Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 11 2003, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 11 2003, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's a hint on what NOT to do:
Run in and die one by one.
Where do you think the Marines get the res to replace their stuff from? Stupid skulks running in and dying. Yes, it IS hard to break a *well made* turretfarm with GL spam but not impossible. It just takes teamwork, resources and patience.
Oh, and it also takes people realising that redemption Onos sucks at finishing the game. In this cas,e a regen Onos will be much more valuable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with regen onos is you run the huge risk of having a bunch of clowns on your team who won't support you when you rush in thus leading to you get wasted and losing 100 res.
Yes, but unlike the redemption Onos you actually have a *chance* of accomplishing something. With the redemption Onos you probably won't die but you definetely won't get anything done either. So get regen and try limiting the clown factor.
We had 2 Onos and a Lerk attack Marine base, I was regen and the other Onos redemption. He got redeemed maybe 6 seconds into the attack, I was down to I think 140 health or so at one time but stayed in and killed the whole base, including the whole Marine team. The redemption Onos made it back in time to help finish the CC.
I think redemption Onos are good when it is an even game or somewhat early (ie: Marines don't have all upgrades and turretfarms), but if it's about finishing off, it won't do the job against an entrenched Marine team.
And if you die and lose 100 res, you should at this time have 9 vs 1 RT's so as long as you manage to kill 2 turrets you still made a "profit", meaning you can replace the Onos before they can replace the turrets.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Idiot's fault, not the mods. If they don't work together, they cant blame the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you fully understand :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umbra stops the turrets so that the onos can get past the room entrance and draw attention and GL fire. Stomp stops the GL spam, sometimes enough to get aliens in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed the fact the lerk is DEAD before it gets there. It is a nice idea in theory, but GL spam can happen CONTINUALLY with no let up.
Again, if you think that GL's need to ever reload then you haven't encountered a TF by GOOD TF'ers before.
Your arguments don't add up. Incidently, if you can stomp GL spammers=crap turret farm. I've never had an onos get within stomp range before. Also, if they are using stomp they aren't goring my turrets, so I'm quite happy as it just means my welders have nothing to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you've two onos leading the train (perhaps I should start calling onos plural oni, for clarification) then the grenade more often detonates on the Onos. I realise the hitbox is not perfect but when oni get into a room they tend to attract spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't think so, again, I meant you no offence with my 'you've not seen good TF'ers' because they are RARE. The ones that make 3 or 4 hour stalemates are hard to come by. That is a GOOD thing BTW. You've clearly NEVER EVER seen a professional turret farm that was set up from the beginning of the game to DELIBERATELY turret farm (or prepare for that inevitability).
Once again, they do not block grenades, and because a GL spammer never has to reload any grenades that score hits on approaching onos just adds to them getting killed sooner.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see, so just because I'm not complaining about a 30 minute uncoordinated push into base, that somehow means the players I face aren't good?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I won't call your marine players idiots, if you cease saying my alien players are idiots. Deal?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, I've not mentioned the idea of leaving the marines alone so that they push out and allow you to cut them off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I rarely see aliens enter a TF after about an hour. With on average 3 grenades an entrance/s, it can be awfully hard. So they wait it out or try desperate rushes (that normally fail miserably).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been on the marine side and seen grenade spam at work - continuous spam. And the onos still get into base, the strategy goes awol and suddenly there's fades and everything pouring in through the door.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, <b>you have not played good turret farmers</b>. I'm sorry to say, if you play GOOD turret abuse you WILL NOT get that far.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which frankly I've never seen. you need to get in the door to see a real turret farm, turret farms outside of base just get levelled because you've to go out TO them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When have I talked about turret farms outside of base? I've been talking about turret farms IN base by professionals. I'm talking about the kind of TF that is set up to hold aliens for hours (My record is over 4 hours!). Not a 5-6 turret affair, but about 30 turrets and seige. 2-3 TF's, 2-3 armouries, 4 IP's and god knows what else.
I think we're thinking of a 'different' turret farm. Perhaps I should make it clear I'm talking about an intelligent turret <b>abuser</b> and not a turret <b>farm</b> in that respect. I again, do not think you've seen a turret <b>abuser</b>. If you had, you'd know that onos die generally BEFORE they get it (have to get through 3-4 110 damage gren explosions), no lesser lifeform EVER gets into the base and the farm 'corners' entrances.
