Marines Teamwork

Macguyvok · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">What problems do you have?</div> Let me start by saying that the point of this thread is simply to get a good idea about what makes teamwork on the marines team hard, if any. I've read a decent amount of stuff claiming that its difficult for marines to have the same teamwork aliens enjoy, and part of me agrees. I don't want to start a debate abotu if this is true, or whether aliens or Marines are overpowered, I just want to know what common problems people have working as a team on Marines. That's all.

So please refrain from commeneting on the ballance issue, that's soemthing to be decided later, after all the facts are in. Thanks.

With that said, I'm gunna throw my $.02. I feel that as a com, it is ver difficult to communicate with different squads, or individual marines. I use vice chat, but I've found that If I use voice chat to order a squad to do something, the squad breaks down as other marines swarm to that area to 'help'.

So, post you're teamwork stubling blocks! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Aaron · August 2003

I find it helps to have a concrete plan from the beginning (even if the plan is changed along the way), and to tell your marines at least 1 step in the future what you are going to do (e.g. "ok guys, we are going to head over to main aft drop the res, and then head to engine and fortify it). That way marines don't get bored and decide that since they have no immediate orders that they should just wander off. If you give them an indication of the plan, they may at least wander off in the right direction so that when you move your map to the next place, there might be some milling around. Along with this comes clear and concise orders e.g. "we are going to do X, Y, Z" v.s "uh...um... i guess...ok, let me drop a shotgun". If the marines perceive you are competent and doing something then they are usually much more inclined to following orders.

th0r0n · August 2003

There's a button you can hold down (I think it's crouch) whilst using voice comms will only talk to the marines you have selected, so why not try that with your squads so you don't get these "helpers"? If they don't know what another squad is doing they can't rush off and 'help' <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

CommunistWithAGun · August 2003

I always tell everyone what we will do 2 steps ahead of time so they can prepare. The other day I did an experiment. I was nice and kinda whimpy acting, but tough during rough times(Not yelling), and telling them it was OK. They listened to me flawlessly. The other day I was really mean off the start, callin them names and stuff. They didn't listen, we didn't win. Remember that attitude is just as important as your plan

Macguyvok · August 2003

Well, I didn't know about the crouch voice chat. I also agree that attitude is very important. However, I've noticed all these replys are suggestions to the one problem I listed. Do you guys have other issues? Things that you think hinder teamwork?

MMZ_Torak · August 2003

Biggest Stumbling Blocks For Marines:

1) Too much carry over from DM - Marines think they should be able to own when ramboing because it works in other games

2) Big Gun Syndrome - As was stated in an earlier thread, once a marine gets his hands on HA and his weapon of choice, they think they are invincible. I have seen good teams of stock marines go all to pieces once they got some gear.

3) Marines Often Only Coordinate When It's Too Late - I do not believe that the "end game stalemate" is entirely the fault of Turret Farms or Grenade Spam. A good portion of the blame has to fall on the marines being holed up in a corner and having no choice but to work together if they even want to leave their base. Try getting some marines to hang around the base, weld turrets, and pick up dropped equipment when they can freely rambo the map. You might get one if you are lucky.

4) "I need full ammo when I die" - Comm: Get through the Phase gate. NSPlayer: *hump hump hump* 'nuff said

I won't say all the problems are related to the player base, but a good majority are.

Enron · August 2003

I'm seeing more teams moving out of bases together, which is a good sign. However, as they move along in a 'group' they get spread out, even by a few yards. Thats enough for a skulk to get a few cheap kills in. When I comm, i want the rines to have on hand on their guns and the other on the marine next to them. Skulks don't stand a chance with that setup. Giving a wp and emphasizing to move together is a great start, but actually having the marines LITERALLY watch eachother's back is a way's off in most servers. An expansion on this would be actual formations (line/column/diamond) although the training of such marines would be tough to find.

Another flaw in teamwork I've noticed is the odd but incessant need for ALL marines to build a new structure. It just takes one, guys. The rest should be on the lookout for silenced skulks.

No-one wants the job of defending a base while their buddies are out in the front lines. It may be a boring job but somebody's gotta do it. Finding someone willing/competent can be tough.

Marines seem to be infatuated with taking out WoL by themselves. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! We have a tech tree designed specifically for that. If handled correctly those OC's are a waste of their time and resources. The aliens want you to spend your time/ammo dodging back and forth by a corner and spreading shots, meanwhile the gorge/def chambers heal all your damage. As soon as a rine spots one of these within 50 yards of our base he screams over the mic and instantly any orders/plans I had are out the window. Marines phase in from our suffering outpost to take out this new 'threat' Sure, that rally call by the hyperactive marine may bring together some teamwork, but you'd be much better off pressuring other res nodes/hives. 1 Marine following orders to build strategic siege cannons will do the trick.

