The main flaw lies in that 1 alien res is worth much much much more than 1 marine res, and how easily the alien’s higher form of res can be aquired.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The Arms Lab Unproportionality</span>(Is that even a word? Heh.)
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> A Small Improvement to Make Small NS Games not Suck</span>
It goes like this: Any given team cannot have more active nodes than they do teammembers. You can still build nodes, they just won't take in any res. The nodes can be built just to deny the enemy of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problems with the problems:
Problem #1: So, you're saying that aliens getting less res is an imbalance... in the *aliens* favour? Besides, balance isn't just a matter of both getting equal amounts; in all probability, the two teams are not equally res-dependant.
Problem #2: Umm, couldn't the same also be said about the costs of Hives, DCs, MCs and SCs? Or do the costs of these chambers and their upgrades increase?
Problem #3: The problem is that this is a little... counter-intuative. Seeing as we're talking about a both-team change anyway, I don't see any point to adding that.
But nonetheless, well done for a thoughtful post, you obviously put a lot into those ideas rather than just 'OMG, ALIENS SHUD HAV MOOR RES!!!!11', so kudos to you! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Adding to what you've already said:
1: This isn't a good solution because ALL aliens are getting res from it. Now if all the aliens are munching marines every so often this COMPOUNDS things rather than making it better. More aliens will have more res than one alien having most of it. Now this doesn't sound too bad, but when you consider that the good skulk will only be delayed slightly. However, gorges and other aliens evolutions will be sped up. This will lead to an increased amount of chambers, higher evolutions (overall) and probably res.
Forlorns idea completely fails to account the REAL problem. The fact that aliens can end up with 6/1 RT's in the opening SECONDS of a game. If they defend these well enough this is the instant economic advantage that is smashing marines in scrimms and on some publics already.
This simply put fails to address this problem.
2: Same goes for chambers. More aliens=more potential gorges=all 3 chambers quicker. And they can still put up RT's as well. There is nothing here that is even remotely a problem. Marines are still going to get thumped against relatively competent aliens.
3: This is just ridiculous, contrary to any logic whatsoever and ultimately confusing.
Plus it is just not needed. If you have a 4 vs 4 then all anyone could do is just build 4 nodes and turret/oc them to death. Nobody would bother trying to get the others as there simply wouldn't be any point. It's just silly.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Glide+Aug 7 2003, 12:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Glide @ Aug 7 2003, 12:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only reason why aliens get loads of res from kills is because the marines are ramboing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly... its a team affair, and the rines arnt pulling their weight. Yesterday I comm'd a turret farming rine team against onos and came out on top. Even when they had secured both hives and we only had 1 resource tower. Its all about teamwork, the problems we are seeing is on pubs. Where most newbies prefer marines over aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly either, a 3 skulk team can almost kill any group of marines. And when rushing base they'll get some kill despite if the base has a turret. Also, R4K is much more powerful for the aliens, that it goes into an individual pool instead of the team pool as the 'rines. If we make the R4K shared with your team equally we'll remove a big advantage for the alien. And I think it's justified <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The main flaw lies in that 1 alien res is worth much much much more than 1 marine res, and how easily the alien’s higher form of res can be aquired.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The Arms Lab Unproportionality</span>(Is that even a word? Heh.)
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> A Small Improvement to Make Small NS Games not Suck</span>
It goes like this: Any given team cannot have more active nodes than they do teammembers. You can still build nodes, they just won't take in any res. The nodes can be built just to deny the enemy of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problems with the problems:
Problem #1: So, you're saying that aliens getting less res is an imbalance... in the *aliens* favour? Besides, balance isn't just a matter of both getting equal amounts; in all probability, the two teams are not equally res-dependant.
Problem #2: Umm, couldn't the same also be said about the costs of Hives, DCs, MCs and SCs? Or do the costs of these chambers and their upgrades increase?
Problem #3: The problem is that this is a little... counter-intuative. Seeing as we're talking about a both-team change anyway, I don't see any point to adding that.
But nonetheless, well done for a thoughtful post, you obviously put a lot into those ideas rather than just 'OMG, ALIENS SHUD HAV MOOR RES!!!!11', so kudos to you! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Adding to what you've already said:
1: This isn't a good solution because ALL aliens are getting res from it. Now if all the aliens are munching marines every so often this COMPOUNDS things rather than making it better. More aliens will have more res than one alien having most of it. Now this doesn't sound too bad, but when you consider that the good skulk will only be delayed slightly. However, gorges and other aliens evolutions will be sped up. This will lead to an increased amount of chambers, higher evolutions (overall) and probably res.
Forlorns idea completely fails to account the REAL problem. The fact that aliens can end up with 6/1 RT's in the opening SECONDS of a game. If they defend these well enough this is the instant economic advantage that is smashing marines in scrimms and on some publics already.
This simply put fails to address this problem.
2: Same goes for chambers. More aliens=more potential gorges=all 3 chambers quicker. And they can still put up RT's as well. There is nothing here that is even remotely a problem. Marines are still going to get thumped against relatively competent aliens.
3: This is just ridiculous, contrary to any logic whatsoever and ultimately confusing.