Ok, help me then by putting in one post what was split over three. I said you can get close to turrets, you said I've not seen professional idiots do that, and I said if they idiots then its not the mod's fault.
"You missed the fact the lerk is DEAD before it gets there"
No, because if its Umbraing (which it can do at range) then the Onos need only fear GLs. When the onii are in the base, they suck up the GL fire, which is when the lerk pumps in the spores. Spores kill quite effectively, and if you have a second lerk spamming the Scream or covering you in turn with umbra, then you CAN get a system going. This requires teamwork, something some alien players do not opt for. If the onii get in the base at speed (easier with celerity and Scream) they'll draw more gl fire, allowing the opportunity for follow up attacks in a very thin window. Again, coordination.
"Again, if you think that GL's need to ever reload then you haven't encountered a TF by GOOD TF'ers before"
I'd point out to you that I have not yet mentioned the word reload, since most players are aware of ammocamping. Please do not bring in unrelated issues. The onii draw the fire, the Lerks provide support from behind. It does significant chip damage. It will NOT break a base in one rush, and again I point out to you that if any one strategy or alien could break a base on its own with 100% success, then NS would be a dire game.
"I meant you no offence with my 'you've not seen good TF'ers' because they are RARE"
Thanks! I just get real touchy when the argument hovers (without flapping, hehe) near the "well you only win/lose because you/they suck" territory.
"You've clearly NEVER EVER seen a professional turret farm that was set up from the beginning of the game to DELIBERATELY turret farm (or prepare for that inevitability)."
This is very true, I honestly admit. However, IMHO camping up a turret farm and making no pretence at an attack is a very very odd way of playing a game.
"if you cease saying my alien players are idiots"
Nothing of the sort was implied, I assure you. IMHO many alien players on servers lack the impetus for coordination of attacks. I am open to the existence of servers where aliens do work together in endgame and are horribly rebuffed by farms.
I have to agree we're talking about two very different turret beasts. The turret farms I see allow you to at least get inside the base or on top of turrets if you bounce like a crack bunny. Then you die. Marines are on the armoury and spamming the GLs, but blatter the onii because they have a cloud of umbra near or around them. 1-3 skulks get in and xenocide, usually under celerity and carapace.
Yes, I can understand the different between turret abuse as a strategy, but IMHO it seems designed just to irritate the hell out of alien players, rather than win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, help me then by putting in one post what was split over three. I said you can get close to turrets, you said I've not seen professional idiots do that, and I said if they idiots then its not the mod's fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your point, but the way turrets are set up allows this. Grenade exploit also allows this.
Remove these and end games are decisive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because if its Umbraing (which it can do at range) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a narrow corridor leading to some marine spawns amongst the 3-4 grenades a second in there? I think you are being highly delusional. Again, another sign you haven't played against a professional idiot. You aren't going to umbra because the turret farm is back, in order to get to a umbra position you have to get where the GL's are.
I shouldn't have to explain this :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the onii are in the base, they suck up the GL fire,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First the plural is onos I think. It's really retarded, like how you say there is one moose over there, or a bunch of moose (as opposed to mooses or anything). Second they don't against good turret farmers because the onos HP/2 before getting in anyway and then dead to the shotguns/turrets waiting for them. Possibly some HMG/welders if I could be bothered too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> which is when the lerk pumps in the spores. Spores kill quite effectively,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, give me a bit of credit, I'm not stupid enough not to hand out HA. It isn't like my marines are doing anything (well, they are holding down the attack button lol).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd point out to you that I have not yet mentioned the word reload, since most players are aware of ammocamping. Please do not bring in unrelated issues. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohhh my arguments strongest points are now 'unrelated issues'. So it is just a strange observation that I've noticed ALL marine TF teams that are successful know how to perma GL spam? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Possibly the problem at its core!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The onii draw the fire, the Lerks provide support from behind<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your ideal situation it does, in practice it doesn't. You are already disregarding perma grenade spamming, which is something I've said is central to these TF camping sprees! Honestly, many people DO know about gren spamming now and I've also seen people being told how to do it. It isn't like it is brain science or is hard to do, and it is easy for even a n00b to watch and understand. They should really fix it too.