I hate it when marines use the word 'here' That means nothing to me. Use 'squad 1' or give location. Better yet, use your comms. Those are much easier to find w/ spacebar.

I'll post more as i think of them

trob32 · August 2003

What I dont like about commanders i serve under is that they dont give good orders. They tell you to do something and forget about you.

Harry_S_Truman · August 2003

I believe NS is broken in the teamwork respect. It's an exponetially more difficult to win without teamwork as a marine as it is with an alien. Why is this? Especially when you consider that you rarely play with people on a regular basis, something that is needed to acquire teamwork.

Teamwork is NOT something that comes naturally, it has to be practiced, yet NS forces one side to use it or be annhilated.

Macguyvok · August 2003

Hmm.. I have an idea. What about we get a group together to make a Stragety guide... Kinda like a compliment to the manual.... Hrm..

HAMBone · August 2003

It is MUCH easier to have teamwork with marines than it is with aliens. Like I say in every post, on THE HAMPTONS 2.01b marines win from 50-80% of the time, depending on the map. It is much easier to win marines in a 10v10 then it is to win aliens. In scrims, aliens are still slightly better, but marines can still easily win.

EDIT : Once a concrete version is out that isnt about to get changed, maybe me and steamed can get together to write a pub strategy guide or something.

Doombringer · August 2003

Yeah, that's one thing that will always be a problem in NS: forced teamwork.

Personally, I love that aspect of the game. I'm a team player. I don't do solo deathmatch, it's always team deathmatch. Hell, usually it's not deathmatch at all, but something more like TFC or NS. If not that, then straight-out cooperative through the single-player campaign (which is sadly a missing feature in most games these days). But Joe Public (NSPlayer) doesn't see it that way. It's sad, really, that the only way to be labeled 'successful' is if you play to the LCD.

That's lowest-common-denominator, or Joe Public again.

I think we can thank Gamespy and wider media coverage overall for bringing all these new players into the mix. NS was a hit when it came out, but 2.0 is much bigger. More servers, players, and web banners screaming "Natural Selection 2.0! Get it!" Lets hope the new players learn what NS is, and fast.

Macguyvok · August 2003

Also, I have to agree that being a good com, is very difficult, and I don't really know why, except that it's pretty difficult to be watching all the differentthings going on at once... I'm not sure. I know that some of what's missing is in part the players, but I think that there has to be something that could be changed to make it easier for marines to suceed with good teamwork.

Crazy_Monkey · August 2003

And what's wrong with requiring it? It's what makes NS its own game. It's what makes me play NS like a crack addict. The game has a feature set to it unlike any other. Get over it, learn the game, or go back to a normal FPS.

But, BACK TO THE TOPIC.....

My biggest issue with comming is newbs....no wait..

My biggest issue with comming is I suck at....dangit, one more time...

I really think that alot of this will be ironed out once the CS fools leave, and the newbies learn the maps as well as that NS is NOT a regular FPS. Some underlying issues are the concept of "what I do, DOES matter." Alot of marine lovers keep spouting that "One marine can't make a difference." Well, look at Batman, sheesh! No, really. I've had mah homie, fa sheezy, holding one location for 20-30 seconds, well he died, but he totally disallowed the aliens (and the gorge he killed) to build there. Well, 2-3 seconds after his untimely death, my 3 man squad gets there and builds it up. Guess what? It was a hive. Cool eh? Yeah, one marine can make a difference.

Anyhow, I think NS whiners STILL need more time. If anything, to weed out the 12 year olds that don't understand "teamwork" and "wait".

Remember, in a problem involving people, look to those involved for the symptom, then derive the solution. A majority of all "bugs" in software testing is user incompetence.

Macguyvok · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazy_Monkey @ Aug 19 2003, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And what's wrong with requiring it? It's what makes NS its own game. It's what makes me play NS like a crack addict. The game has a feature set to it unlike any other. Get over it, learn the game, or go back to a normal FPS.

But, BACK TO THE TOPIC.....

My biggest issue with comming is newbs....no wait..

My biggest issue with comming is I suck at....dangit, one more time...

I really think that alot of this will be ironed out once the CS fools leave, and the newbies learn the maps as well as that NS is NOT a regular FPS. Some underlying issues are the concept of "what I do, DOES matter." Alot of marine lovers keep spouting that "One marine can't make a difference." Well, look at Batman, sheesh! No, really. I've had mah homie, fa sheezy, holding one location for 20-30 seconds, well he died, but he totally disallowed the aliens (and the gorge he killed) to build there. Well, 2-3 seconds after his untimely death, my 3 man squad gets there and builds it up. Guess what? It was a hive. Cool eh? Yeah, one marine can make a difference.

Anyhow, I think NS whiners STILL need more time. If anything, to weed out the 12 year olds that don't understand "teamwork" and "wait".

