granted laming up base can sometimes allow you a second wind.... but generally if they're in a position to charge your base, the aliens have won.
If you relocate in a smart place you can catch aliens flatfooted, cf hive rush while they're busy smashing what they *think* is your base.