Also, again, Onos against 20-30 turrets=dead onos. The grenade launchers never have to alter targets, because the lerk will be dead anyway before it gets to umbra. You CONTINUALLY assume that A: Aliens have room and B: the marine commander doesn't have the llamah skills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks! I just get real touchy when the argument hovers (without flapping, hehe) near the "well you only win/lose because you/they suck" territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never meant to imply that, but I did mean to imply you might not have seen a true llamah, which I don't think you have. This is not to imply offence to you, but until you've recieved the spanking that is handed out by these, you cannot truely appreciate it. I've been on both sides BTW.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is very true, I honestly admit. However, IMHO camping up a turret farm and making no pretence at an attack is a very very odd way of playing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believe it or not, that is because it can win. It's actually becomming a valid strategy, and I HONESTLY hope it doesn't continue.
However, it doesn't mean you camp base all game, you can still play very normally and turret farm. The difference between a turret farm that will last all game is the inital placements. If the comm keeps it in mind for later, the aliens once they find themselves winning will discover the marines disappearing. Eventually they'll go to the marine spawn to find the farm...and be massacred repeatedly for hours.
I do admit, while a llamah strategy, it does take a lot of coordination to pull off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing of the sort was implied, I assure you. IMHO many alien players on servers lack the impetus for coordination of attacks. I am open to the existence of servers where aliens do work together in endgame and are horribly rebuffed by farms. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah. I've seen aliens break farms easily as well, but those are farm farm, not llamah farm. An eariler screenshot in this thread (page 1?) has the beginning of a llamah farm for example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have to agree we're talking about two very different turret beasts. The turret farms I see allow you to at least get inside the base or on top of turrets if you bounce like a crack bunny. Then you die. Marines are on the armoury and spamming the GLs, but blatter the onii because they have a cloud of umbra near or around them. 1-3 skulks get in and xenocide, usually under celerity and carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I've rarely seen that because the GL's slaughter every lower alien lifeform well before it gets in. Onos are massacred by shotgun HA and xenocide is just welded back up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I can understand the different between turret abuse as a strategy, but IMHO it seems designed just to irritate the hell out of alien players, rather than win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly! Hence the difference between a turret llamah and a turret farmer. The real problem is, the step from turret farmer to turret llamah, is knowing one exploit and a REALLY good understanding of how the aliens abilities work. They win surprisingly often.
I learnt to llamah as an educational experience. The real problem though, is it's actually pretty fun for the marines <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Hate admitting that, but when that onos who continually ate/redeemed everyone is dying all the time and is getting sodded off, there is almost justice in a way. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines cramped in one single location, should not <i>even</i> be able to hold off unorganized attacks, period. When <i>good</i> turret farming happens, all the Onos might as well just hop in a giant meat grinder, as they enter though hallways in a single file line. A group of Lerks, skulks and, Gorges will all die in 2-3 grenade explosions. The Fades will get by the Grenades, but the turrets will finnish them off. Even with all the rest of the resource nodes, a player must still wait to be Onos again. Can the Aliens do the same type of thing to the Marines? No. Marines got the siege cannon, and Aliens have a 'turret limit'.
A professional Turret farmer can find an exploitable location on the map to make his/her last stand. But what's to stop them if they aren't making a last stand? What if the turret farmer has 3+ resources nodes, phasegates, sieges, and more than one TF? Even with the other 6 nodes, the Aliens won't have the resources to pull off a grand attack. The Marines have found a new way to pull off another almost unstoppable attack... however, it is worse than the Jetpack/HMG attack was, since it takes forever for Marines to win with the siege crawl.
In 3 games yesterday, Aliens with a <b>resource advantage</b> and <b>some teamwork</b>, lost against turret farmers with <b>no teamwork</b> and a <b>resource disadvantage</b>. All the games lasted 2-3 hours. This wasn't what I thought the 2.0 vision was supposed to be...
Bilebomb was given a stronger muzzle velocity, and bounced like a water balloon until it exploded a fixed time after being shot.
