Testing The Waters
mikachu
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2782Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2782Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Gunman based map</div> See title; I'm just testing the waters here.
Anybody remember Gunman Chronicles? That something of a failure of a commercial Half-Life product (the one that is never mentioned by Valve?) Well I really enjoyed that game and its "high noon in deep space fighting against high-tech cowboys and aliens" setting. And thus half-wittedly decided to make a map based on said game.
Controversies:
1) Using the Rewolf wad
2) Having the command chair in a big western style house, complete with skulk enter-able chimney and windows.
3) In accordance to above, having many parts of the map OUTSIDE where lorks on clorfs can attack.
4) Etc.
I know that this map will NEVER be an official one, but what do y'all think about the gameplay potential? Basically what I want to make is an interesting, viable outdoor map for NS, complete with the defense of individual homes, caves, etc.
Do you guys think I'm wasting my time? Like the idea? Something?
Anybody remember Gunman Chronicles? That something of a failure of a commercial Half-Life product (the one that is never mentioned by Valve?) Well I really enjoyed that game and its "high noon in deep space fighting against high-tech cowboys and aliens" setting. And thus half-wittedly decided to make a map based on said game.
Controversies:
1) Using the Rewolf wad
2) Having the command chair in a big western style house, complete with skulk enter-able chimney and windows.
3) In accordance to above, having many parts of the map OUTSIDE where lorks on clorfs can attack.
4) Etc.
I know that this map will NEVER be an official one, but what do y'all think about the gameplay potential? Basically what I want to make is an interesting, viable outdoor map for NS, complete with the defense of individual homes, caves, etc.
Do you guys think I'm wasting my time? Like the idea? Something?
Comments
Not a good idea.
Not a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gunman Chronicals was a commercial product released by Valve, as with any of thier commercial mods/games, all the resources are free to use for HL development, even in other mods.
and yeah, its funny Valve doesnt mention GC, was it that bad?
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:gray'>remember PowerPlay?</span></span>
NS 0wn2 j00 4ll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok enough spam
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gunman Chronicals was a commercial product released by Valve, as with any of thier commercial mods/games, all the resources are free to use for HL development, even in other mods.
and yeah, its funny Valve doesnt mention GC, was it that bad?
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:gray'>remember PowerPlay?</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where does it state this? I can't see this being true, as i'm sure they are copyrighted. Just like you can't use NS textures for other half-life mods, etc, why would it be ok to use GunMans?
But it is the only game that was made on a modified HL engine.
Well.. not anymore cuz James Bond 007: nightfire also uses a supped up HL engine ... and so will CS:CZ... eventually <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is why it wasn't included in the Plantinum 2 HL collection.
This is why you shouldn't be using GC's wads.
Just like your respect NS's wads, respect other peoples wads.
Get their permission to use them, before you act.
As far as Valve and Gearbox are concerned, it's alright to use artwork (models, textures, sounds, etc.) from the list below as convered under the terms and conditions in your SDK license. We haven't heard back from Sierra on all of them yet, but for now here's the current approved list:
Half-Life (yes)
Team Fortress Classic (yes)
Counter-Strike (yes)
Opposing Force (yes)
<b>Gunman Chronicles</b> (yes)
Blue Shift (yes)
Ricochet (yes)
Death Match Classic (yes)</i>
by Ken Birdwell (Valve)
I never go on hearsay.
Not a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gunman Chronicals was a commercial product released by Valve, as with any of thier commercial mods/games, all the resources are free to use for HL development, even in other mods.
and yeah, its funny Valve doesnt mention GC, was it that bad?
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:gray'>remember PowerPlay?</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where does it state this? I can't see this being true, as i'm sure they are copyrighted. Just like you can't use NS textures for other half-life mods, etc, why would it be ok to use GunMans? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS Texture set is made up of many WADs that can all or mostly be found on The Wadfather Site. r25_whatever's are Relic25's sets who did Bast I think.. and many others. WADs are free to use so long you are not making profit from the use of the WADs or the WADs themselves and uou give credit to the 2d Artist(s) responsible for the WADs.
~ DarkATi
<span style='color:white'>This is NOT TRUE. All textures in the NS wad were created from scratch by NS's lead artist, Cory "SquealLikeAPig" Strader. Any textures in NS.wad that appear on sites like Wadfather or Shaderlab are accidental inclusions in the WAD, and are only there because Merkaba (creator of ns_hera) and relic25 (creator of ns_bast), the team's two "on-staff" mappers, used them in their maps in addition to Cory's textures.
The textures in NS.wad are NOT free for use outside the context of Natural Selection.