Remember, in a problem involving people, look to those involved for the symptom, then derive the solution. A majority of all "bugs" in software testing is user incompetence.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yes, I agree 110%.

ATI · August 2003

Its true, when I first played I was a CS hardcore player, tournaments, clans, everything. When I got to NS i immediately thought it was the same game as CS with an aliens spin. Well I abruptly lost that notion when I died a whole lot, and the commanders on my team constantly yelled at me. Now, I play NS most of the time because of the teamwork aspect CS is seriously missing. Thats just me though.

To the topic, i think a problem I have had, is that the marines themselves need marin style leadership. The chain of command should look like this...
Commander -> Squad leader -> Marines in squad

A fumbling block, I think, is created when the commander doesn't use the squad system to better manage teams, also I think its hard to command when you don't have those one or two marines who are willing to push a little harder to help the commander get his job done.

If there is one thing that commanders need to better command, its a squad leader willing to do the job right.

Xzilen · August 2003

Ugh, I still run into nubs who NEED their ammo before going through a phase *Sigh*

Enron · August 2003

I agree ATI. Perhaps this is a wet dream but I try to find 2-3 Marines who know the map and take orders well. I converse mainly with them and give them soldiers x,y,z. If one of the soldiers dies because he was stupid, I yell at his leader, not him. I think its much easier for rines to take orders from a guy they can see infront of them with a little voicecom icon giving them orders instead listening to some voice in the sky.

This chain of command can work backwards as well. I can listen/watch for familiar voices and get to them alot faster than trying to supply random marines with health and ammo. When the standard grunts learn that I drop ammo/health near their field comm, perhaps they'll be more entitled to sticking closer to him.

XShrike · August 2003

I agree with just about what eveyone is saying. I usually end up doing the jobs noone else is doing. On looking out when everyone is build and vise versha. The only thing I hate about coms is they give me one order to say build something then one of our other outpost gets attacks and he yells at me for not stopping and going to help. Another thing that happens a lot is the com tells me to go to a res node and forgets about me. I am then attacked by skulks i am able to kill about 5 before my ammo is out and die. When the com notices that I am gone he assumes that I wondered off and starts yelling at me.

Those are just a few things that happen often to me as a marine. I have tried comm once but because I did not respond fast enough for all the rambos I got voted out.

trob32 · August 2003

Sometimes , I wish their were server that are made specifically for training commanders. I mean, id love to try, but I really dont want to hear all the fussing at me if I do something wrong.

ATI · August 2003

I think Xshrike is bringing up a serious point about comms as a whole too. Marines don't like being forgotten about or being yelled at. Remember this is a game, and becuase of that, if you yell at your marines or forget about them, your marines will start to disobey you. I think something that immensely helps commanders on a consecutive basis is being nice as a commander. I think CommunistwithaGun pointed that out really well in his experiments, I've tried it, ask anyone, most of the time a little compassion, the occasional "oops, sorry I forgot about you, here have some stuff..." and the "Don't worry about this game, we'll get them in the next its okay if we lose guys we tried hard, and good work" will go a long way to making marines want to help you out later, especially in games that have frequenet community players.

And also, if you're new at comming, I suggest trying to comm and letting everyone know that you aren't that good yet. I'm not amazing, and I let people know that as a commander I am not that good. I tell everyone that I'd like to comm for a couple minutes to get things going, and then I pick someone else to command when I am done. This way I've helped the team, got some experience going, and also the short 5-10 minutes I commed won't leave a huge lasting impression on the overall game.

GoldenShadow · August 2003

you won't learn how to com if you don't play through whole games.

Vri · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 19 2003, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The other day I was really mean off the start, callin them names and stuff. They didn't listen, we didn't win. Remember that attitude is just as important as your plan </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
haha.. wish that always worked, me as a comm im usualy nice to everyone, and because of that some may think i dont have the aggression needed to comm so they wonder around the map getting killed, then you have an a**hole comm that disses his team the ENTIRE time, calls them ignorant even when their following orders and we beat the other team that wasnt noobified or anthing, the a-holes name is zippy or something

anyways, my point is the being nice doesnt always work and being mean doesnt always work either!, both work, for one being mean sometimes gets ppl working together and they listen because they think you really got a plan, on the other hand like i said being nice they might think your not tough enough for comm, my suggestion is be both! that'll probably work much better than being one or the other <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Catpoker · August 2003

most of the time i dont have problems with my marines,

its one of the two:

-they listen to me fully, shoot kinda good, defend res, and stay together and we win

-they dont listen at all, chat shoot at all, rambo off, and dont jump into the phase gate when i yell "JUMP IN THE PHASE GATE"

those are the teams i just hop out

Stoneburg · August 2003

The *only* teamwork issue I have with the Marines I usually COM is that they tend to move and cover eachother ineffectively. Walking in the middle of the hallway, instead of along the sides and moving around too much when defending an area, ending up blocking eachothers shots.