Gorges could assault farms from around corners, (although not other aliens) and marines would be forced to take a more agressive stance, assuming that just bouncing grenades isn't effective.
Perhaps to scale this better with games, the 'bouncing' property of bilebomb could only be effected by having three hives.
I suppose the problem will be corrected in later updates, but in the mean time I suppose the best thing to do is go to servers where turret abuse is not a problem. It would seem I have had a run of luck on this, as despite seeing people abuse the GL reload I have NOT seen diabolically heavy turret abuse.
Generally on pub servers at this moment in time, this "strategy" is rare.
Comments
Run in and die one by one.
Where do you think the Marines get the res to replace their stuff from? Stupid skulks running in and dying. Yes, it IS hard to break a *well made* turretfarm with GL spam but not impossible. It just takes teamwork, resources and patience.
Oh, and it also takes people realising that redemption Onos sucks at finishing the game. In this cas,e a regen Onos will be much more valuable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with regen onos is you run the huge risk of having a bunch of clowns on your team who won't support you when you rush in thus leading to you get wasted and losing 100 res.
We had 2 Onos and a Lerk attack Marine base, I was regen and the other Onos redemption. He got redeemed maybe 6 seconds into the attack, I was down to I think 140 health or so at one time but stayed in and killed the whole base, including the whole Marine team. The redemption Onos made it back in time to help finish the CC.
I think redemption Onos are good when it is an even game or somewhat early (ie: Marines don't have all upgrades and turretfarms), but if it's about finishing off, it won't do the job against an entrenched Marine team.
And if you die and lose 100 res, you should at this time have 9 vs 1 RT's so as long as you manage to kill 2 turrets you still made a "profit", meaning you can replace the Onos before they can replace the turrets.
I don't think you fully understand :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umbra stops the turrets so that the onos can get past the room entrance and draw attention and GL fire. Stomp stops the GL spam, sometimes enough to get aliens in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed the fact the lerk is DEAD before it gets there. It is a nice idea in theory, but GL spam can happen CONTINUALLY with no let up.
Again, if you think that GL's need to ever reload then you haven't encountered a TF by GOOD TF'ers before.
Your arguments don't add up. Incidently, if you can stomp GL spammers=crap turret farm. I've never had an onos get within stomp range before. Also, if they are using stomp they aren't goring my turrets, so I'm quite happy as it just means my welders have nothing to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you've two onos leading the train (perhaps I should start calling onos plural oni, for clarification) then the grenade more often detonates on the Onos. I realise the hitbox is not perfect but when oni get into a room they tend to attract spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't think so, again, I meant you no offence with my 'you've not seen good TF'ers' because they are RARE. The ones that make 3 or 4 hour stalemates are hard to come by. That is a GOOD thing BTW. You've clearly NEVER EVER seen a professional turret farm that was set up from the beginning of the game to DELIBERATELY turret farm (or prepare for that inevitability).
Once again, they do not block grenades, and because a GL spammer never has to reload any grenades that score hits on approaching onos just adds to them getting killed sooner.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see, so just because I'm not complaining about a 30 minute uncoordinated push into base, that somehow means the players I face aren't good?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I won't call your marine players idiots, if you cease saying my alien players are idiots. Deal?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, I've not mentioned the idea of leaving the marines alone so that they push out and allow you to cut them off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I rarely see aliens enter a TF after about an hour. With on average 3 grenades an entrance/s, it can be awfully hard. So they wait it out or try desperate rushes (that normally fail miserably).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been on the marine side and seen grenade spam at work - continuous spam. And the onos still get into base, the strategy goes awol and suddenly there's fades and everything pouring in through the door.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, <b>you have not played good turret farmers</b>. I'm sorry to say, if you play GOOD turret abuse you WILL NOT get that far.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which frankly I've never seen. you need to get in the door to see a real turret farm, turret farms outside of base just get levelled because you've to go out TO them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When have I talked about turret farms outside of base? I've been talking about turret farms IN base by professionals. I'm talking about the kind of TF that is set up to hold aliens for hours (My record is over 4 hours!). Not a 5-6 turret affair, but about 30 turrets and seige. 2-3 TF's, 2-3 armouries, 4 IP's and god knows what else.
