<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 15 2003, 03:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 15 2003, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> S first is the main cause for the few alien losses there are and when you win it's usually after a really boring and slow game since your aliens don't have the M upgrades (if you went M/S you're really asking for it). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Couldn't have put it better myself. Just today when playing we started with movemnet (cool np there), then marines got the third hive and the gorge dropped sens (on purpose), I almost cried. They then relocated to the last hive, and if you've ever had a team of onos, lerks, fades, tons of res, and still no dc's, you know our pain I was one of the two gorges, that was a painful game. It eventually ended in a "draw" (vote map change). M/S/D = BAD idea, imho.
Vote movement - for some reason, I find myself incredibly angry when I don't have movements by the second hive. I realize my view is picky and slanted, but movements just make me the very happiest when they're laid down.
Movement chamber is excellent. Totally silent skulks will almost always win in 1v1 situations. Every lifeform is a good option with movement. Sensory is good, but it has only 2 useful upgrades. Also cloaking can become useless if they have a smart commander. Defense must never be the third chamber, it is very important in the siege against marines--who usually try to camp at least one hive.
sometimes... i think getting S/D/M.... cuz you can have little healing outposts in the middle of corridors where marines won't find them cuz they're cloaked. with a well-placed cloaked OC/DC/SC farms, aliens can own unsuspecting marines. by the time the marines know that there's a alien farm there, they'll probably die. but the problem with taht is that now the marines know bout the stuff there, and can just siege/gl/ha it.
but the problem with getting sens in the beginning is that if they lockdown a hive, ur stuck with sens chambers... which are pretty useless against a well fortified base. (sens chamber usefulness also depends on map layout).
D = a must for hit and runs and OC outposts
M = adrenaline (gorge, lerk, fade) celerity (gorge, onos)
i dunno, i'm baffled, i want all 3 at the same time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(PS: no1 thinks pheromones is good? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> i think its pretty cool, but SoF is probably better)
/edit o yea, i've seen onos in 4 min.... it was freaky for the marines ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Evil Sonic Death Monkey+Aug 15 2003, 10:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Evil Sonic Death Monkey @ Aug 15 2003, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> . . . o yea, i've seen onos in 4 min.... it was freaky for the marines ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ditto the rines were clumed toghter and mostly dead when I attacked them two different times killed 5 then 4 more, I was an onos in the first 5 min (normally don't do this but we got dc's first and we had most of the nodes capped and a second hive going), that was cool! Quick game though. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensory owns early games, when marines lack multiple obs and MT, more than any other chamber. Yes, celerity skulks are tough little buggers to keep up with, and silence can be scary as hell; neither is quite as good as invisible skulks under the protection of a sensory munching any marines that try to leave their base.
Ideally with this early game advantage you'll keep the marines from locking down ANY hives, you'll starve them of res for upgrades, you'll get a nice haul of res from your skulk kills, and you'll have three hives and all the chambers in no time. This is when sensory shines. Sensory wins tend to be just utter domination from start to end.
If you start with sens, you should have three hives up pretty quickly, so just get movement and defense in whatever order you want.
That said:
Movement and defense chambers are absolutely essential to the late game. If you take sens and let the marines lock down any hives, you can pretty much kiss the game goodbye. This shouldn't happen with the advantage well-placed sensories provide (they're not going to lock down a hive if they can barely get out of their base), but it does if the marines are just flat out better players than the aliens or if the aliens aren't working together and exploiting their advantage to the utmost.
If you're worried about that, take movement first (or defense, but I can't see why you'd take D first) and make sure to make the two hives you <i>better</i> have (there's no excuse for letting marines lock down two hives except they owned you and should win) count as much as possible in the mid to late game.
Basically what it comes down to is that sensories give you a huge boost in the early to mid game while shrinking your margin for error. If you're confident in your ability to beat the marines anyway, go with sens and make them cry. If you're playing it safe get movement/defense and resign yourself to a more even battle. Neither is the <i>wrong</i> choice, just different ways of playing the same game. If you have a better team than your opponents, or you just play a better game, the outcome should be the same either way. That's the way it should be. Perfect balance.
