A Proposition To Stop The Whining..
Sarisel
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">..and adapt, as was said before</div> Over the past week, I've realized that there is a steep learning curve from NS 1.04 to 2.0. No longer are the marines the ideal team to join as a newbie. Right now, as a result, there is a lot of talk about inbalance and the aliens having it too easy, etc. etc.
Personally, I think that the marines had it too easy in 1.04. The strategies were usually simple and could often be executed by just 2-3 marines (sometimes even one). Now in 2.0 comes *gasp* the need for teamwork, and lots of it. Along with the need for teamwork comes the need for flexibility when it comes to strategical thought. The flexibility is required from both the commander and marines. There is no one or two strategies that win all of the time. Plans fail more often than usual. Fighting is more intense and stressful - which affects the mind along with the body.
This inflicts negative psychological consequences and conjures various neuroses, leaving the marines edgy, anxious, and insecure. The marines lose when they start thinking that they are going to lose. I am completely serious about this, as the moment of morale destruction turns the tide in favour of the aliens. The aliens then destroy the marine team. The cycle then repeats itself, and all effects compound on each other. People keep seeing the same thing happening over and over, and get convinced that something is wrong with the game and not with them.
The only way to reduce these occurances is to have more people leading the way for the marines, spurring them on, encouraging them when they complete objectives, guiding them when they stray, keeping the morale up. Not only should the commander be doing this, but also members of the marine forces. If you keep the positive atmosphere going, then losses get reduced, lessons are learned faster, mistakes become more scarce - a lot of good things happen. And this is exatly what the NS community needs on the marine team - a positive atmosphere to speed up the transition from 1.04 to 2.0. Marines are still competent without most of the 2.01x changes, but people have to learn from their mistakes to get to the necessary level of player potency.
There are a lot of complaints about the aliens expanding too easily and not defending. Well, <b>take advantage of this</b> and send out marauders to destroy the defenseless expansions. With teamwork, this can be achieved with little to no casualties. And that is what aliens would get for over-expanding, a loss of their expansions. A spit in the Kharaa collective's face would be to siege the hive while they're off expanding. There are many ways of stopping the Kharaa expansions dead in their tracks.
Then there are complaints about R4K. This is to discourage ramboing and bad teamwork on the Marine side and on the Kharaa side. It is more important for the Marines to decrease their casualties as much as possible. If the marines worked together, those skulks that want to get free kills would just get slaughtered by any squad. Yet people whine that they see fades too soon or onos too soon. This is because you got killed and gave those individual the required resources, and you deserve the punishment. I mean... 100 resources?!? Even 50 before you're ready? How'd they get that? Now the noose gets more tight around the general marine neck, and teamwork is emphasized or total disaster follows. This system works very well.
Now I realize that the aliens may be somewhat easier to play than marines, but if the marines shape up then they will be competent very soon. The radical changes in 2.01x aren't really necessary as the problem lies more in the players than in the game itself.
Personally, I think that the marines had it too easy in 1.04. The strategies were usually simple and could often be executed by just 2-3 marines (sometimes even one). Now in 2.0 comes *gasp* the need for teamwork, and lots of it. Along with the need for teamwork comes the need for flexibility when it comes to strategical thought. The flexibility is required from both the commander and marines. There is no one or two strategies that win all of the time. Plans fail more often than usual. Fighting is more intense and stressful - which affects the mind along with the body.
This inflicts negative psychological consequences and conjures various neuroses, leaving the marines edgy, anxious, and insecure. The marines lose when they start thinking that they are going to lose. I am completely serious about this, as the moment of morale destruction turns the tide in favour of the aliens. The aliens then destroy the marine team. The cycle then repeats itself, and all effects compound on each other. People keep seeing the same thing happening over and over, and get convinced that something is wrong with the game and not with them.
The only way to reduce these occurances is to have more people leading the way for the marines, spurring them on, encouraging them when they complete objectives, guiding them when they stray, keeping the morale up. Not only should the commander be doing this, but also members of the marine forces. If you keep the positive atmosphere going, then losses get reduced, lessons are learned faster, mistakes become more scarce - a lot of good things happen. And this is exatly what the NS community needs on the marine team - a positive atmosphere to speed up the transition from 1.04 to 2.0. Marines are still competent without most of the 2.01x changes, but people have to learn from their mistakes to get to the necessary level of player potency.