I think we're thinking of a 'different' turret farm. Perhaps I should make it clear I'm talking about an intelligent turret <b>abuser</b> and not a turret <b>farm</b> in that respect. I again, do not think you've seen a turret <b>abuser</b>. If you had, you'd know that onos die generally BEFORE they get it (have to get through 3-4 110 damage gren explosions), no lesser lifeform EVER gets into the base and the farm 'corners' entrances.
Ok, help me then by putting in one post what was split over three. I said you can get close to turrets, you said I've not seen professional idiots do that, and I said if they idiots then its not the mod's fault.
"You missed the fact the lerk is DEAD before it gets there"
No, because if its Umbraing (which it can do at range) then the Onos need only fear GLs. When the onii are in the base, they suck up the GL fire, which is when the lerk pumps in the spores. Spores kill quite effectively, and if you have a second lerk spamming the Scream or covering you in turn with umbra, then you CAN get a system going. This requires teamwork, something some alien players do not opt for. If the onii get in the base at speed (easier with celerity and Scream) they'll draw more gl fire, allowing the opportunity for follow up attacks in a very thin window. Again, coordination.
"Again, if you think that GL's need to ever reload then you haven't encountered a TF by GOOD TF'ers before"
I'd point out to you that I have not yet mentioned the word reload, since most players are aware of ammocamping. Please do not bring in unrelated issues. The onii draw the fire, the Lerks provide support from behind. It does significant chip damage. It will NOT break a base in one rush, and again I point out to you that if any one strategy or alien could break a base on its own with 100% success, then NS would be a dire game.
"I meant you no offence with my 'you've not seen good TF'ers' because they are RARE"
Thanks! I just get real touchy when the argument hovers (without flapping, hehe) near the "well you only win/lose because you/they suck" territory.
"You've clearly NEVER EVER seen a professional turret farm that was set up from the beginning of the game to DELIBERATELY turret farm (or prepare for that inevitability)."
This is very true, I honestly admit. However, IMHO camping up a turret farm and making no pretence at an attack is a very very odd way of playing a game.
"if you cease saying my alien players are idiots"
Nothing of the sort was implied, I assure you. IMHO many alien players on servers lack the impetus for coordination of attacks. I am open to the existence of servers where aliens do work together in endgame and are horribly rebuffed by farms.
I have to agree we're talking about two very different turret beasts. The turret farms I see allow you to at least get inside the base or on top of turrets if you bounce like a crack bunny. Then you die. Marines are on the armoury and spamming the GLs, but blatter the onii because they have a cloud of umbra near or around them. 1-3 skulks get in and xenocide, usually under celerity and carapace.
Yes, I can understand the different between turret abuse as a strategy, but IMHO it seems designed just to irritate the hell out of alien players, rather than win.
*scratches head*
I see your point, but the way turrets are set up allows this. Grenade exploit also allows this.
Remove these and end games are decisive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because if its Umbraing (which it can do at range) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a narrow corridor leading to some marine spawns amongst the 3-4 grenades a second in there? I think you are being highly delusional. Again, another sign you haven't played against a professional idiot. You aren't going to umbra because the turret farm is back, in order to get to a umbra position you have to get where the GL's are.
I shouldn't have to explain this :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the onii are in the base, they suck up the GL fire,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First the plural is onos I think. It's really retarded, like how you say there is one moose over there, or a bunch of moose (as opposed to mooses or anything). Second they don't against good turret farmers because the onos HP/2 before getting in anyway and then dead to the shotguns/turrets waiting for them. Possibly some HMG/welders if I could be bothered too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
which is when the lerk pumps in the spores. Spores kill quite effectively,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, give me a bit of credit, I'm not stupid enough not to hand out HA. It isn't like my marines are doing anything (well, they are holding down the attack button lol).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd point out to you that I have not yet mentioned the word reload, since most players are aware of ammocamping. Please do not bring in unrelated issues. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohhh my arguments strongest points are now 'unrelated issues'. So it is just a strange observation that I've noticed ALL marine TF teams that are successful know how to perma GL spam? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Possibly the problem at its core!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The onii draw the fire, the Lerks provide support from behind<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your ideal situation it does, in practice it doesn't. You are already disregarding perma grenade spamming, which is something I've said is central to these TF camping sprees! Honestly, many people DO know about gren spamming now and I've also seen people being told how to do it. It isn't like it is brain science or is hard to do, and it is easy for even a n00b to watch and understand. They should really fix it too.