Plus it is just not needed. If you have a 4 vs 4 then all anyone could do is just build 4 nodes and turret/oc them to death. Nobody would bother trying to get the others as there simply wouldn't be any point. It's just silly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> #1) R4K is in the alien favour, the res system for the aliens was made for a reason, R4K ruins that reason. Also the bigger the game is the harder it is for the aliens, something I dont think is fair.
#2) the keyword is "potential" remember, they'll all get the same res as with 3 people than with 12. You'll also need a very good skulker to put the hive up (really a big IF, because people are rather saving for an onos) either that or you'll wait 15 minutes getting to the 45 res, and you're probably the one getting nodes and chambers at the start <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->#1) R4K is in the alien favour, the res system for the aliens was made for a reason, R4K ruins that reason. Also the bigger the game is the harder it is for the aliens, something I dont think is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get this really. Res for kills isn't the problem when you have 6 RT's straight off the bat. That gives EVERYONE fast res and the marines cannot then keep up with alien tech. The res for kills system merely serves to just compound things.
For number 2, most alien teams are figuring out that more gorges=more chambers and res=win. I see this happening more and more on servers now. It isn't so much as "potential" as "who". Also many are realising that yes, hive 1 onos/fade IS pointless.
1. Placing the kill res into the alien res pool and then letting it be distributed as normal node res would be about 48.3 times easier to code, and to understand, and have the same dispersing effect. And I just dont understand how you can say that 1 res is 'worth' more to aliens than marines. Your argument is based on only looking at the *incredibly* short term effect. Lets also remember than a super-early Fade or Onos really doesn't stand a chance if the comm has one ounce of intelligence. If he doesn't, well then he deserves to get mashed.
2. Your arms lab unproportionality applies lots of other places as well, why make changes to just the arms lab? Shouldn't hives cost more on big teams, seeing as more aliens get the benefit of new abilities? Should primal scream energy cost change depending on how many aliens get boosted by it? 2 HAs with welders are more than twice as effective as 1 HA with welder. Should HA cost increase based on the number of welders you already have in play? The point is there are lots of flat rate or non-linear cost vs effectiveness things in this game, and focusing on just the arms lab is a little silly.
3. Dont play small games. I dont believe NS is even intended to be balanced at the 2v2 level.
There are flaws even more fundamental than those, Forlorn, but I won't mention them until after I've played NS for another week or so. The symptoms are evident: the difficulty of alien endgames compared to marine endgames, commander getting overburdened, early oni, etc.
I think some number tweaking and conditionals can fix things adequately. It's definitely not time to do major revising. If NS is ported (or rather rewritten) for HL 2, fundamental issues can be revisited.
You really thought this out and your spelling and such is clear, but I don't think it would work.
The whole intention of getting res for kills was to reward skilled alien players so they could evolve faster. This also makes sure noobs can't save up for onos the whole game only to die 30 seconds after evolving. It encourages them to kill. If res is shared with the whole team, you will have people camping the hive while most of the team is going out and killing and dying. The hive camper is rewarded extra res, and doesn't have to worry about upgrades like the fellow aliens that are going out and dying in the battles. I have found the best way to get res is to go gorge, drop a res node and build it. After the node is up, just evolve back to skulk, because getting res as a gorge takes too long if you aren't getting kills. (Which you most likely aren't.) As a skulk you can usually get a good amount of res in a matter of a few minutes.
Another point is scrimming as aliens. It is vital that you get res for kills. You need some people to gorge early, and others to stay skulk so they can get the early kills so they will have res later in the game. If res was shared throughout the team it would probably work, but I think the aliens might expand slower because you will just have dedicated gorges like in 1.0x.
i don't think it will work....your ideas are too abstract and don't take into account a million other factors
the fact that you can manage to fit a <i>complete</i> analysis under 3 headers is also amusing
perhaps spend your time on producing your own well balanced game instead of creating a page-long post claiming that you've completely analysed the game in less than a week
maybe play it a bit more?? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited October 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Opt1mus+Aug 9 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Opt1mus @ Aug 9 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn, i <3 you
i don't think it will work....your ideas are too abstract and don't take into account a million other factors
the fact that you can manage to fit a <i>complete</i> analysis under 3 headers is also amusing
perhaps spend your time on producing your own well balanced game instead of creating a page-long post claiming that you've completely analysed the game in less than a week
maybe play it a bit more?? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Does this not sound familiar? If you can't back up anything that you say, or are too lazy to back up anything that you say, then there's absolutely no reason for you to post anything. There is no reason to post this kind of inane derogatory nonsense.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Ok... nerf the shotgun, and find a way to implement the flamethrower!!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shotgun rushes SUCK! Even with a good skulk team, when those 8 nubs with big guns come down, ONE is bound to hit you SOME TIME! They fire at... what, 10000 damage every 10 seconds? Then a 15 second reload! OUCH! That hive is goin down mighty fast!
In short, a good marine team vs a good alien team = marine's pwn the early game, alien pwn the mid-early game, and the rest is a stalemate!
