Is The Jp Nerf Too Much?
eaglec
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
I was sent on a ninja mission last night with a jp/sg. It was high risk and doomed to likely failure but nearly ended far earlier than it should because of the jp nerf.
We had cargo, generator and miasma, were fighting over intimidation and docking wing, the rest of the map was alien and lamed. We have res but with onos devouring and redeeming giving out HA's was useless and were in a little bit of a stalemate. We pushed forward and then they took back, then pushed forward and then we took back. Anyway you get the picture.
So in what can only be described as desperation to end the game the comm gives be a jp/sg and sends me on a ninja mission into enemy territory. Miasma was lamed when I got there so I went through docking wing and marine start. Marine start was less well lamed and some nifty flying got me through unscathed. Hid in a vent as a couple of onos when past. Same with foreboding. I walked along South access as it was clear and I knew I'd need the fuel to get up the top of power silo as requested. I walk round the corner and take a couple of spikes before holding the jump key and flying straight forwards for the opposite corner.
Now this was the problem, the jp didn't have enough fuel for this, I had to land, wait for refuel whilst running about to avoid the spikes, get medspammed and then make a second attempt.
(btw we eventually won with a more traditional tactic but this episode highlighted the nerfs short commings)
OK so I got up there but for christ sake the jp his a top level piece of kit should it really be this lame? You cant even dodge onos that well as they can jump or wait for you to run out of fuel. Lets face it the only way to kill an onos effectively is with an HMG which makes the JP less manouevrable or a shotgun which needs to be used up close. So 3 shotguns or 1 jp'er with a shotgun?
Don't take this as 100% rant, I' just wondering if the JP shouldn't be:
a) cheaper or
b) easier to obtain or
c) more manouverable or
d) have more fuel
You cant even slow yourself sufficiently from a long fall any more without taking some damage and the getting stuck on the floor bug is even more pronounced.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
We had cargo, generator and miasma, were fighting over intimidation and docking wing, the rest of the map was alien and lamed. We have res but with onos devouring and redeeming giving out HA's was useless and were in a little bit of a stalemate. We pushed forward and then they took back, then pushed forward and then we took back. Anyway you get the picture.
So in what can only be described as desperation to end the game the comm gives be a jp/sg and sends me on a ninja mission into enemy territory. Miasma was lamed when I got there so I went through docking wing and marine start. Marine start was less well lamed and some nifty flying got me through unscathed. Hid in a vent as a couple of onos when past. Same with foreboding. I walked along South access as it was clear and I knew I'd need the fuel to get up the top of power silo as requested. I walk round the corner and take a couple of spikes before holding the jump key and flying straight forwards for the opposite corner.
Now this was the problem, the jp didn't have enough fuel for this, I had to land, wait for refuel whilst running about to avoid the spikes, get medspammed and then make a second attempt.
(btw we eventually won with a more traditional tactic but this episode highlighted the nerfs short commings)
OK so I got up there but for christ sake the jp his a top level piece of kit should it really be this lame? You cant even dodge onos that well as they can jump or wait for you to run out of fuel. Lets face it the only way to kill an onos effectively is with an HMG which makes the JP less manouevrable or a shotgun which needs to be used up close. So 3 shotguns or 1 jp'er with a shotgun?
Don't take this as 100% rant, I' just wondering if the JP shouldn't be:
a) cheaper or
b) easier to obtain or
c) more manouverable or
d) have more fuel
You cant even slow yourself sufficiently from a long fall any more without taking some damage and the getting stuck on the floor bug is even more pronounced.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Readjust your thinking.
And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision.
iirc falling damage was removed from JPers...
Don't try and hover for thirty five minutes and you'll be ok, just keep landing when it's safe to top up your fuel.
Readjust your thinking.
And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here. I have a respectable 85 fps, and the Jetpack is just fine for me...similar to what it was before.
Readjust your thinking.
And by the way, jetpacking marines don't take falling damage, ever. More's the pity, I think, but that was Flay's decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
h4x... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont know how u have managed it but for me the jp is nerfed
Its more a boostjump then a jetpack, k so i can still go very high but if i let the jump button go for one second i drop like a dead marine should.
In 1.04 u could fly for 5 minutes straight (probly even longer), now let me see u do that with the new jp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and dont forget to post the demo on the forums aye <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
In 1.04, anyone with a decent video card and 100 fps could fly around for eternity and own a hive within 4 minutes of the game.
I guess you guys are entirely right. The jp sucks now! You can't destroy hives with it anymore!
In fact, jps shouldn't cost 15 res, they should cost 33 res, like the lerk, and you should be able to fly through walls!
The jp's fine now. You can't fly with it, you can jump higher with it. Land every 5 seconds and you can own any skulk and chase fades/onos with it, but no, you <i>can't</i> own a hive on your own anymore. Too bad.
[Exaggeration] Maybe they were never intended to be able to fly from Sydney to New york in one go. [/Exaggeration]
<img src='http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/images/jethonda2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
MonkeyBonk siad it best
"You mean Jump Jets"
The jp is still a good scouting tool though, it is just slightly slower to us 99fps gods. And, as a scouting tool, 15 res is quite an investment, as no one has had time to re-master flying the 2.0 jp.
At any rate, it was much the same for me and my 30fps in 1.0x. And I was happy, dagnabbit. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
needs a tweek to get it half and half to what it was and what is is now.
zippy
This is, imo, the problem with the jetpack. This effect is lessened when you have less ammo, and a lighter gun, but if you want to get it to the point where it doesn't really affect you, you have to be carrying like a shotgun, 1 clip and no pistol, and with this you can't do anything efficient.