I have to agree that going sensory first is committing your team to a 3 hive win which might not always happen. If you don't get 3 hives, your onos and fades will have to do without movement or defense upgrades which can be crippling, and ultimately game deciding.
Movement, for the simple fact that <b>nobody uses sensory properly! AAAARGH! SKORPY SMAAAAASH!</b>
*cough*
Let's be honest, here: the sensory upgrades suck skulk scrotum. The real strength of sensory is the cloaking effect, right? The problem is, you need to actually go out and drop them to use this effect. Very few people actually go out and drop sensory in key locations; they just drop one in the hive (big freaking deal. You really think that's going to stop the marines realising your hive's there?) and then you're stuck with terrible upgrades and no cloaking cover for te rest of the game. The few people that do go and drop sensory usually do a terrible job, putting them in very obvious places.
That, and the fact that I wub my movement upgrades so vewy much. Silent or celerity skulks, adrenalinised gorges, adren lerks, celerity or adren fades am teh pwn.
I played the game aliens twice in a row with pretty much the same team.
We got sensory first and the game was on, it was intense. Second time we got movement first and it was a much slower game in my opinion. People didn't rush to get the 3nd hive to get movement, because they alreay had it. And yes we are aware that MC and SC takes different playstyles and we know how to use them so...
The great thing is that in lost they can't get outa their base with a well places SC
Just to be different my favourite is Defence (on somemaps) and movement on others, sensory vs a good team is pretty useless cos they should hear ure skulks at the start and as soon as you start biting bubi cloaking.
Defence on a map like eclipse as it is small(ish) meaning a skulk/gorge can get to both hives before the marines, and only a very poor gorge with cara/regen cant kill one or two rines
Movement on a larger map for the speed. Really though it comes down to your clan tactics, the map, and the preferences of your teammates (this is in a pcw or scrim or watever you people call it)
Sensory either HAS to be the first chamber you drop, or the last. You either drop it first, and give your team time to use them to there full potential, or put it on the back-burner until the third hive.
If the gorge using it is at all intelligent, sensory can be unstoppable. Skulks who will always get a free bite before being seen. Gorges who can build right under the enemies noses. An entire level filled with invisible enemies. Anyone who says that isn't useful is a little mistaken... and that's without mentioning SoF. (An invisible skulk who can always get the first bite AND never gets surprised? Oh gorge, wiz this Zenszory tower, you are really spoling uz!)
When I gorge, you can pretty much run the length of the map without being seen. Mini bases CAN be destroyed easier, because you can happily position yourself in a perfect spot before revealing your presence... and depending on the comm, this can mean (for example) skulks being able to destroy a TF without being hit by the turrets. Or Gorges being able to walk to a guarded spot to Bile Bomb. (and then walking around the corner to heal up with their cloaked gorge friend, and rejuvenate energy at the movement chamber that was probably built once second hive was built.)
I guess the problem is, most Gorges don't gorge. They skulk until they have the res they need, THEN gorge to build something, then skulk again. And if you're only building certain things under special needs, how do you expect something like Sensory to be as useful as it can be? 3 sensories at a hive to get full SoF is a waste.
I would also dispute the statements about obs countering sensory... I can't remember ANY game I've been in where the comm has built obs in more than two places, and often, that was because of little marine me spending 3 minutes screaming for one where we had cloaked enemies. Maybe different for clans, but then, this poll is about pub play.
Here's how I look at it - from each chamber you get 2 things. The potental to get upgrades, and the bonus when it's nearby.
Defense chambers are all about staying alive. They heal you when you're near them. They let you have the option of more armor (even though it slows you down), healing constantly, or teleporting back to the hive if you're almost dead. The main purpose of getting this chamber is simple, staying alive. In the beginning though, staying alive isn't really all that important. Most skulks just go suicide into a group of marines, taking out a few then getting killed. Most marines don't expand enough to put any pressure on the gorges. And Lerks can just fly away. And when you do get Fades they can heal themselves with 2 hives.