HA/HMG vs fade = dead fade (unless he knows how to use blink! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hmm... I have seen (and lost) many games where marines were in one hive, and had 2 t=facs, 1 arms lab, 1 proto lab, 2 IP's, a PG to their outer res node (Ill go over that outpost in a moment) 25 turrets, lvl 3 of everything, HA's, JP's, upgraded armory, and just CAMPED their hive!!!
Their outpost had 1 CC, 1 PG, 1 armory, 1 t-fac, and 20 turrets!!!!
Aliens could NOT break through this! Even after 2 onos and my "ninja fade" went in (I blinked behind the labs and took em both out b4 the com popped me with a shotty) the 2 onos (with carapace) lasted abotu 10 seconds against all those turrets... enough time to run in, get 2-3 hits, and TRY (in vain) to escape to a DC. Even after I had both the proto lab and the arms labs down, those turrets kept the base alive! Even with 2 res ndoes, the mariens just sat there camping till they got the labs and upgrades back!
HMGs = weed whackers!
3 GL's = **** door spammage (but the gun looks SO COOL)
My suggestion for this is:
Make metabolize do 2 things:
One: heals 20 HP AND 10 armor at the same time, THEN does 20 armor!
TWO: Prevents all damage from structures for 5 seconds (and uses 50% of the energy)
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings)
I counted, and it takes 10 direct hits from acid rocket to kill a turret! That's a long time when you have 2 HA/GL's and 1 JP/HMG looking for you!
To help the marines push out:
Erm, can you make the HMG cone tighter? It's impossible to kill a metabolizing fade from more than 10 feet away right now... (or maybe just lag?)
Also, make an LMG clip upgrade or something. I LOVE the LMG, but it needs a makeover...
And the shotgun... erm... *pshaw* what can I say? Reduce the RoF by 25% (back to 1.04 I think) and increase the damage dealt by 5 points. Also, make it an advanced armory weapon (or make it require an arms lab at least to stop the g@y shotgun rushes at start)
As for the JP, GOOD JOB! I love it! Still can fly, just no stayin up there!
Can you boost the onos carapace back to 350? It goes down VERY fast to a shotgunner!
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm... doesn't that mean that, at 1 hive, the Fade wouldn't have any attacks? Just blink and Metabolize?
Kinda ruins the 2.0 ability to use any aliens at any hive level.
Shotgun rushes SUCK! Even with a good skulk team, when those 8 nubs with big guns come down, ONE is bound to hit you SOME TIME! They fire at... what, 10000 damage every 10 seconds? Then a 15 second reload! OUCH! That hive is goin down mighty fast!
<b>Shotguns rushes keep aliens in check so they won't expand too fast and leave their hive undefended.</b>
HA/HMG vs fade = dead fade (unless he knows how to use blink!
<b>Depends on player skill</b>
My suggestion for this is:
Make metabolize do 2 things:
One: heals 20 HP AND 10 armor at the same time, THEN does 20 armor!
<b>I think its fine how it is, its not meant to be used during combat</b>
TWO: Prevents all damage from structures for 5 seconds (and uses 50% of the energy)
<b>Thats a little powerful since it would apply to electric res too.</b>
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings)
<b>How if the fade suposed to attack before he gets 2 hives? blink at them?</b>
I counted, and it takes 10 direct hits from acid rocket to kill a turret! That's a long time when you have 2 HA/GL's and 1 JP/HMG looking for you!
<b>acid rocket isn't the turret counter, bile bomb is</b>
Well thought out Forlorn I agree with you on most points. Now lets take a deeper look into the whole RFK situation.
Forlorn is correct: one alien resource is worth more than one marine resource. Not just because those RFK resources represent such a substantial boost in an individual's resources, but because those res can manifest themselves in far more powerful ways.
RFK does not just come from ramboing. THis is a really common misconception that I see heaps of people stateing every day in this forum. The fact is that groups of skulks working together can and DO ambush marine groups moving to locations on the map. Skulks also very often "suicide rush" a marine group, hoping to pick off just one person before dying. Not only does that one skulk get a rush of res, that marine group is weakened. So often I see marine groups making their way across the map and being picked off one by one. This is partizan warfare, exactly what the aliens are supposed to be doing, and there's nothing wrong with it. The thing is that even when marines move as groups, some if not all of them can and do die. and by dieing they fuel the individual alien resource flow.
Now looking at RFK on both sides, it becomes quickly apparent that good skulks can unbalance the game quite easily, whilst marines have a tough time combatting this. Skulk x is a pretty "elite" 5k|_|1k, he notches up 10 marine kills in the first couple of minutes. He's now sitting on around 50 res because he didn't temp at the start. How can he use that res?
- He can Fade. A good choice, because he can now take on groups of up to 4 LA marines with little difficulty. This fuels his res flow even faster. Better yet, any res nodes that the com has managed to electrify he can now take down with some gorge support.
- He can put a hive up. Another excellent choice. Soon afterwards the alien team will benefit as a whole from his actions. Gorges will soon be able to decimate marine defensive structures, skulks will become even more deadlier with leap, the lerks can now spam umbra helping negate many marine weapons, any Fades can now metabolise, allowing them to work free from hives, DCs, or gorges. Any early oni as well will have stomp, which increases the onos' power 5-fold. Better still, the team now has access to a new chamber.
