Does 2.01 Help Marines Where It Matters?
MistenTH
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">I'll be better off waiting for 2.1</div> 2.01 has some great changes that will certainly give marines more of a fighting chance, but the fact is, it does not address the most critical issue.
The speed at which the Kharaa can obtain fades and onos. I'm talking about pub play here, and many factors affect how marines do against the Kharaa, which currently, is badly. Most of the maps feature dark, short and narrow corridors, which allow easy ambushes and make dodging useless. Most of the maps have RTs nearer to the Kharaa than the marines (e.g. Lost, Hera). Many maps have lifts and what not that actually extend marine travel time and efficiency by 2 times if it was just a simple corridor (e.g. Bast, Hera).
The end result, between a stronger skulk, easier biting, terrain and public play is that, marines tend to get massacred. Even if a Kharaa team plays hap-hazardly, the sheer number of res from RFK allows them enough for hives and onos within 10 minutes. A Kharaa team that builds a minimum of 4 RTs can achieve onos in 8 minutes. And that's on pub.
There's nothing a marine team can do in 10 minutes to counter that. RT expansion simply gives the Kharaa plenty of time to cap their own RTs and save up for onos. A fast aggressive approach might work, such as a fast siege, or RT-take downs, might work, but that leaves your main base vulnerable, and they can easily get a 2nd hive and more RTs up, whereas you've been sieging off 1-2 RTs.
In short, 10-15 kills as a skulk, and with 4 RTs, you can probably onos in 8-10 minutes, which is HARDLY enough time for marines to do anything other than turret farm a hive and their base. Marines move and expand too slowly, and the hostile environment of most of the maps negates their range advantage. So they get massacred. Leading to RFK. Leading to faster onos and hives.
2.01 makes marine RTs cheaper by 5, but electricity still costs a bomb, and that affects marine expansion speed. Redemption onos leaving behind marines will only affect games in which marines already have an overwhelming advantage. Redemption onos currently can turn the tide of battle from 1 hive and 1 RT to victory as long as they keep the marines away from their hive, even if they are fully suited in HASGHMGGL.
From what I see, 2.01 isn't going to affect the win ratio too much for marines. As long as the Kharaa can obtain fast onos and hives in just 10 minutes, marines are screwed. My main gib is not with the fast RT capping of the Kharaa, but the RFK. Many RTs I can handle, get the marines to kill them. RFK...tell your marines NOT to engage? How are you going to win that way?
The speed at which the Kharaa can obtain fades and onos. I'm talking about pub play here, and many factors affect how marines do against the Kharaa, which currently, is badly. Most of the maps feature dark, short and narrow corridors, which allow easy ambushes and make dodging useless. Most of the maps have RTs nearer to the Kharaa than the marines (e.g. Lost, Hera). Many maps have lifts and what not that actually extend marine travel time and efficiency by 2 times if it was just a simple corridor (e.g. Bast, Hera).
The end result, between a stronger skulk, easier biting, terrain and public play is that, marines tend to get massacred. Even if a Kharaa team plays hap-hazardly, the sheer number of res from RFK allows them enough for hives and onos within 10 minutes. A Kharaa team that builds a minimum of 4 RTs can achieve onos in 8 minutes. And that's on pub.
There's nothing a marine team can do in 10 minutes to counter that. RT expansion simply gives the Kharaa plenty of time to cap their own RTs and save up for onos. A fast aggressive approach might work, such as a fast siege, or RT-take downs, might work, but that leaves your main base vulnerable, and they can easily get a 2nd hive and more RTs up, whereas you've been sieging off 1-2 RTs.
In short, 10-15 kills as a skulk, and with 4 RTs, you can probably onos in 8-10 minutes, which is HARDLY enough time for marines to do anything other than turret farm a hive and their base. Marines move and expand too slowly, and the hostile environment of most of the maps negates their range advantage. So they get massacred. Leading to RFK. Leading to faster onos and hives.
2.01 makes marine RTs cheaper by 5, but electricity still costs a bomb, and that affects marine expansion speed. Redemption onos leaving behind marines will only affect games in which marines already have an overwhelming advantage. Redemption onos currently can turn the tide of battle from 1 hive and 1 RT to victory as long as they keep the marines away from their hive, even if they are fully suited in HASGHMGGL.
From what I see, 2.01 isn't going to affect the win ratio too much for marines. As long as the Kharaa can obtain fast onos and hives in just 10 minutes, marines are screwed. My main gib is not with the fast RT capping of the Kharaa, but the RFK. Many RTs I can handle, get the marines to kill them. RFK...tell your marines NOT to engage? How are you going to win that way?
Comments
I've been on aliens and marines in 2.01d, and in both cases, marines absolutely dominate the aliens as long as they don't blow the early game.
Exactly...you either go all out for a two hive lock down and hope the res you accumulate will let you take the third hive before the aliens start dismantelling your outposts (seen this done in 2.01 with a competant marine team) or you basically deny the aliens the third hive, but concentrate mainly on keeping res and upgrading....once lvl3 weapons, lvl2 armour and HA is researched for me, I can usually have a nice pool of res to get 4 people into HA with shotguns and welders...as long as the marines have been sensible in attacking any onoses/fades that come along.
Really once marines are in HA it's almost game over, and only a matter of time.