However, tbh, I've never seen a TEAM of jetpackers in 2.0. Everytime a marine gets a jetpack, they fly off by themselves (probobly because of their increased speeds, so why bother waiting around?). You cannot just give one guy a jetpack anymore, and expect him to go take down 3 hives all by himself. However, a <b>full team</b> of JP-shotgunners probobly could, just like a full team of <b>HA-shotgunners</b> could.
Maybe there is nothing wrong with jetpacks, just with the people wearing them. I'd like to give jetpacks a chance to show their potential (with a full team of them, rather than HA all the time), before they get de-nerfed too much.
"Jetpack-was-intended-as-a-fun-gimick-and-a-way-for-marines-to-strategically-access-vents-as-a-shortcut. It-was-not-supposed-to-be-an-onos-counter-and-certianly-not-a-way-to-bypass-OCs-kill-hives-or-fly-around-forever-invincibly-dodging-alien-attacks-killing-everything-in-sight-while-the-commander-drops-ammo-on-the-catwalks-overhead. If-you-were-able-to-do-this-in-1.04-it-was-a-bug-because-your-frame-rate-was-too-high-and-the-only-changes-to-JPs-in-2.0-is-that-this-bug/exploit-was-fixed-and-now-JP-behaves-as-if-all-players-have-a-medium/high-ping. This-is-not-a-nerf-like-the-server-side-patches-in-1.04-rather-this-is-Jetpacking-the-way-Flayra-originally-envisioned-it."
However, in any serious game of NS, where the marines are almost always in deep trouble from the start, both as a commander and marine I can never justify the cost of JP research and subsequently passing them out. The new OCs make quick work of anyone who's not a god with the JP already, and Onos usually just jump to smash your face in. If they were just a tad cheaper to research and make, it'd be worth it. As it stands, I'd rather take my chances with HA that's just a little more expensive, but much longer lasting.
Actually, it was.
Why do you think paralyse was replaced?
Every time I hand one out I think to myself "man for 5 more res that could be a HA". Every time I research them I think "35 res, I could have grabbed HA with that". A group of 5 marines decked out in HA is more powerful than a group of 5 marines decked out in jps. Combine then and it's another story but fundamentally should the jetpack really cost so much? Given that they have been greatly reduced in power why should they retain a high cost? I by no means advocate a return to 1.04 jetpacks o' doom but I do think that with a price decrease these devices could gain in use. Because as it stands there's no reason to go for jetpacks over HA, and you generally only have the res to go for either jps or HA. As a com you have to determine what gives the greater benefit for cost, and HA just ends up on top.
what fall damage?
jp is fine it just takes a bit of getting used to and allows more predictable movements to counter though they are still quite hard to stop.
I think the problem is that gravity goes down at 9.81 m/s/s and the jetpack seems to thrust at ~10 m/s/s so you have to rely completley on the inital impulse from your jump to actually go up at all. As soon as you let off the jump you seem to lose any and all vertical velocity, and you just don't have enough fuel to regain altitude.
I didn't know about the no fall damage thing though, that would have changed my tatic quite a bit.
My idea is this:
Make it so after both the amory and observatory is built, the proto lab can also be built.
In this protolab, there would still be two avalible techs: Jetpacks and Heavy Armor.
Jetpacks could be researched once lv. 1 weapons is researched from the arms lab.
Heavy Armor is the same, avalible once the adv. armory is done upgrading.
Right now, to make both HA and jets avalible at the same time is just... wrong to me. In the majority of the situations I can think of, jetpacks, as they stand right now, are fair less useful than HA. Against onos, in just about every map I can think of for NS, if a jetpacker were to fly above an onos' head, he would die, because gore has extreme range and the hallways are so low.
The jetpack's themsevles right now do not warrant them at the same level as HA. If it came sooner, there would be a much greater purpose to Jetpacks.
What is wrong with you people? Why do you always post that crap and ignore the very valid points that are continuously brought up that show how USELESS the new jetpack is?
The jetpacks WERE changed more than untying their dependency on frame rate. I have a friend who gets ~30-40 FPS who noticed that as well. The thrust was murdered. Unless your FPS was 4 or below, you should notice how you can no longer tap to hover or to slow down your fall. Also, you can no longer turn in the air at all. If you do, you'll lose almost all your velocity and you'll need to land to change direction. THIS SUCKS. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. A JP should ENHANCE your mobility, not LIMIT it. As a skulk, I find it EASIER to kill a jetpacker than a LA marine because of that. Are you gonna tell me that's the way it should be?
Even if 2.1 made jetpacks just like they were in 1.04 with a solid 100 FPS, they would hardly overpowered for several reasons:
1) Aimbotting OCs
2) Lerks available within the first 2 minutes of the game
3) Teching all the way up to protolab takes forever AND the JP themselves are ridiculously expensive. 5 res less than HA for something that's basically only good for going on ledges and into vents? And you'll most likely get killed by a leaping skulk or a jumping onos before accomplishing anything? RIP. OFF.
If JP are going to suck this much, they should allow the marine to jump normally (to dodge) so he would still be a regular LA marine, enhanced with the ability to get on ledges and vents. Right now, receiving a JP is a NERF to a LA marine's combat effectiveness, and not an improvement at all.