- He can put up some chambers or OCs. Again, a good choice. This benefits the team overall, and can help seal off strataigic points. Creating forward healing bases or cloaking stations helps his team-mates out and fuels the res of his team's killing.
- He can keep saving for an onos. Whilst not the best choice maybe, if Skulk x continues his form he could be there quite quickly. The introduction of an early onos can be devestating to a marine team, as now virtually any marine outpost is vunerable.
Ok, now the flipside, the marines. Marine Squad 1 is a pretty fine squad, top of their class and able to choose which skulk eyeball to aim at from 300m. This group in the first couple of minutes applies excellent pressure on some alien res points and notches up 10 kills. The marine team has gained around 20 - 25 res. How can this be best used?
- Research. This is probably the best area to invest in. That res could be used to put an arms lab up, or if one is already up, it could buy a weapon upgrade. It could be used to contribute to a motion tracking investment also, or to upgrade the armoury.
- Construction. Another good area, the com could build a new res node or electrify a current one. He could build a forward observatory or a tf and one or two turrets. However, anything the com constructs is at risk from a gorge assult or a Fade attack, and unless the alien team has been very lax on kills, there's gonna be a second hive up very soon, which makes all outposts vunerable.
- Equipment. This CAN work, but it's probably a bad area. 2 shotguns can boost a marine team, but light armours are still very vunerable to ambush. This could net the com a good investment, but more likely the shotgunners will only be able to manage a few kills before being overwhelmed. Still, this can work, but it's not a concrete investment.
Now in a game where Skulk X and Marine Squad 1 are both playing, at the 5 minute mark of the game the marines are already in serious trouble. They've most likely managed to get lvl 1 weapons, but Skulk x is now a Fade and has been destroying group efforts to reach vital locations. OR A second hive is up, and gorges are bilebombing the com's 3 electrified RTs, and Squad 1 can't be everywhere at once. OR Squad 1 now has 2 shotgunners, and whilst these tough talking grunts have notched up some kills, they are quickly overwhelmed by an alien team that has constructed sensory stations across the map. The com has tried scanner sweeping, but his lone observatory quickly runs out of power, and Skulk x and his comrades rush in for the kill.
Bear in mind that the above scenarios happen all the time: everyone has met Skulk X or Marine Squad 1. The differance between what the 2 sides can do with that early res is striking, and the aliens defenitly have the advantage from it. Note however, that in a game where only Skulk x was playing, the alien team has virtually won already: the advantages gained from his kills are just too great. In a game where Marine Squad 1 is only playing, victory is by no means assured: partizan tactics and suicide attacks mean that no matter how good Marine Squad 1 is they will take casualties, not to mention the rest of the marine team. These casualties translate into a much more deadly alien side much faster than the marines can match.
In it's current form, the simple truth is that RFK is unbalancing the game, not to mention focusing both sides into a gameplay style that is hardly conductive to teamplay. Already the cries of "KILL-STEALER!" echo across alien teams, and RFK simply encourages the aliens to focus on a very individualistic style of play as opposed to working together. Changes that are coming into the game in the betas still try to work around RFK instead of changing RFK or better yet simply doing away with it all together. NS, which was always supposed to be about the stratagic control of resources, is instead turning into a CS-style grab for kills.
The simplest method to rebalance RFK would be to spread alien res for kills out across all the players, but this could still produce problems as those res will still be so much faster than standard alien res flow from RTs. In the end it may be that RFK is impossible to balance into the game, and whilst it remains gameplay will certainly be continuing to suffer.
I guess this is what happens when you close the Suggestions forum down for two weeks. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Aug 7 2003, 08:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Aug 7 2003, 08:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>"overall upgrades" also are in EVERY RTS and they upgrade every unit no matter how many you have. And it NEVER leads to imballance.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I've sorta left this thread behind a little, but I really must adress this terrible misconception:
You are correct. In every RTS upgrading units can be done always at the same cost. This is because in an RTS you can change <b>how many units you have</b>, and <b>all races/sides in the game can get unit upgrades whenever they feel</b>, and none of this leads to imbalance because everyone can do it. In a FPSRTS, your amounts of units always stay the same.
This imbalance is so obvious I'm amazed others can't see it.
What is better on a 12v12? Upgrading all of your marines for 20 res or giving one of them an HMG?
By the same token, on a 4v4, giving out an HMG is much much more benifical than giving all 4 of your marines +10% to their upgrades.
In a RTSFPS, you <b>cannot</b> change how many units you have! This is why the arms lab is unfair! It's pricey to a small team, and way overpowered to a large one!
It's not like I can "build" more marines to take advantage of my upgrades. The imbalance caused by the arms lab on large servers is painfully obvious.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've neglected to look at the whole.
In big games, individual res is worth more to aliens. In big games, arms labs are worth more to marines.
Notice something here? In big games, each side has a different type of advantage.
Also, the only way your math works for skulks is assuming that the skulks don't choose any upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! Two imbalances! That must make everything right!