There are a lot of complaints about the aliens expanding too easily and not defending. Well, <b>take advantage of this</b> and send out marauders to destroy the defenseless expansions. With teamwork, this can be achieved with little to no casualties. And that is what aliens would get for over-expanding, a loss of their expansions. A spit in the Kharaa collective's face would be to siege the hive while they're off expanding. There are many ways of stopping the Kharaa expansions dead in their tracks.
Then there are complaints about R4K. This is to discourage ramboing and bad teamwork on the Marine side and on the Kharaa side. It is more important for the Marines to decrease their casualties as much as possible. If the marines worked together, those skulks that want to get free kills would just get slaughtered by any squad. Yet people whine that they see fades too soon or onos too soon. This is because you got killed and gave those individual the required resources, and you deserve the punishment. I mean... 100 resources?!? Even 50 before you're ready? How'd they get that? Now the noose gets more tight around the general marine neck, and teamwork is emphasized or total disaster follows. This system works very well.
Now I realize that the aliens may be somewhat easier to play than marines, but if the marines shape up then they will be competent very soon. The radical changes in 2.01x aren't really necessary as the problem lies more in the players than in the game itself.
Comments
On pubs, it's often bad commanders and/or bad players and/or bad teamwork. However, 2.0 is NOT balanced. Not quite, the late changes in 2.0x broke the balance (to make it more fun), as proven very thoroughly by the vets (who are not having a learning curve problem having played for 4 months). Even with the radical alien nerfs and marine ups of 2.01x, vet clans cannot beat even normal clans as 'rines. So, no, it's not balanced. It is, however, a lot better balanced than people give it credit, and is really really close, and is really really fun.
Yes, there are a lot of problems with the players. No, not all of them lie there.
Everyone complains about how this and that is not overpowered and how they should just learn to do this and do that... hey guess what nuts to you, that’s right forget what you think people should have fun you know FUN and not have to do this and do that they should be able to have fun not every person wants to play to win or the joy of winning some just want to have some fun bashing aliens. Now I seem hateful because I've done a little testing and I watched 5 matches’s on different servers and most follow the set dumb pattern.
Marines start off, Marines expand out to res tower, Build turrets all seems well, They kill a few aliens, Aliens build sensory chambers around marines position, By now the aliens have 2-3 onos charge in and well marines lose point, Marines fall back to spawn as they meet onos the onos stomp devour a marine and run off, Now the aliens are right outside marines spawn with sensory towers and Defense towers all over the place, Marines are fighting well pushing onos to a crawl a steady crawl (I notice if the marines were fighting anything else but onos the aliens couldn’t win so easy) but onos gets in destroys a turret or two run off or have redemption, repeat for a bit, end of game takes like 8-10 minutes
Now Im thinking what the hell even in 1.4 the games almost never had a set winner its not like oh marines are going to win you had a decent damn chance to win whatever team you were on. Now here is something that will shock you The fact is Aliens are now powerful as hell and Marines aren’t nerfed or anything just can’t compete with it (Mostly because onos are so easy to get now and they are SUPPOSE TO BE A 3 HIVE ALIEN FOR LATER IN THE GAME!) These are facts just facts. Now how you interpret those facts are your own opinion’s so you can say screw you fool or your a fucken noob ect ect still doesn’t change the facts. Hell I still like the game but I liked it when it didn’t feel like the downtime between being onos rushed. But those are just my two cents
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...the late changes in 2.0x broke the balance (to make it more fun), as proven very thoroughly by the vets (who are not having a learning curve problem having played for 4 months). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats exactly one of the problems. The patches and updates to teh game are always tested by vets and clans, etc etc. There are always more and more new people just beginning to play NS, and newbies and vets play very differently from one another. If a game is constantly tested by vets, the newbies are going to be jumping into a game made specifically for people who already have experience, and will thus be slaughtered in game, become discouraged, and quit entirely. Creating a severely competitive game that is not easy to get into sucks all the fun out of it, which is exactly what nobody seems to understand.