--coil</span>
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where does it say, with credability that you can use other peoples .wads for free? Credable links are important in these issues.
The NS textures that do not come from other wads are not freely usable without permission.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where does it say, with credability that you can use other peoples .wads for free? Credable links are important in these issues. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing with you I do see your point however I think it is unsaid that these WADs are covered by the GNU Public License or something like that, which basically states, what's yours is mine, what's mine is yours so longa s you say that it was mine first and you make no profit off of it. I don't have any links and though I enjoy friendly debates I have alot to do on Port Engine Room of the Nancy Project so this will be my last post in this thread. I don't know about the Gunman WADs they may be copyrighted but my guess is that even the GC guys got osme textures from The WadFather and if they did then they must allow others to use there textures as they themselves woudl be using someone elses "open-source" or free textures.
As for NS I am dead-on, you could use the NS Tex set in anything I belive because I don't think any of them were created specifically for NS and even if theyw ere I don't think Flayra or the artist(s) responsible would get there panties in a WAD (no pun intended) over it. (OK, acyually the pun was intended)
That's all I'm saying, I don't think anyone would sue him because he made a GC based map, or a map with the GC texture set. Don't know though it is a crazy world.
~ DarkATi
From the FAQ.
As for NS I am dead-on, you could use the NS Tex set in anything I belive because I don't think any of them were created specifically for NS and even if theyw ere I don't think Flayra or the artist(s) responsible would get there panties in a WAD (no pun intended) over it. (OK, acyually the pun was intended). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you can't use the NS texture set in anything. All of the textures in there were created specifically for NS, except those taken from the shaderlab texture set and the ones from the "r25" and Deep 6 wads. The rest are NS textures, and permission must be gained before using them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION
0. This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this General Public License.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you release something under the GPL, <i>the author includes a notice</i>! If the author of a WAD intended it to be under the GPL, it wouldn't be "unsaid". Putting a WAD under the GPL doesn't make sense anyway; the LGPL is more appropriate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for NS I am dead-on, you could use the NS Tex set in anything I belive because I don't think any of them were created specifically for NS and even if theyw ere I don't think Flayra or the artist(s) responsible would get there panties in a WAD (no pun intended) over it. (OK, acyually the pun was intended)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are dead-on what? Apparently you haven't *read* this site either. Everything in the paragraph above directly contradicts the text on the download page where NS is distributed (emphasis mine):
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Download NS Media Pack (17 megabytes)
This media pack can be freely used and modified for one purpose: promoting and supporting NS and the NS community. Use of these images doesn't require a disclaimer, but can only be used in association with NS. Other use of these images in any way is prohibited.
Under no circumstances can the images in the media pack, <i>or any content in NS or on the NS website, be used in any other project</i> or be presented as being created by anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to engage in "friendly debate", you should attempt to say things that aren't in direct contradiction to verifiable fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about the Gunman WADs they may be copyrighted but my guess is that even the GC guys got osme textures from The WadFather and if they did then they must allow others to use there textures as they themselves woudl be using someone elses "open-source" or free textures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have again reinforced my impression that you are ignorant of how IP actually works when you say that "open-source" items have to be free; it's not unheard of for an author to provide source for their shareware with the understanding that people who find it useful will still pay for the program.
I do believe that the Gunman WADs are under the same liscence as other Valve-adopted projects and are available for use, but it's not safe to assume that without verification in the form of a document distributed by the author.
That said, your self-justification of general WAD usage doesn't have any basis in fact. Even if you don't turn a profit from stolen (yes, intellectual property use without permission is theft) WADs, the use of someone else's artwork creates competition between two entities using the same art and potential economic damage to the original author--that's not my own opinion, that's how the law defines the issue--which is why non-profit projects that use *likenesses* of art (not even original artwork!) can be sued by companies like Fox.
An intellectual property lawyer would cringe at your naivete; a judge would laugh at you.
Not a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gunman Chronicals was a commercial product released by Valve, as with any of thier commercial mods/games, all the resources are free to use for HL development, even in other mods.
and yeah, its funny Valve doesnt mention GC, was it that bad?
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:gray'>remember PowerPlay?</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where does it state this? I can't see this being true, as i'm sure they are copyrighted. Just like you can't use NS textures for other half-life mods, etc, why would it be ok to use GunMans? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was another similar discussion and I couldnt tell you where I read it, but I am positive it was "official word" meaning, it was credible imo. I will look for some kinda link if you need it, but I am not naive or the type to jump the gun, especially when it comes to things like artists credit and digital rights. I make absolutely certian with that things of this nature that, the sources are credible and not hear say. Im not gullible...just lazy when it comes to keeping records <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can not honestly say this applies to GC, but I know it to be true for HL, TFC, CS and now DoD.