Movement chambers are all about killing things. They boost you're energy when you're near them - which isn't that helpful because of how fast energy regens anyway, and you almost never see them near the frontlines. Also you can (could) use them to teleport to the hives. They let you have the option of being silent, faster, or having more energy. Silence is obviously for surprising people, though it's effectivness would vary depending on the enemy. Some people don't listen at all anyway, and the footstep sounds can be misleading. Faster can also be helpful, and it's also good for making gorges wadle around faster. Adren isn't that helpful in the early game as the only people who really need it are the sporing lerks.
Sensory chambers are all about information. Huh? well, just listen. When you're near a sensory chamber it cloaks you. This is quite widely known and I see more sensory chambers spread around the map than any other kind. Not to mention how the sens chamber also cloaks it's self so the marines might not even notice it when walking past it. This can be very helpful because it does both attacking and defence. It can help skulks be letting them move while cloaked for attacking. And it can help gorges by keeping them hidden if a scout/rembo marine walks in. So the Sens chamber is good for both attacking and defending and that's just it's area affect. The pheramones upgrade is pretty useless as it is now, so I'm not going to talk about it. That leaves the Sens chamber with only 2 upgrades. Scent of Fear is motion tracking for aliens. I, personally, think it's one of the best upgrades aliens can get. If you're a gorge, scent of fear will give you advanced warning of any marines coming in your direction. If you're a lerk, scent of fear will let you know where marines are waiting around a corner. Scent of Fear is a big help for attacking. The cloaking upgrade is somewhat less valuable now that sens chambers cloak you. However, sens chambers can't move, so the ability to cloak anywhere and fast is still useful.
I usually go gorge or lerk in early game, mostly because my computer's poor fps so I'm not that effective with skulks. I find Sensory first the most useful because Scent of Fear lets me pick my fights, or avoid them, by knowing where the marines are.
With Sensory Chambers you need about 10 in key positions before it is actually any use... Which is more or less impossible being the first chamber early on. At least with MC or DC you can take some of the most powerful attack upgrades with you, which gain in power as you get bigger aliens. Sensory is the same for a Skulk as it is for an Onos... At least with the other chambers you get stronger.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
I put "Depends on Team/Strat"
Sensory is good if you have a team that's actually dedicated to dropping sensory chambers all around the map, creating a "web". That's very good for ambushing marines and the like, and also for getting around the map unmolested. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm more likely to choose sensory if I'm on a team that I know will do this, and I know are reasonably tactical minded.
Defense I'll choose if the plan is to just save for higher evolutions and hit the marines. I personally think that the defense upgrades are better for this situation than movement. You have Regeneration and Redemption, which I think are incredibly useful, and adrenaline is the only movement upgrade that goes particularly well with higher evolutions at 1 hive. At two hives, however, movement's effectivenes increases greatly, for example a silence/cloaking upgrade combo is incredibly useful for just about any class.
Movement I'll choose if the plan is to just spread out and cover the map, getting resource nodes and whatnot. It's a pretty robust all rounder and offers something of use to every class at one hive, although I feel that, at one hive, Defense is more useful for Fade and Onos.
Well that's my take on the matter. Feel free to point out anything you feel doesn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Couldn't have put it better myself. Just today when playing we started with movemnet (cool np there), then marines got the third hive and the gorge dropped sens (on purpose), I almost cried. They then relocated to the last hive, and if you've ever had a team of onos, lerks, fades, tons of res, and still no dc's, you know our pain I was one of the two gorges, that was a painful game. It eventually ended in a "draw" (vote map change). M/S/D = BAD idea, imho.
--Jane <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
but the problem with getting sens in the beginning is that if they lockdown a hive, ur stuck with sens chambers... which are pretty useless against a well fortified base. (sens chamber usefulness also depends on map layout).
D = a must for hit and runs and OC outposts
M = adrenaline (gorge, lerk, fade)
celerity (gorge, onos)
i dunno, i'm baffled, i want all 3 at the same time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(PS: no1 thinks pheromones is good? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> i think its pretty cool, but SoF is probably better)
/edit o yea, i've seen onos in 4 min.... it was freaky for the marines ^^
ditto the rines were clumed toghter and mostly dead when I attacked them two different times killed 5 then 4 more, I was an onos in the first 5 min (normally don't do this but we got dc's first and we had most of the nodes capped and a second hive going), that was cool! Quick game though. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
--Jane <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensory owns early games, when marines lack multiple obs and MT, more than any other chamber. Yes, celerity skulks are tough little buggers to keep up with, and silence can be scary as hell; neither is quite as good as invisible skulks under the protection of a sensory munching any marines that try to leave their base.