But at the same time.... I do keep losing as marines, even with an awesome commander and peppy comrades.
the most meaningful thing the first post has to offer is the comment on morale. people are just apt to blame anything/everything aside from themselves. but indeed, all too often do i see people (on both teams) GIVING UP. its like they think they can see into the future. they "know" beyond ANY coersion that they have lost. thus, they quit. everything has to be so fast its not even funny. 60 minutes is too long. they dont wanna "drag it out" if they "know" theyre gonna lose. whats next? analyzing team composition and declairing a mathematical winner before the game even starts?!
people, <b>stop giving up</b>! yes, some situations are impossible. others arent. and its <b>very</b> often i see people confusing the two. when you have a team of dedicated players, who are there for the thrill of the competiton and not 100% guraranteed success, thats when the sparks fly and the magic of this game happens. its an amazing thing. never ever ever forget that even if you have a 99% chance of failure, it is not hopeless.
if youve got a(some) player(s) keeping the teams morale up, the team will perform better, guaranteed. granted, that doesnt mean "a happy, positive, self-confident team will always win". because the biggest lesson is, nothing is absolute. until youre back in that readyroom, the game is not over.
thats the beauty of this game. the true vision of it all. the map-control dynamic is unbelieveable. it can be likend to a fast-paced, more interesting game of Go. indeed, many of that games philosophies and strategies apply here. no matter how strong the enemy line is, youve still got a chance(maybe not so apparant in Go, but i digress).
this game is what combat is. this game is what war is. this game is psychological, philosophical, and an unbelieveable means of expression.
but only if the games actually end, and if everyone is enjoying themselves. yes, even the losing team can still have fun.
NS 2.0 has been more fun to me than 1.04 could have ever been. I'm sure others share my view. I've been staying up later than ever, and have actually been putting in all-nighters just to play. But I know that some can't accept change or find it very difficult to do so.
So while people learn how to play with all of the changes, it would greatly help if we didn't hold the game responsible for all of the imbalance - and looked to ourselves first.
I was playing on the 'rine side (I usually do, because I like to follow the aspect of descovering the game through the eyes of the marines, feeling the chill of being attacked by an "unknown" enemy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->).
We had played a lot of time -something like 30-40 minutes I think and evetually, odds were that we were on the losing side: Some Fades and Gorges attacking the main base, all advanced rez nodes lost (only the one in the com center room was lsting).
And guess what happened? The com himself gave up. He popped out the com center and simply left the server.
And guess what happened next? Over players gave up. They can't be blamed: they got clear hte message their commander gave them: "Everything's over, I gotta get my soft **** outta here!"
From a 8-10 team, we ended up to a 5-6 team.
On the alien side, people were quitting too (but dont ask me why, I have no clue).
The fact is I feel sorry for those guys since they thought they knew the end of the story and didn't keep reading, but since I, like the one who wanted to stay till the end, got to know how things actually ended up.
Since none was jumping in the com chair, I took on me to get in. By this time, I only had played as a com only once before, and got kicked quickly that time(it was a party most devoted to german people and since I dont know german, I can understand why I got disabled that quick^^). So you can understand that I was a little bit stressed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I didn't want to give up, and if we had to lose, then we would do it in a true marine fashion, or so I thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Dont ask me how, but with those 4 guys, we managed to hold our position and evetually save the place long enough to rebuild the base.
When the calm returned and we had some time to rest, I annouced to the team what I wanted from them: since we were so little players, I asked them to ALWAYS stick together, and that I would not spend resource on desobeying soldiers. I added that I was starting to upgrade their equipement (Hell! the previous com had only upgraded once the guns!). And finished my speach telling them that if they sticked together, I would always be there, watching their back and giving them full support.
This had made the claims stop and the team walked as one. I kept on giving them advices ("Only one guy to build the turrets, while the others are to watch his back for potential enemies to come" etc), providing them ammo when asked, health when needed and everything worked well.
Of course there were glitches ("Com! I want a jet paaaaack!" "Com I want a GL!") but theses could be resolved easily and calmly ("Listen soldier, you'll get it in due time, for now stick to your team. I'm doing the upgrades to get it." "Soldier, look up on you HUD:we are too low on ressources for now. Wait a little." ).
But the team was ok: the rambos got back to the main groups, the moral was okay: they knew I was there and I would help them so they felt confident.