That's the *only* issue I have, guess I am spoiled <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Consider 4 Marines defending a room, all moving around trying to look at all the openings. Two skulks rush in and suddenly everyone is jumping around and getting in eachothers way. Usual outcome is one Marine dead, or none, but if it's 3 or 4 skulks, there's trouble.

Same position, but everyone is standing in a corner. 3-4 skulks is usually no problem, nobody gets in the others way, all bullets are counted, skulks have to go for one of the Marines to have a chance of getting a kill.

RaVe · August 2003

I'm not a commander but whenever I play in pubs I wished that auto team balancing wasn't there because marines don't do anything.

- Hump armory all day
- Whine and complain for JP/HA/Big guns
- Rambo off when the comm spams chat with 'STICK TOGETHER'
- Big gun attitude (see previous posts by others)
- Just fool around at critical moments

And the sad thing is that sometimes this also happen on the alien team,there's always at least 1 person slacking that deserves a good whooping.

Vri · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Aug 20 2003, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> - Just fool around at critical moments

And the sad thing is that sometimes this also happen on the alien team,there's always at least 1 person slacking that deserves a good whooping.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
ya seriously ppl, if you want to fool around go download some bots and play BY YOURSELF, where you can completely and totaly bore yourself to death and creat your own little hell instead of purposfully **** on other peoples server that want to play as a team

Necrosis · August 2003

Teamwork hindrances.

People who don't know the facts. This may include new players but by far its the old hands who refuse to update that cause the real problems. Clueless new people get killed. Clueless old hands get other people killed, and will always point out how wrong the comm is.

People who can't use their weapons. Boy o boy, I've an HMG, I'm going to hunt skulks! *dies*.

People who don't listen to the team.

Evo · August 2003

Although this may be quite out of line with what other people are saying, personally, I don't feel that the "CS noob" syndrome is something to focus on in regards to game development. After all, you can't force people <i>not</i> to be idiots. (And anyways; such an invention would have far more profound consequences than NS' small worries <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>).
So, in my opinion, one of the things in NS I beleive is a hinderance to teamwork is a lack of information.
"Structure is under attack". Ok - where? Is it on my minimap? Nope. Is it flung randomly amongst the two dozen dots on my screen? Yup! Anyone up for a little game of "Wheres Waldo?"
Or, the commander has forgotten about you, and you're wondering what you could possibly do to be useful. Can you check your minimap to see all your structures, any undefended points, and possibly discover a way to be useful <i>without</i> asking your comm? Can you even figure out his/her general plan without asking? Hellll no. The com pretty much needs to take every marine by the hand and tell them where they're needed. Its very rare that a player can tell what role needs to be filled simply by viewing the information presented to them.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that players need to be given more information automatically so that they can make intelligent decisions <i>by themselves</i>. Not all players that go wandering off are nubs. Some of them may be confused, or curious. Its all about a lack of info. And no - im not saying that players need to be more independant per se. I think, players need to be more <i>interconnected</i>. Given enough relevant data, I think the logistics side of the game will pretty much take care of itself, leaving the commander or dominant alien players to focus much more on the grand tactical scale, rather than being forced to babysit so much.

Just a thought <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Nefilim · August 2003

People who get distracted on the slightest things.

I tell everyone to go to a waypoint far from our heavily turreted base, like setting up a hive. This is a full team effort, as the aliens have set up many obstacles to overcome.

Half the team stays at base, getting spored by the lerk who would be totally harmless had the marines been at the waypoint/on their way to the waypoint. They spend all of their time watching the vent, getting one or two shots off when it shows their head, demanding that I spend all of our res to upgrade the armory and get a GL so they can blast it... instead of going to the WP. Tests have shown that a spore-lerk is totally harmless if no one is in the base.

So I have one guy actually at the waypoint, trying to build a turret factory as fast as he can while fending off the skulks that come at him. I'm elated when I see four of my marines heading to reinforce him - knowing that my res investment will be secure once they walk in and take over the place... but alas, they spotted an alien resource tower. That means they're going to huddle around it and knife it while a skulk comes and eats most of them.

Everyone starts respawning in, one by one, and try to head back to the waypoint... getting devoured by ambushing skulks as they travel alone instead of a group. My res investment is now gone, aliens have conquered another node and replaced the node they lost, and I'm back to the begining with no res and my entrances are now blocked off by invisible OCs. Thanks, team.

Stoneburg · August 2003

I just played on a random pub and... it was horrible. I had no idea things were this bad. People camping base, yelling for equip.. when they get it they are back 1 min later because they ran off and died... you get one or two people who follow waypoints and try to work for the team and you just feel SORRY for them because the amount of losers on the team will make sure you get screwed anyway... I am never leaving home again..

Marines Teamwork

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