Notice how in my main post, alien R4K is listed as the #1 problem. And the arms lab is #2. Alien R4K is much stronger than anything the arms lab can spit out.
If you fix R4K for the aliens, then the arms lab on large servers will cause lots of troubles for aliens. That is why it needs to be fixed.
It seems I've been looking at the big picture, and you have not.
"The only reason why aliens get loads of res from kills is because the marines are ramboing."
thats just not true. I lost count of how many times I have attacked say 3-4 marines setting up a rt(with 1-2 building it) as a skulk with no ups and killed them all and the rt and the reinforcements.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flippy|Gc+Aug 9 2003, 01:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flippy|Gc @ Aug 9 2003, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Play the game and don't get so technical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AMEN. I mean, sure, the game isn't perfectly balanced; everyone sees that the aliens win more often than the marines -- but not THAT much more often. a lot of thought has gone into this mod. the two teams are not supposed to play similarly. I see super-skulks who get 6 kills in a row about as often as I see super-commanders who secure 4 res nodes and a hive in a row. the mod is very enjoyable; there's no point in reworking the resource system. the minor tweaks they've been doing in the 2.01 releases are balancing the game.
I don't even agree that 1 alien res is worth more than 1 marine res; in fact, I always thought of it as being the opposite. if 6 aliens and 1 commander each get 1 res for every tick of a RT, then in a 6v6 game 1 marine res is more-or-less worth 6 alien res if spent right. when you think of it that way, 1 marine killing ONE skulk and getting 3 res is really worth 3 * 6 = 18 alien res... because that 3 res is spent helping the entire team, either defending or upgrading... rather than helping a lone skulk.
think about it: if that 1 skulk kills 6 marines and gets enough res to build a hive, that's 6 to 18 res that the rest of his team DOESN'T have, to spend helping defend said hive. if he chooses to spend his res to go fade early instead, he has to deal with 6 marines, ideally moving in a group, and he'll get mown right the heck down, losing 50 res.
i feeel as if it is not the res necessarilly but the ability to go Onos at the 2nd lvl that really hurts the process. THe arines don't stand a chance if they get a few Onoses and a few lerks. According to all the servers i have played on marines CAN NOT WIN. It is a rare ocasion when marines can pull there weight now becuase the Aliens are to over power with just 2 hives.
I just wish ppl would play as a team more, I have been having some really bad game where team play or lack of it, has lost us the edge over an easy WIN!
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 14 2003, 06:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 14 2003, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wish ppl would play as a team more, I have been having some really bad game where team play or lack of it, has lost us the edge over an easy WIN! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Play another server?
<!--QuoteBegin--SinSpawn+Aug 14 2003, 12:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Aug 14 2003, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 14 2003, 06:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 14 2003, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wish ppl would play as a team more, I have been having some really bad game where team play or lack of it, has lost us the edge over an easy WIN! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Play another server? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Play another server... Your crazy, how could this solve this problem? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Have you thought that a pound of lead on one side and a pound of feathers on the other are still balanced, even though one looks a lot bigger than the other?
In other words, unlike a standard RTS where units are all pretty similar (if not the same), the vastly different abilities and even functioning of each team makes it so you can't simply isolate single features.
Let's look at what spreading alien RFK will do to the marines. As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently.
Now, let's look at the armory.. it has more effect in larger games than smaller ones, this is true. This is also something for a good commander to be aware of. Of course larger games also mean larger alien teams, which mean that the marines actually need those widespread benefits more, simply because a commander is only one person, and the effort of micromanagement goes up almost exponentially as the number of people go up. Also, larger alien teams mean more aliens available for early rushes.. which means you need those upgrade sooner. Increasing the cost of it as the team sizes go up serves only to doom the marines, as repeated waves of skulks hit the base, and if each skulk manages to cut down only one marine before dying, then he's set to get an upgrade and perhaps be able to take out two next time. This means that by the time your increased research cost can be afforded, aliens have already fully upgraded themselves and are considering going lerk/fade, and an early lerk near marine base is *bad news*, especially when marines are busy trying to save for upgrades so aren't able to be handing out the HA and GLs willy nilly. (All this is assuming the RFK isn't distributed. If it is, they've also got second hive up.)
Now, you can look further into these situations and see that there are things that balance them the other way as well, but this just goes to prove my point.. you can't just pick out a couple of things and look at them and say "Here's the problem", because you'd be wrong.
The problem is a mix of a bunch of interconnecting factors. That being said there might be a couple of things we can change that essentially fix it, but I don't think your ideas are what will do it.
Increasing res distribution is only good for general pub games where you have difference in opinion on how it should be spent. So any discussion about REDISTRIBUTION OF RES is completely irrelevant. FORGET IT.
Dynamic upgrade costs? Only necessary if you are going to do it to both sides. FORGET IT.
