Stealth And Strength

RyoOhki · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Each side seems mixed up currently</div> From the beginning, my interpretation of NS has been that one side, the aliens, is supposed to be sneaky and stealthy, whilst the marines use overwhelming firepower and brute strength to achieve their goals. But with 2.0, these features seemed to have switched around. The marine victories I do see involve the marines being stealthy and sneaky, putting seiges in vents, sneaking a lone guy to a hive location and very slowly and quietly building a phase or tf. If the marines try and use brute force, at least in the early and middle sections of a game, my experiance is that they tend to get owned.

Now the aliens arn't sneaky any more: they're plain brute force. They go where they want, when they want and use their sheer power to achieve their goals. Not even skulks tremble in fear when alone.

Has anyone else experianced this switch-around in the themes of both sides?

PseudoKnight · August 2003

Sometimes... but mostly it's as you would expect: marines, brute force; aliens, sneaky/stealthy. Though, I wouldn't categorize them thus. There's more to each side than that.

DeepShadows · August 2003

Tis tactics of choice. Both are equally capable of both -

marines:

stealth: try to take out hives from under the aliens, build res nodes where aliens rarely travel

Force: Lock down nearby res areas, defend like a ****, get powerful and go kickass with heavies

Aliens:

Stealth: Sensory first, build at key locations to make matts of safety, holding marines back at key junctures. Surgically dismantling bases from under them

Force: Same as marines: lock down res, defend like a ****, get hives up fast, get big creatures fast, and own.

coil · August 2003

A better description of the marines than "force" is "tactics." That can be anything from a frontal assault to a ninja phasegate, but they have to play *smart* to win. Aliens are the evolutionarily superior species.

Kazyras · August 2003

Huh, so, not only are aliens more mobile and quicker to react (hive sight), but now they're also MEANT to be stronger in a straight out confrontation? Don't you see the inherent imbalance of that approach?

Kwil · August 2003

Of course there's an inherent imbalance. You could say it's imbalanced that marines have such powerful distance attacks. But that's the nature of NS.. two sides, each having their own strengths, being pitted against each other. To be honest, I think they've got the balance almost too fine at this point. The aliens are a little bit stronger in 2.01d (mostly due to light damage, I feel) but it seems the games I've played have mostly been decided by which team has an extra person or two.

I think it's good that aliens are the superior individuals. I want a marine on his own to be *scared* of encountering any alien life-form. At the same time, I want most of the aliens to be just as scared of encountering a group of marines. Unfortunately, I don't find this happening in games.

Why? I think it's because marines really don't have any stealth options so far as I can tell (note the clever way this is steered back on topic). They have distraction options, but that's about it. There's never that question in your mind of "Are you going to run into an alien?" They have SoF, they know where you are, if you get anywhere even semi-important, a half-competent alien team will rally on it. So it's not "Am I going to run into an alien" it's more a question of "When am I going to die?" For me, marines have become kind of a see-saw between fatalistic ("We who go forth to die..") and triumphant ("HA Siege Train coming through! Get on board or get run down!").

At the same time, the sheer power of the aliens against single marines OR groups also takes away from the feeling of being scared. Again, scent of fear ruins the feeling. Because you know where all the marines are, you know you won't be getting surprised. I'm starting to really come out in favor of scent of fear being changed to the old version, where you could only detect the wounded.

Perhaps if there was some way to further emphasize the power of a marine group, as opposed to a single marine. I was wondering if maybe adding a tiny amount of knockback to the LMG and HMG might be appropriate. On a single marine, it wouldn't be enough to really notice. But with multiple marines, it might be enough to seriously hamper the alien's movement.

RyoOhki · August 2003

Let me put it to you this way. The marines at the start of a game aggressivly move out, moving in a large group capping nodes along the way. Immediatly scouting forces of the aliens pick them up, and the aliens concentrate their attacks against this group. Now if one marine falls, it takes him much longer to rejoin his group than it does for an alien, who can rejoin the battle much faster. Skulks now don't explode at the sight of an lmg so they are much better at frontal assaults, which is exactly what they do. And despite the marines trying to use force, they find that if the aliens use force in response, the marines in early game end up coming out second best. Even worse, if the aliens know that the marines are setting up a major fortification they can strike there much faster with greater power than the marines can re-enforce it (exception is phase gates). I just find it strange that the side which was supposed to be frontal-assault-strength is forced to used stealthy tactics to win or at least get off to a good start, whilst the stealthy side is instead going straight in with brute strength.

Majin · August 2003

I would say that marines are more tactical, using force to implement their tactics. The aliens are the ultimate killers, adaptive and can evolve to adjust to the level of force you send at them (Skulk < Onos). Stealth and cunning play a large part of there attacking prowess.

Tactics and technoligy vs Biological perfection.
Like the BORG vs species 8472

Vigilante · August 2003

Evolutionarily superior? Where's the opposable thumbs, huh? Huh!?

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'>

Stinger · August 2003

::sentry:: The biggest thing that would balance off this game would be to return the Marine Turret damage to normal from the 2.01d "light" damage .. or possibly increase its effectiveness. As mentioned, Marines MUST move in teams. It takes considerably longer for a Marine to rejoin his/her teammates. If defending a base, lost teammates mean Marines will certainly loose that position to a concentrated 2-3 Alien assult simply because Marines cannot respond fast enough. I have been in over 30++ games. Tried 3 with the new 2.01d changes last night. I have only been in a Marine win twice .. and 1 of those was because 1/2 the aliens left the game. 5% win is terrible. Onos are VERY strong .. nearly impossible to kill .. especially when combined with other aliens. Marine Turrets MUST be ready and able to assist with defending Marine positions.

This is one of the best mods in concept/design I have ever played in spite of the terrible imbalances at this point. And I'm not talking about theoretical Marine vs. Alien power. I'm talking about the end results. Aliens are winning almost every game. You can say I'm whining/suck/can't shoot etc. But I don't have these issues in other games or mods. I'd really love to continue playing NS. It's fantastically well done. But the Marines need to win at least 25% of the time to make it reasonably fun. Losing 95% of the time sucks. I think most would agree with that. And I suppose I could join the winning aliens all the time .. but call me silly .. I like to be the underdog .. just not that under. It's like being an IT worker or tree hugger during the 'W' administration. ;-) Maybe that's what they mean by natural selection?

Corporal_Cyn · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I just find it strange that the side which was supposed to be frontal-assault-strength is forced to used stealthy tactics to win or at least get off to a good start, whilst the stealthy side is instead going straight in with brute strength. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Indeed. If marines are supposed to use stealth, tactics and evasion..

..why can't marines climb up into ventilation systems without a rocket strapped to their backs?

..what cloaking options does a marine have?

..where are their <b>silencers</b>?

..where are their flashbang and smoke grenades? Eh? Eh?

Some marines.. who pays their R&D department?

"We're gonna give you a smackload of guns to use on direct-line of sight targets, and a grenade launcher with 'nades you can exclusively -fire-, that costs your left arm before it's chewed off."

"What about a target hiding around a corner just as we land, sir?"

"I 'unno. Stick your neck out and look?"

coil · August 2003

Flayra never claimed the marines were about brute force and the aliens were about stealth.

Marines are teamwork, tactics and powerful ranged attacks.
Aliens are independence, maneuverability, and powerful melee attacks.

Stealth And Strength

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