~ DarkATi
Just to reiterate what I edited into Dark ATI's post on the previous page, and to give an official response on this:
All textures in the NS wad were created from scratch by NS's lead artist, Cory "SquealLikeAPig" Strader. Any textures in NS.wad that appear on sites like Wadfather or Shaderlab are accidental inclusions in the WAD, and are only there because Merkaba (creator of ns_hera) and relic25 (creator of ns_bast), the team's two "on-staff" mappers, used them in their maps in addition to Cory's textures.
The textures in NS.wad are NOT free for use outside the context of Natural Selection.
However if one is unaware of, or ignorant to the verifiable fact that contradicts one, then in ones mind he or she is not "contradicting verifiable fact" because he or she is not aware of the verifiable fact. And one should generally say, "I don't know." However one [read: I] chose to respond anyway, which wasn't smart. Then you tore me down, and now I feel more lowly than an ant. Though to an ant he is not lowly, ignorance = me.
EDIT: Hey but at least now I know and I won't get sued or shunned by my fellow man for using a WAD out of ignorance so I thank you for setting me straight Cagey.
~ DarkATi
But you aren't "meaning" to contradict the verifiable fact even if in reality you are. In other words I wasn't in denial of the verifiable facts I just was not aware of them. But yes I agree I was contradicting sure.
~ DarkATi
Anyway, you could have small mountain passes as corridors of a type, and that would still give area for a) outside, b) onos friendly c) lerking fun.
Further more, it could take on a serious sam style design (but much, much smaller) of courtyard like locations with cool trees and water pools whatever else you can throw in.
Anyway, you could have small mountain passes as corridors of a type, and that would still give area for a) outside, b) onos friendly c) lerking fun.
Further more, it could take on a serious sam style design (but much, much smaller) of courtyard like locations with cool trees and water pools whatever else you can throw in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YAY another Serious Sam fan <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway OneSneakYmousE, I just shot an e-mail off to Valve cuz I cant find anything about it.
I don't know if any of you have played some of the numerous custom map packs for Quake and Quake 2, but the authors of some of these view the entire genre of FPS games as a big texture candy store. AFAIK their legal fees are not that much higher than anyone else's ...
Personally, I hope you can get a green light for this and have a blast making it; it was the blanket assertion that WADs are open domain that made me take exception.
Now regarding what was addressed to me directly:
<!--QuoteBegin--venomus+Aug 29 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (venomus @ Aug 29 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This may be flamebait, but I do think your preoccupation with copyright laws borders on the obsessive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a professional contract programmer who works with GPL, LPGL, Apache, and other freeware licenses on a regular basis. Understanding basic IP rights and the requirements of those agreements is a legal obligation for my work. As a member of adult society, I also happen to want to respect others' wishes.
DarkATI has explained that he didn't understand how things worked and has retracted his statements. I was fine with that and didn't bother replying until you posted. I'm not sure how a single post constitutes obsession--I don't normally think about IP law unless I'm looking at the legal requirements of a library or some sourcecode I'm considering for a project.
Perhaps you feel I'm "obsessed" because I actually consider the intent of the author before I possibly misuse their work?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you really expect lawyers to come crawling out of the woodwork just by someone releasing an unofficial custom map of non-commercial mod, which just happens to use textures from a 3 year old (and not incredibly successful) game?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I stated in my post above that Gunman WADs are probably OK but he should verify that before using them.
As a large company dealing exclusively in online content, I do expect Vivendi Universal to either employ in-house lawyers or retain a law firm dedicated exclusively to the protection of its intellectual property. If they felt their profits were threatened by a non-commercial map, lawyers wouldn't have to crawl from anywhere.
On a different note, it's unfortunate that being sued is apparently the only reason that would stop you from using somebody else's work without permission.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know if any of you have played some of the numerous custom map packs for Quake and Quake 2, but the authors of some of these view the entire genre of FPS games as a big texture candy store. AFAIK their legal fees are not that much higher than anyone else's ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems you equate legality and/or morality with avoiding punishment. Most shoplifters have average legal fees as well; do you advocate that? They see things as big candy stores, too.
I don't know if any of you have played some of the numerous custom map packs for Quake and Quake 2, but the authors of some of these view the entire genre of FPS games as a big texture candy store. AFAIK their legal fees are not that much higher than anyone else's ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the principle. I dont think anyone is preoccupied, especially if this is your hobby. You need to know about it and follow it. Besides, by that thinking, its OK to break the law if you know you wont get caught.