2.0 Ballance Is Fine...
Macguyvok
Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...but the players might not be...</div> I've been playing, and watching 2.0 games for a little while now. I have to first say, my hat is off to the devs, they did a kick a** job making 2.0. I think the ballance is awesome, and the game is very polished. (in a Boondock Marine sort of Way, not an XP sort of way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Now, what do I see flooding these forums, and in the changelog of the beta patches? "Nerf aliens, via (fill in the blank)." Why? I've not see a single game that was won by aliens overpowering marines. All the games I've watched Marines lose, have been caused by thier own issues. Sure, it's a struggle for a pub marines team, since they don't always know each other, and don't play together all the time... but it's possible to win, especially since aliens have the same issues too! So, I feel that the "problems" with 2.0 isn't that aliens are too strong, it's that marines are too weak, on the teamwork side.
Marine losses to me are a symptom. Both sides have pub play issues, but marines have ones that are more appearant, since there can only be one comander. (Where as aliens have multi gorges.) If marines have a bad com, they get screwed. If marines have a bad group, they get screwed. This is simply because Marines have one leader, who they depend on. If the leader is bad, a good group won't save then, and if the group is bad, a good com has a hard time salvaging anything, but it is possible.
Why do we seem to have an influx of marine issues in 2.0, that weren't as problematic as 1.04? It's because aliens are EQUAL to marines... the game is ballanced, and now marine teams have to step up to the plate. What we need is some sort of training fr both coms and Marines. (Aliens could use some too) How do you get good at a game? you play it. How to you make sure you can start playing a game? You run through the tutorial/training.
I think the 2.0 learning curve for a normal marine is excellent. I don't think normal marines need much training, besides the basics the manual covers (although a NS "Hazard Course" would be VERY nice. Even making it something that you play before you can go online, who knows.) What I think needs work is com learning curve. It's difficult to learn all the little quirks of comming, and even harder to do so while Oni are pounding u're base, and marines are screaming profanities to you over the voice com.
I've got a suggestion that I know people will hate, and flame me for, but I ask you consider it. What if you had to pass a few "Tutorial Tests" to be able to com? You could do it by wonID, and even make it a server variable. Imagine if the only way a person could com, is if they had learned the basics, and knew to drop an IP (or 2), and then an armory.. and how to get HA and JP. To me, this would make it great for pub play, and just make everyone more informed. Want to learn to com? Take the test! Then, get out there and play!
Now, I know you're gunna ask what if there isn't anyone who's taken the test on the server. Well, then it could allow anyone to comm, like things work now. Also, this could go for gorging as well, although I don't know if it's nessicary. Aliens can win with bad gorge, Marines can't with a bad com.
Anyway, These are my thoughts, feel free to add your own.
Note: Please don't flame, or get this locked, I really think it's worth the discussion, as long as it's mature disscusion!
Now, what do I see flooding these forums, and in the changelog of the beta patches? "Nerf aliens, via (fill in the blank)." Why? I've not see a single game that was won by aliens overpowering marines. All the games I've watched Marines lose, have been caused by thier own issues. Sure, it's a struggle for a pub marines team, since they don't always know each other, and don't play together all the time... but it's possible to win, especially since aliens have the same issues too! So, I feel that the "problems" with 2.0 isn't that aliens are too strong, it's that marines are too weak, on the teamwork side.
Marine losses to me are a symptom. Both sides have pub play issues, but marines have ones that are more appearant, since there can only be one comander. (Where as aliens have multi gorges.) If marines have a bad com, they get screwed. If marines have a bad group, they get screwed. This is simply because Marines have one leader, who they depend on. If the leader is bad, a good group won't save then, and if the group is bad, a good com has a hard time salvaging anything, but it is possible.
Why do we seem to have an influx of marine issues in 2.0, that weren't as problematic as 1.04? It's because aliens are EQUAL to marines... the game is ballanced, and now marine teams have to step up to the plate. What we need is some sort of training fr both coms and Marines. (Aliens could use some too) How do you get good at a game? you play it. How to you make sure you can start playing a game? You run through the tutorial/training.
I think the 2.0 learning curve for a normal marine is excellent. I don't think normal marines need much training, besides the basics the manual covers (although a NS "Hazard Course" would be VERY nice. Even making it something that you play before you can go online, who knows.) What I think needs work is com learning curve. It's difficult to learn all the little quirks of comming, and even harder to do so while Oni are pounding u're base, and marines are screaming profanities to you over the voice com.