Ideally with this early game advantage you'll keep the marines from locking down ANY hives, you'll starve them of res for upgrades, you'll get a nice haul of res from your skulk kills, and you'll have three hives and all the chambers in no time. This is when sensory shines. Sensory wins tend to be just utter domination from start to end.
If you start with sens, you should have three hives up pretty quickly, so just get movement and defense in whatever order you want.
That said:
Movement and defense chambers are absolutely essential to the late game. If you take sens and let the marines lock down any hives, you can pretty much kiss the game goodbye. This shouldn't happen with the advantage well-placed sensories provide (they're not going to lock down a hive if they can barely get out of their base), but it does if the marines are just flat out better players than the aliens or if the aliens aren't working together and exploiting their advantage to the utmost.
If you're worried about that, take movement first (or defense, but I can't see why you'd take D first) and make sure to make the two hives you <i>better</i> have (there's no excuse for letting marines lock down two hives except they owned you and should win) count as much as possible in the mid to late game.
Basically what it comes down to is that sensories give you a huge boost in the early to mid game while shrinking your margin for error. If you're confident in your ability to beat the marines anyway, go with sens and make them cry. If you're playing it safe get movement/defense and resign yourself to a more even battle. Neither is the <i>wrong</i> choice, just different ways of playing the same game. If you have a better team than your opponents, or you just play a better game, the outcome should be the same either way. That's the way it should be. Perfect balance.
*cough*
Let's be honest, here: the sensory upgrades suck skulk scrotum. The real strength of sensory is the cloaking effect, right? The problem is, you need to actually go out and drop them to use this effect. Very few people actually go out and drop sensory in key locations; they just drop one in the hive (big freaking deal. You really think that's going to stop the marines realising your hive's there?) and then you're stuck with terrible upgrades and no cloaking cover for te rest of the game. The few people that do go and drop sensory usually do a terrible job, putting them in very obvious places.
That, and the fact that I wub my movement upgrades so vewy much. Silent or celerity skulks, adrenalinised gorges, adren lerks, celerity or adren fades am teh pwn.
I played the game aliens twice in a row with pretty much the same team.
We got sensory first and the game was on, it was intense. Second time we got movement first and it was a much slower game in my opinion. People didn't rush to get the 3nd hive to get movement, because they alreay had it. And yes we are aware that MC and SC takes different playstyles and we know how to use them so...
The great thing is that in lost they can't get outa their base with a well places SC
IMO MC first, except for ns_lost
Alpha
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> ??
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Defence on a map like eclipse as it is small(ish) meaning a skulk/gorge can get to both hives before the marines, and only a very poor gorge with cara/regen cant kill one or two rines
Movement on a larger map for the speed. Really though it comes down to your clan tactics, the map, and the preferences of your teammates (this is in a pcw or scrim or watever you people call it)
Sensory either HAS to be the first chamber you drop, or the last. You either drop it first, and give your team time to use them to there full potential, or put it on the back-burner until the third hive.
If the gorge using it is at all intelligent, sensory can be unstoppable. Skulks who will always get a free bite before being seen. Gorges who can build right under the enemies noses. An entire level filled with invisible enemies. Anyone who says that isn't useful is a little mistaken... and that's without mentioning SoF. (An invisible skulk who can always get the first bite AND never gets surprised? Oh gorge, wiz this Zenszory tower, you are really spoling uz!)
When I gorge, you can pretty much run the length of the map without being seen. Mini bases CAN be destroyed easier, because you can happily position yourself in a perfect spot before revealing your presence... and depending on the comm, this can mean (for example) skulks being able to destroy a TF without being hit by the turrets. Or Gorges being able to walk to a guarded spot to Bile Bomb. (and then walking around the corner to heal up with their cloaked gorge friend, and rejuvenate energy at the movement chamber that was probably built once second hive was built.)