I explained why I was doing this and that, why I wanted them to stay in position (particularly necessary when the rambos were getting nervous): "Now that you have waited a little (near the armurery), I can give you new toys to play with team(giving HA, Shotties). Now that everyone is happy with commander Santa, move to next waypoint soldiers"
and of course they were happy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I explained what my next plan was: "by the time you arrive to the wpoint, HMG should be availible, so you'll have to build an a turret factory plus armory. If everything is okay, we'll build also a phase and it will be our next advanced base". I guess it always sounds good into a 'rine's ears to learn they are going to have bigger guns if they manage to keep things under control, don't you think so? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And so on.
At a moment, I left the aliens attack -and destroy- our main base. It took us valuable ressources, but while they were using their forces on this main attack, I had another com center installed in another of our bases and we had managed to conquer more than half of the ressource nodes of the map, so it wasn't bad that, particularly for the following reasons...
The best thing was,having destroyed our previous com center, to hear the aliens say: "Come out you marines! You are doomed!"
and telling my guys "Okay, they took out our previous control point and now they think we are lost. Let's show them how wrong they are people..." ^_^
What can I say? I'm only sad that I couldnt see the expression on the faces of their onos when they saw us keeping coming again and again for the siege to their hives. Oh yes! And eventually, we won.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
All this speech to tell you two things:
1- Communicate. As a marine, talk to you teamates, organise your group. tell who's gonna be the builder, whose gonna be the rear guard, and tell jokes to decompress the atmosphere. Everyone will feel better and you'll get appreciated, and even if you lose, you'll have been spending a good time in a team that you may have finally really liked.
As a com, talk to your men, organise the squads, give them explainations on why you are doing this, temporize their lust for bigger guns with casual, yet understandable answers, tell them what upgrades have been achieved (good for the moral to know you are becoming a big tough guy^^), and tell jokes, it really helps. Also, be supportive, assist them in their rush for the next wpoint, try to keep them alive, you'll get apprciated, and even if you lose, you'll have been spending a good time with people that will love you (a good commander was a pretty rare thing lately).
I have been commander only three times as far as I played, counting the german server experience. I led my team to victory only once, the other time, I had to leave the game to get some important matter done (real-life matters). Both times, people were telling me: "Okay, bye! you've been a great com! See ya!" and it felt really rewarding, trust me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I did get appreciated, and this can only be achieved by comminacting with your guys and assisting them.
After all, that's what a good com is asked to do, isn't he?
2- NEVER GIVE UP! See? those guys thought that we were doomed and left, but we finally managed to get the story to a happy end (for us marines, of course^_^). And even if you are really doomed, doesn't it feel great to have an heroic death while standing your ground with your teamates till the very last one of you -often the com <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->- falls?
Well, I, IMHO, think it's great <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's just like in the movies! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Try your best till the end. I say it for NS, but also in real-life. Eventualy, it pays. Or if not, at least you wont have any regrets. (But it should pay <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
I think the biggest thing 2.0 has done is forced the game to be based around teamwork even more, and to be honest, that's the whole reason I play it.
Have never been much into games, but this one just has such a social aspect, and so much a feeling of working alongside other players, communicating and all being involved in the same goal.
That is why NS rocks... and that is why those people who find no pleasure in the team aspect will just get on going to something else, and the rest will remain, totally engrossed by how it all draws you in.
2.0 now has serious counters to almost anything either team can throw at you. No longer does it have those huge tipping points like the 2nd hive or JP + HMG. As a result, the focus is put back on the team that can work best together, and that's the way it should be! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lol!
I was imagining the folowing after reading this comment:
"JeeR[to team]:Bouhouhouh!!! Why don't you people stop whining about people! That's soooooo uncool! Can't they see they s*ck when they say that other people are s*ckin' ? I really think that people who are complaining about other ones are a real pain in the *biiip!* ! Don't you agree? An I'll tell you that: I particularly hate those guys who are telling you that you s*ck. That's why I keep telling them that they s*ck! Telling someone that he s*cks at a video game is such s*cky that it's the s*ckiest s*cking thing that ever s*cked!"
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But still, it appears that there's truly more people whining after people ("the marines s*ck!" "you com are nutz or what?" etc.) than complaining about the game... That's a good thing(the game is really cool then^^)/bad thing dilemna...