I've got a suggestion that I know people will hate, and flame me for, but I ask you consider it. What if you had to pass a few "Tutorial Tests" to be able to com? You could do it by wonID, and even make it a server variable. Imagine if the only way a person could com, is if they had learned the basics, and knew to drop an IP (or 2), and then an armory.. and how to get HA and JP. To me, this would make it great for pub play, and just make everyone more informed. Want to learn to com? Take the test! Then, get out there and play!
Now, I know you're gunna ask what if there isn't anyone who's taken the test on the server. Well, then it could allow anyone to comm, like things work now. Also, this could go for gorging as well, although I don't know if it's nessicary. Aliens can win with bad gorge, Marines can't with a bad com.
Anyway, These are my thoughts, feel free to add your own.
Note: Please don't flame, or get this locked, I really think it's worth the discussion, as long as it's mature disscusion!
Comments
What do you mean?
True. However, whenever I see 2 good teams go at it, I see just about equal win loss colums. I've yet to see anything that ALWAYS wins on either side. That sounds ballanced to me.
I've seen alot of comms who don't understand turret placement. (Why-o-why put 4 turrets on one side of the TF)
This problem is second only to getting comms. NOONE does it, add in a 'test' and they'll be even less.
As for balance, you are reffered to the CoFR server. Play there as marine for 3 rounds and say NS is balanced.
To summarize:
If you say that the players don't know how to use the marines, you are admitting that they ARE harder to use (same players, remember?), and that there IS an inbalance.
I don't know which games YOU were watching, but see <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=41193' target='_blank'>Flayra's opinion</a>.
True. However, whenever I see 2 good teams go at it, I see just about equal win loss colums. I've yet to see anything that ALWAYS wins on either side. That sounds ballanced to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your in a small minority arent you? I play over 20 servers, aliens win the vast majority of time.
2.0 isnt balanced, your and my opinion have nothing to do with it.Pure observation/emperical data--->Aliens win most of the time without that much effort.Not to say marines cant win larger % of games however as it stands 2.0 gives aliens the equivelant of sanctioned exploits.But I do agree marines have the potential but there is a learning curb for them that the aliens dont have to concern themselves with.
You may argue all you like, but until marines on your average public server start winning significantly more matches, the truth of the imbalance will remain painfully obvious.
Its nice to have a challenge by making it harder for marines but I think that it should be parameters voted on by the players(at the time in the server) as you would a singel player match(level of difficulty)Not dumped on them.
I have no doubt they will change this in the near future, they obviously are sadisitic or didnt do enough beta testing with non clan players.
Are we so inclined to prove some sort of intellectual dominance over other people ? Or is just that we just want to up our post counts ? As if that even mattered.
Please guys, these threads are just giving everyone headaches, let's take our heads out of the hole in the ground and realize that problems are being addressed.
...
But I do agree marines have the potential but there is a learning curb for them that the aliens dont have to concern themselves with.
You may argue all you like, but until marines on your average public server start winning significantly more matches, the truth of the imbalance will remain painfully obvious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beautiful! Thank you for that! I'm glad somebody agrees with me about the learning curve of the marines, its just horrendous, and that goes quadruple for the commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please guys, these threads are just giving everyone headaches, let's take our heads out of the hole in the ground and realize that problems are being addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->But we need somewhere to **** about this while we wait for the patches. Like I said, I can't even enjoy the game anymore, and I can't stand it.
A. Leave
B. Take it to IRC
There's absolutely no reason to clutter the boards. None, whatsoever.
Listen, this is not a place to vent your frustrations, or to kick and scream and whine. These threads are the reasons Flayra avoids the forums is because people who honestly, just won't shut up. People think that just because it's unbalanced, their life is ruined, like they've been scammed out of something. For an amazing free game, people who take such a negative attitude have no grounds for their complaints.
Every non-staff member or any member who does not run a server or a website have given absolutely <i>nothing</i> to NS. No time, no work. Offering only cynicism and complaints. All time is spent playing. In fact, people who help NS progress get to play less than everyone else, and yet people have the nerve to whine.
[edit] I don't want to exclude those who map or make models. Thanks for helping. But out of about 19500 members registered on these boards and many more who don't register, I doubt any more than 3-5% even contribute.
That may be why issues like this occur in the first place.
Flame on!
But after seeing most of these threads by people who play non-stop, I don't think many people have a clue to as what's going on as to balance issues. They know there's a problem, and they may just immeaditely blame the most obvious thing, when actually theres tons of underlying things that lead up to the problem.
Could fall into Quality over Quantity. You could play a million games, but if you're not observant and you don't think on an intellectual basis you'll find that you're just taking shots in the dark.
To summarize:
If you say that the players don't know how to use the marines, you are admitting that they ARE harder to use (same players, remember?), and that there IS an inbalance.