I am not qualified to make a comment on small NS games. Much like the OP was not qualified to make a post.
wow, very very well thought out concepts man, awesome work. But some of your solutions are, lets say, convoluted. Over complicated. They compensate for a different aspect of the res problem that should be fixxed all together rather then patched up to work. Check out my post on my view of the res situation <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=43048' target='_blank'>here</a>. But awesome job man, very good observation with the alien res being worth more, im sure it left quite of few of your readers scratching their head too hehe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's look at what spreading alien RFK will do to the marines. As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not static defense that we marines worry about. The problem is Skulk X putting the hive up within 2 minutes of the game starting thanks to RFK. The problem is Skulk X going onos 5 minutes into the game before the marines have a chance to tech sufficiently to deal with an onos, again thanks to RFK. Distributing RFK over the whole team means that yes, you might face more stuff, but LATER. Marines can deal with just about anything the aliens can throw at them (except 3rd hive) provided that they have sufficient tech. What is currently happening is that the aliens are teching so ungodly fast (current record for 2nd hive up 2:41) thanks to RFK (and very fast expansion but that's a differant matter) that the marines are overwhelmed before they can even get close to the tech required to match 2 hive aliens.
You're probably right: overall the aliens would end up in the better position from distributed RFK. But they reach it LATER, when the marines have a chance to deal with it. Personally I'd rather see RFK just go; it's hurting gameplay and balance, but that's another thread and another debate.
Comments
The main flaw lies in that 1 alien res is worth much much much more than 1 marine res, and how easily the alien’s higher form of res can be aquired.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The Arms Lab Unproportionality</span>(Is that even a word? Heh.)
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> A Small Improvement to Make Small NS Games not Suck</span>
It goes like this: Any given team cannot have more active nodes than they do teammembers. You can still build nodes, they just won't take in any res. The nodes can be built just to deny the enemy of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problems with the problems:
Problem #1: So, you're saying that aliens getting less res is an imbalance... in the *aliens* favour? Besides, balance isn't just a matter of both getting equal amounts; in all probability, the two teams are not equally res-dependant.
Problem #2: Umm, couldn't the same also be said about the costs of Hives, DCs, MCs and SCs? Or do the costs of these chambers and their upgrades increase?
Problem #3: The problem is that this is a little... counter-intuative. Seeing as we're talking about a both-team change anyway, I don't see any point to adding that.
But nonetheless, well done for a thoughtful post, you obviously put a lot into those ideas rather than just 'OMG, ALIENS SHUD HAV MOOR RES!!!!11', so kudos to you! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding to what you've already said:
1: This isn't a good solution because ALL aliens are getting res from it. Now if all the aliens are munching marines every so often this COMPOUNDS things rather than making it better. More aliens will have more res than one alien having most of it. Now this doesn't sound too bad, but when you consider that the good skulk will only be delayed slightly. However, gorges and other aliens evolutions will be sped up. This will lead to an increased amount of chambers, higher evolutions (overall) and probably res.
Forlorns idea completely fails to account the REAL problem. The fact that aliens can end up with 6/1 RT's in the opening SECONDS of a game. If they defend these well enough this is the instant economic advantage that is smashing marines in scrimms and on some publics already.
This simply put fails to address this problem.
2: Same goes for chambers. More aliens=more potential gorges=all 3 chambers quicker. And they can still put up RT's as well. There is nothing here that is even remotely a problem. Marines are still going to get thumped against relatively competent aliens.
3: This is just ridiculous, contrary to any logic whatsoever and ultimately confusing.
Plus it is just not needed. If you have a 4 vs 4 then all anyone could do is just build 4 nodes and turret/oc them to death. Nobody would bother trying to get the others as there simply wouldn't be any point. It's just silly.
The only reason why aliens get loads of res from kills is because the marines are ramboing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly... its a team affair, and the rines arnt pulling their weight. Yesterday I comm'd a turret farming rine team against onos and came out on top. Even when they had secured both hives and we only had 1 resource tower. Its all about teamwork, the problems we are seeing is on pubs.
Where most newbies prefer marines over aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not exactly either, a 3 skulk team can almost kill any group of marines. And when rushing base they'll get some kill despite if the base has a turret.
Also, R4K is much more powerful for the aliens, that it goes into an individual pool instead of the team pool as the 'rines.
If we make the R4K shared with your team equally we'll remove a big advantage for the alien. And I think it's justified <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The main flaw lies in that 1 alien res is worth much much much more than 1 marine res, and how easily the alien’s higher form of res can be aquired.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The Arms Lab Unproportionality</span>(Is that even a word? Heh.)
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyone here see the imbalance? It’s not hard to spot out.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> A Small Improvement to Make Small NS Games not Suck</span>
It goes like this: Any given team cannot have more active nodes than they do teammembers. You can still build nodes, they just won't take in any res. The nodes can be built just to deny the enemy of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problems with the problems:
Problem #1: So, you're saying that aliens getting less res is an imbalance... in the *aliens* favour? Besides, balance isn't just a matter of both getting equal amounts; in all probability, the two teams are not equally res-dependant.
Problem #2: Umm, couldn't the same also be said about the costs of Hives, DCs, MCs and SCs? Or do the costs of these chambers and their upgrades increase?
Problem #3: The problem is that this is a little... counter-intuative. Seeing as we're talking about a both-team change anyway, I don't see any point to adding that.