I guess the problem is, most Gorges don't gorge. They skulk until they have the res they need, THEN gorge to build something, then skulk again. And if you're only building certain things under special needs, how do you expect something like Sensory to be as useful as it can be? 3 sensories at a hive to get full SoF is a waste.
I would also dispute the statements about obs countering sensory... I can't remember ANY game I've been in where the comm has built obs in more than two places, and often, that was because of little marine me spending 3 minutes screaming for one where we had cloaked enemies. Maybe different for clans, but then, this poll is about pub play.
Defense chambers are all about staying alive. They heal you when you're near them. They let you have the option of more armor (even though it slows you down), healing constantly, or teleporting back to the hive if you're almost dead. The main purpose of getting this chamber is simple, staying alive. In the beginning though, staying alive isn't really all that important. Most skulks just go suicide into a group of marines, taking out a few then getting killed. Most marines don't expand enough to put any pressure on the gorges. And Lerks can just fly away. And when you do get Fades they can heal themselves with 2 hives.
Movement chambers are all about killing things. They boost you're energy when you're near them - which isn't that helpful because of how fast energy regens anyway, and you almost never see them near the frontlines. Also you can (could) use them to teleport to the hives. They let you have the option of being silent, faster, or having more energy. Silence is obviously for surprising people, though it's effectivness would vary depending on the enemy. Some people don't listen at all anyway, and the footstep sounds can be misleading. Faster can also be helpful, and it's also good for making gorges wadle around faster. Adren isn't that helpful in the early game as the only people who really need it are the sporing lerks.
Sensory chambers are all about information. Huh? well, just listen. When you're near a sensory chamber it cloaks you. This is quite widely known and I see more sensory chambers spread around the map than any other kind. Not to mention how the sens chamber also cloaks it's self so the marines might not even notice it when walking past it. This can be very helpful because it does both attacking and defence. It can help skulks be letting them move while cloaked for attacking. And it can help gorges by keeping them hidden if a scout/rembo marine walks in. So the Sens chamber is good for both attacking and defending and that's just it's area affect. The pheramones upgrade is pretty useless as it is now, so I'm not going to talk about it. That leaves the Sens chamber with only 2 upgrades. Scent of Fear is motion tracking for aliens. I, personally, think it's one of the best upgrades aliens can get. If you're a gorge, scent of fear will give you advanced warning of any marines coming in your direction. If you're a lerk, scent of fear will let you know where marines are waiting around a corner. Scent of Fear is a big help for attacking. The cloaking upgrade is somewhat less valuable now that sens chambers cloak you. However, sens chambers can't move, so the ability to cloak anywhere and fast is still useful.
I usually go gorge or lerk in early game, mostly because my computer's poor fps so I'm not that effective with skulks. I find Sensory first the most useful because Scent of Fear lets me pick my fights, or avoid them, by knowing where the marines are.
Sensory is good if you have a team that's actually dedicated to dropping sensory chambers all around the map, creating a "web". That's very good for ambushing marines and the like, and also for getting around the map unmolested. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm more likely to choose sensory if I'm on a team that I know will do this, and I know are reasonably tactical minded.
Defense I'll choose if the plan is to just save for higher evolutions and hit the marines. I personally think that the defense upgrades are better for this situation than movement. You have Regeneration and Redemption, which I think are incredibly useful, and adrenaline is the only movement upgrade that goes particularly well with higher evolutions at 1 hive. At two hives, however, movement's effectivenes increases greatly, for example a silence/cloaking upgrade combo is incredibly useful for just about any class.
Movement I'll choose if the plan is to just spread out and cover the map, getting resource nodes and whatnot. It's a pretty robust all rounder and offers something of use to every class at one hive, although I feel that, at one hive, Defense is more useful for Fade and Onos.
Well that's my take on the matter. Feel free to point out anything you feel doesn't work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensory Chamber for me.
Any other situation, which nearly always means marines have res points/hives, sensory is utterly useless as it requires you to assault.
By that time, you've already lost.
I go with any chamber first, but only sensory with a highly dynamic and very agressive team.
defense for capping nodes etc