I don't know which games YOU were watching, but see <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=41193' target='_blank'>Flayra's opinion</a>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
couldnt have said it better my self. leaving me no reason to post but i did anyway <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont get most of the ppl that play NS, well on servers i play on some times there are periods where every one wants to join marines. Like at start everyone is sitting in the marine selection. its crazy, they all want to lose for some reason and they always do <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> . Of course there are times when no one touches marines like its the plague or somin.
I know, its silly. u would think the ppl going on that 2.0 is balanced, trying to get on the devs side would have seen that flayra has even said himself that the game is in fact inbalanced due to last minute changes or somin.
Player skill is almost always the deciding factor on pub games; the team most stacked with regulars or good players will usually win and the team with the most newbies or rambos or whatever will generally lose. You also have to take into account that the server you play in may have more experienced marines than aliens, or vice versa.. That's why it's so hard to make any true balance judgement on pub servers, ESPECIALLY so soon after release, and I imagine that's why Flayra has been using competetive play to measure balance.
My point was that marines seem to need something to boost them, and that it appears that coms need some form of training. I have to agree, aliens have the same issue. If aliens are winning more (I won't debate it, I haven't seen it, but I also havent been preforming emperical tests, I assume Flay has.) then yes, the game is unballanced, and aliens are more powerful. You can't deny the statisics.
That being said, the question is why are marines harder to play? I'm not sure. Why is it harder to have teamwork on the marine team?
I guess that's the question.
and now the same yobbos are back crying 'its the players'. Well guess what the aliens are using the same player pools.
Aliens are over powered and IMHO its simply due to the speed of them upgrading.
(lv3 cara, cloak or celerity skulks in 2 min ffs)
and gaining hives and RT (i prefer the old gorg model hands down.)
throw in aliens <span style='color:orange'>******</span> things up badly and STILL getting onos.
I win as rine comm about 20-30% of the time with same skill players on each team. Not balanced. Yet.
I like the rine setup and dont suggest it needs ne tweaking to any prices. Its the alien res income that needs a look in.
(some maps are also WAY to skulk friendly in a effort to bump detail all theyve done is create rine killing fields of skulk raping death)
also plz for the love of comm sanity move the scan button to the main screen!!!!
ALSO END GAME NEEDS A LOOKSEE
-Aliens can really struggle even with 3 hives and all the res bar one to take out the rines. A stubborn rine team can drag the game out for ages with gren spam etc which was impossible in 1.04.
Really.
WHO GIVES A <span style='color:orange'>****</span>ABOUT COMPETITIVE CLAN GAMES?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?!!!!
Percentage wise how many <span style='color:orange'>******</span>pub games are played compared to insignificant clan games?
%99.999???
Pub players need representing.
Basically that means lack of communication and less teamwork and more varied player skills need to be taken into account when balancing sides.
<span style='color:orange'>First off, competitive play is one of the ways to keep the pub community alive, just as keeping the pub community supported helps people shift into more competitive play. They're mutually helpful of each other.
Second, stop dodging the swear filter. It's there for a reason, and all you've done now is give me 2 more entries for it. </span>
Aliens are overpowered, marines can only win if they pull off something that the opposite team hasn't seen before...which is rather difficult since a lot of clans are playing a lot of games nowadays. A large majority of euro clans have played 40+ matches already, so seeing the strats and working out counters is a problem.
Yes this is adressed to you BelrickNZ.
NS 2.0 is not horribly imbalanced. It's more strategically oriented than 1.04, that's all. In 1.04, skill could triumph over strategy (a good alien, given enough time, could take down a marine base. Likewise, a good marine with a jetpack could quite easily take out a hive). For people who've always played NS with strategy in mind as well as trying to prod as much buttock as possible, 2.0 is a blessing. The depth of strategic options available is incredible. Commanding is an absolute joy, now. I think, so far, aliens are suffering most because they are having difficulty learning to play strategically (ie, as a co-ordinated team) than the marines are, because the marines only require the commander to have adapted.
In short: stop trying to play it like it's 1.04. Try playing it like it's first-person Warcraft 3 (commanders especially). Trust me on this one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines : Aliens
1 : 8
And the times i see marines win its only because they got some elite shooters nearly at the aimbot level.Not saying anyone cheats btw.
Marines RTs get taken down SOOOO easily. 1 gorg + 1 skulk = dead elect rt.1 gorg and 2 hives = no point in building turrets or elect rts. 1 onos with redempt = no point to play unless you can get 4 close range shotguns to fire off simultenous blasts which btw is impossible in pub play.