But nonetheless, well done for a thoughtful post, you obviously put a lot into those ideas rather than just 'OMG, ALIENS SHUD HAV MOOR RES!!!!11', so kudos to you! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding to what you've already said:
1: This isn't a good solution because ALL aliens are getting res from it. Now if all the aliens are munching marines every so often this COMPOUNDS things rather than making it better. More aliens will have more res than one alien having most of it. Now this doesn't sound too bad, but when you consider that the good skulk will only be delayed slightly. However, gorges and other aliens evolutions will be sped up. This will lead to an increased amount of chambers, higher evolutions (overall) and probably res.
Forlorns idea completely fails to account the REAL problem. The fact that aliens can end up with 6/1 RT's in the opening SECONDS of a game. If they defend these well enough this is the instant economic advantage that is smashing marines in scrimms and on some publics already.
This simply put fails to address this problem.
2: Same goes for chambers. More aliens=more potential gorges=all 3 chambers quicker. And they can still put up RT's as well. There is nothing here that is even remotely a problem. Marines are still going to get thumped against relatively competent aliens.
3: This is just ridiculous, contrary to any logic whatsoever and ultimately confusing.
Plus it is just not needed. If you have a 4 vs 4 then all anyone could do is just build 4 nodes and turret/oc them to death. Nobody would bother trying to get the others as there simply wouldn't be any point. It's just silly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1) R4K is in the alien favour, the res system for the aliens was made for a reason, R4K ruins that reason. Also the bigger the game is the harder it is for the aliens, something I dont think is fair.
#2) the keyword is "potential" remember, they'll all get the same res as with 3 people than with 12.
You'll also need a very good skulker to put the hive up (really a big IF, because people are rather saving for an onos) either that or you'll wait 15 minutes getting to the 45 res, and you're probably the one getting nodes and chambers at the start <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't get this really. Res for kills isn't the problem when you have 6 RT's straight off the bat. That gives EVERYONE fast res and the marines cannot then keep up with alien tech. The res for kills system merely serves to just compound things.
For number 2, most alien teams are figuring out that more gorges=more chambers and res=win. I see this happening more and more on servers now. It isn't so much as "potential" as "who". Also many are realising that yes, hive 1 onos/fade IS pointless.
2. Your arms lab unproportionality applies lots of other places as well, why make changes to just the arms lab? Shouldn't hives cost more on big teams, seeing as more aliens get the benefit of new abilities? Should primal scream energy cost change depending on how many aliens get boosted by it? 2 HAs with welders are more than twice as effective as 1 HA with welder. Should HA cost increase based on the number of welders you already have in play? The point is there are lots of flat rate or non-linear cost vs effectiveness things in this game, and focusing on just the arms lab is a little silly.
3. Dont play small games. I dont believe NS is even intended to be balanced at the 2v2 level.
I think some number tweaking and conditionals can fix things adequately. It's definitely not time to do major revising. If NS is ported (or rather rewritten) for HL 2, fundamental issues can be revisited.
In big games, individual res is worth more to aliens.
In big games, arms labs are worth more to marines.
Notice something here? In big games, each side has a different type of advantage.
Also, the only way your math works for skulks is assuming that the skulks don't choose any upgrades.
The whole intention of getting res for kills was to reward skilled alien players so they could evolve faster. This also makes sure noobs can't save up for onos the whole game only to die 30 seconds after evolving. It encourages them to kill. If res is shared with the whole team, you will have people camping the hive while most of the team is going out and killing and dying. The hive camper is rewarded extra res, and doesn't have to worry about upgrades like the fellow aliens that are going out and dying in the battles. I have found the best way to get res is to go gorge, drop a res node and build it. After the node is up, just evolve back to skulk, because getting res as a gorge takes too long if you aren't getting kills. (Which you most likely aren't.) As a skulk you can usually get a good amount of res in a matter of a few minutes.
Another point is scrimming as aliens. It is vital that you get res for kills. You need some people to gorge early, and others to stay skulk so they can get the early kills so they will have res later in the game. If res was shared throughout the team it would probably work, but I think the aliens might expand slower because you will just have dedicated gorges like in 1.0x.
i don't think it will work....your ideas are too abstract and don't take into account a million other factors
the fact that you can manage to fit a <i>complete</i> analysis under 3 headers is also amusing
perhaps spend your time on producing your own well balanced game instead of creating a page-long post claiming that you've completely analysed the game in less than a week
maybe play it a bit more?? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
i don't think it will work....your ideas are too abstract and don't take into account a million other factors
the fact that you can manage to fit a <i>complete</i> analysis under 3 headers is also amusing
perhaps spend your time on producing your own well balanced game instead of creating a page-long post claiming that you've completely analysed the game in less than a week
maybe play it a bit more?? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this not sound familiar? If you can't back up anything that you say, or are too lazy to back up anything that you say, then there's absolutely no reason for you to post anything. There is no reason to post this kind of inane derogatory nonsense.
Shotgun rushes SUCK! Even with a good skulk team, when those 8 nubs with big guns come down, ONE is bound to hit you SOME TIME! They fire at... what, 10000 damage every 10 seconds? Then a 15 second reload! OUCH! That hive is goin down mighty fast!