Also, again, Onos against 20-30 turrets=dead onos. The grenade launchers never have to alter targets, because the lerk will be dead anyway before it gets to umbra. You CONTINUALLY assume that A: Aliens have room and B: the marine commander doesn't have the llamah skills.
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Thanks! I just get real touchy when the argument hovers (without flapping, hehe) near the "well you only win/lose because you/they suck" territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never meant to imply that, but I did mean to imply you might not have seen a true llamah, which I don't think you have. This is not to imply offence to you, but until you've recieved the spanking that is handed out by these, you cannot truely appreciate it. I've been on both sides BTW.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is very true, I honestly admit. However, IMHO camping up a turret farm and making no pretence at an attack is a very very odd way of playing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believe it or not, that is because it can win. It's actually becomming a valid strategy, and I HONESTLY hope it doesn't continue.
However, it doesn't mean you camp base all game, you can still play very normally and turret farm. The difference between a turret farm that will last all game is the inital placements. If the comm keeps it in mind for later, the aliens once they find themselves winning will discover the marines disappearing. Eventually they'll go to the marine spawn to find the farm...and be massacred repeatedly for hours.
I do admit, while a llamah strategy, it does take a lot of coordination to pull off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing of the sort was implied, I assure you. IMHO many alien players on servers lack the impetus for coordination of attacks. I am open to the existence of servers where aliens do work together in endgame and are horribly rebuffed by farms.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah. I've seen aliens break farms easily as well, but those are farm farm, not llamah farm. An eariler screenshot in this thread (page 1?) has the beginning of a llamah farm for example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have to agree we're talking about two very different turret beasts. The turret farms I see allow you to at least get inside the base or on top of turrets if you bounce like a crack bunny. Then you die. Marines are on the armoury and spamming the GLs, but blatter the onii because they have a cloud of umbra near or around them. 1-3 skulks get in and xenocide, usually under celerity and carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I've rarely seen that because the GL's slaughter every lower alien lifeform well before it gets in. Onos are massacred by shotgun HA and xenocide is just welded back up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I can understand the different between turret abuse as a strategy, but IMHO it seems designed just to irritate the hell out of alien players, rather than win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly! Hence the difference between a turret llamah and a turret farmer. The real problem is, the step from turret farmer to turret llamah, is knowing one exploit and a REALLY good understanding of how the aliens abilities work. They win surprisingly often.
I learnt to llamah as an educational experience. The real problem though, is it's actually pretty fun for the marines <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Hate admitting that, but when that onos who continually ate/redeemed everyone is dying all the time and is getting sodded off, there is almost justice in a way. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
A professional Turret farmer can find an exploitable location on the map to make his/her last stand. But what's to stop them if they aren't making a last stand? What if the turret farmer has 3+ resources nodes, phasegates, sieges, and more than one TF? Even with the other 6 nodes, the Aliens won't have the resources to pull off a grand attack. The Marines have found a new way to pull off another almost unstoppable attack... however, it is worse than the Jetpack/HMG attack was, since it takes forever for Marines to win with the siege crawl.
In 3 games yesterday, Aliens with a <b>resource advantage</b> and <b>some teamwork</b>, lost against turret farmers with <b>no teamwork</b> and a <b>resource disadvantage</b>. All the games lasted 2-3 hours. This wasn't what I thought the 2.0 vision was supposed to be...
Bilebomb was given a stronger muzzle velocity, and bounced like a water balloon until it exploded a fixed time after being shot.
Gorges could assault farms from around corners, (although not other aliens) and marines would be forced to take a more agressive stance, assuming that just bouncing grenades isn't effective.
Perhaps to scale this better with games, the 'bouncing' property of bilebomb could only be effected by having three hives.
Generally on pub servers at this moment in time, this "strategy" is rare.