On the counter, aliens still need to learn it's a res game, and that taking out marines res *for the team* should always outweigh taking out individual marines for themselves. Most of my alien loses in 2.0 and 2.01 have been for little other reason than lack of teamwork amongst the aliens, something I feel is because kharaa are seen as the easy side, so the players that don't know how to play as a team join them more. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
also sucks that the rez/form-limit-per-hive is gone. hive lockdowns get run through by entire teams of onos <span style='color:red'>who just won't DIE!</span> i've seen even the best coms get up great defences just for them to get smashed up by high level kharaa
i think to keep up with the gorge there should be an option of multiple coms. it's been talked about before and a lot say it takes some pressure off the player if there's another guy watching your back at the other CC. i for one can plan out good building placement but i suck at commanding rines. would be sweet if i could drop a CC somewhere and someone can keep the guys alive
Yes, marines find it hard initially, but aren't they being thrown into an infested area with nothing to start with? Shouldn't it be slightly difficult to gain a foothold? And as has been said, shotties/upgrades are your friends. Hell most shotguns pay for themselves with RFK and you losing less structures.
Actually he's nerfing the aliens while boosting the marines, at the same time.
The game keeps going from one extreme to the other - it's starting to look like Flayra cannot balance it properly. It's a good mod but he just needs to understand that you don't do such huge moves as cheapening the rine upgrades by 10 while simultaneously nerfing the aliens, especially skulk.
Personally, I'd like to see a version of v2.0z (standard) released, perhaps as NSv2.005, just so the dynamics that had been worked out could be seen, as well as why the fun-tweaks so close to release had such an impact on the game balance. But that's unlikely, if the z source even still exists.
Even without Luck.
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Nah, you're not right Talesin. 2.0z wasn't balanced at all and marines lost even more than in this version because the possibility of a rush wasn't present.
2.0z was fundamentally flawed with the activation time and spawn umbra and the current version is much better. Remember that in pub play with at least 8 players (edit: per team of course <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->), the game is nearly perfectly balanced. The problem lies at clan matches where the alien team has only 6 players and thus gains resources too fast.
Sure, with 4-5 RT's and RFK a good skulk can go Onos after 8-10 mins. So? He obviosuly didn't spend any re on the team, that's a good thing, he didn't go lerk, which is a blessing because early lerks are a curse. Basically, up until that 8-10 minutes he didn't do much good for the team other then kill Marines.
After 5-6 minutes I usually have the armory upgraded (nowadays I *always* make sure to have GL's when the 2:nd hive comes online), so HA or JP should be either done or on its way when the Onos show up. Besides, one Onos won't be a real problem unless he has a team backing him up. Meaning umbra. Which is what the GL's are for (well, that and bilebombing gorges in vents). And now the damage of the GL has been boosted as well.
These combined factors will most likely make a HUGE difference:
- Nerfed celerity. This really is a huge deal. With celerity I can take out 1-3 Marines, without it maybe 1 if I am lucky.
- Lowered RT cost. This allows for 3 RT's instead of 2 at the start and also allows for a bit more reckless expansion.
- Lowered upgrade costs. Huge deal. Armor lvl1 will be ready within minutes of game start now and weps will be coming up shortly after.
If you make use of these changes you will probably notice a massive boost in Marines wins. If you don't, you will be back here whining for alien nerfs again I guess.
Hey, I suck as a skulk. Without upgrades I am toast against any decent Marine unless I get lucky. With celerity, even a crappy skulk like me can take them down. Actually I suck as pretty much all Aliens except gorge.
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Securing 3 places at once ? Theses gorges must be OC happy then , which means they aren't using their res on important buildings (RT/upgrade/hive)
Multiple gorges make the investments more costly : 10*gorging aliens.
Though theses gorges can defend themselves 1on1 , they can't react to a threat at the other side of the map fast enough , with less skulks a marine group has more chances of pushing towards an important place (hive location , double res , choke point)
Not only the shotgun rush means doom for a whole team of tempgorges , but squads of 3 decent marines can take out many alien RTs , destroying investments of 25 res in no time. If they elec their own nodes , the hive 1 aliens are in big trouble.
Dodgy investments aren't only a marine weakness , the aliens can make strategic errors too. I am generally the one to drop the 2nd hive , but sometimes unexpected marines come in and ruin my day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also sucks that the rez/form-limit-per-hive is gone. hive lockdowns get run through by entire teams of onos <span style='color:red'>who just won't DIE!</span> i've seen even the best coms get up great defences just for them to get smashed up by high level kharaa<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The turret light damage vs onos is here for a reason. Onos can end stalemates , even without DCs if they are backed by gorges.
A whole team of onos vs non-level-3-HMG-marines means an owned marine team. It's the way the game is meant to be , if you lock 2 hives but fail to secure enough nodes then you are doomed to be crushed by mass onos eventually.
To secure a 2 hives lockdown , place mines. Bunches of them. At 1 hive there is no way any alien can blow them without dying. 2 mine packs : 20 res , onos : 100 res. If the aliens don't have 5 times more nodes than you , then you're fine.
Hey, I suck as a skulk. Without upgrades I am toast against any decent Marine unless I get lucky. With celerity, even a crappy skulk like me can take them down. Actually I suck as pretty much all Aliens except gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so if you suck, why do you state your opinions as facts
Let me try to make this easy to understand for you:
Skulk is good.
Skulk with celerity is much gooder.
Celerity is made less good.
Skulk still good.
Skulk with celerity is just a bit gooder.
There we go. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
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/me fluffles Stoneburg
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Seconded.
Well I just checked "Biggies" post record, it seems like they are made up of only posts about how good he is and how everyone else sucks. So I think I'll just ignore him from now on.<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->