In short, a good marine team vs a good alien team = marine's pwn the early game, alien pwn the mid-early game, and the rest is a stalemate!
HA/HMG vs fade = dead fade (unless he knows how to use blink! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hmm... I have seen (and lost) many games where marines were in one hive, and had 2 t=facs, 1 arms lab, 1 proto lab, 2 IP's, a PG to their outer res node (Ill go over that outpost in a moment) 25 turrets, lvl 3 of everything, HA's, JP's, upgraded armory, and just CAMPED their hive!!!
Their outpost had 1 CC, 1 PG, 1 armory, 1 t-fac, and 20 turrets!!!!
Aliens could NOT break through this! Even after 2 onos and my "ninja fade" went in (I blinked behind the labs and took em both out b4 the com popped me with a shotty) the 2 onos (with carapace) lasted abotu 10 seconds against all those turrets... enough time to run in, get 2-3 hits, and TRY (in vain) to escape to a DC. Even after I had both the proto lab and the arms labs down, those turrets kept the base alive! Even with 2 res ndoes, the mariens just sat there camping till they got the labs and upgrades back!
HMGs = weed whackers!
3 GL's = **** door spammage (but the gun looks SO COOL)
My suggestion for this is:
Make metabolize do 2 things:
One: heals 20 HP AND 10 armor at the same time, THEN does 20 armor!
TWO: Prevents all damage from structures for 5 seconds (and uses 50% of the energy)
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings)
I counted, and it takes 10 direct hits from acid rocket to kill a turret! That's a long time when you have 2 HA/GL's and 1 JP/HMG looking for you!
To help the marines push out:
Erm, can you make the HMG cone tighter? It's impossible to kill a metabolizing fade from more than 10 feet away right now... (or maybe just lag?)
Also, make an LMG clip upgrade or something. I LOVE the LMG, but it needs a makeover...
And the shotgun... erm... *pshaw* what can I say? Reduce the RoF by 25% (back to 1.04 I think) and increase the damage dealt by 5 points. Also, make it an advanced armory weapon (or make it require an arms lab at least to stop the g@y shotgun rushes at start)
As for the JP, GOOD JOB! I love it! Still can fly, just no stayin up there!
Can you boost the onos carapace back to 350? It goes down VERY fast to a shotgunner!
This is all, and it may be a bit much.
Flayra, chow down! Love dat game!!!
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm... doesn't that mean that, at 1 hive, the Fade wouldn't have any attacks? Just blink and Metabolize?
Kinda ruins the 2.0 ability to use any aliens at any hive level.
<b>Shotguns rushes keep aliens in check so they won't expand too fast and leave their hive undefended.</b>
HA/HMG vs fade = dead fade (unless he knows how to use blink!
<b>Depends on player skill</b>
My suggestion for this is:
Make metabolize do 2 things:
One: heals 20 HP AND 10 armor at the same time, THEN does 20 armor!
<b>I think its fine how it is, its not meant to be used during combat</b>
TWO: Prevents all damage from structures for 5 seconds (and uses 50% of the energy)
<b>Thats a little powerful since it would apply to electric res too.</b>
Also, push metabolize to a hive 1, move swipe to hive 2 (too strong for hive 1 melee) and make acid stay at hive 3 (or, replace it/make it do dbl vs buildings)
<b>How if the fade suposed to attack before he gets 2 hives? blink at them?</b>
I counted, and it takes 10 direct hits from acid rocket to kill a turret! That's a long time when you have 2 HA/GL's and 1 JP/HMG looking for you!
<b>acid rocket isn't the turret counter, bile bomb is</b>
Forlorn is correct: one alien resource is worth more than one marine resource. Not just because those RFK resources represent such a substantial boost in an individual's resources, but because those res can manifest themselves in far more powerful ways.
RFK does not just come from ramboing. THis is a really common misconception that I see heaps of people stateing every day in this forum. The fact is that groups of skulks working together can and DO ambush marine groups moving to locations on the map. Skulks also very often "suicide rush" a marine group, hoping to pick off just one person before dying. Not only does that one skulk get a rush of res, that marine group is weakened. So often I see marine groups making their way across the map and being picked off one by one. This is partizan warfare, exactly what the aliens are supposed to be doing, and there's nothing wrong with it. The thing is that even when marines move as groups, some if not all of them can and do die. and by dieing they fuel the individual alien resource flow.
Now looking at RFK on both sides, it becomes quickly apparent that good skulks can unbalance the game quite easily, whilst marines have a tough time combatting this. Skulk x is a pretty "elite" 5k|_|1k, he notches up 10 marine kills in the first couple of minutes. He's now sitting on around 50 res because he didn't temp at the start. How can he use that res?
- He can Fade. A good choice, because he can now take on groups of up to 4 LA marines with little difficulty. This fuels his res flow even faster. Better yet, any res nodes that the com has managed to electrify he can now take down with some gorge support.
- He can put a hive up. Another excellent choice. Soon afterwards the alien team will benefit as a whole from his actions. Gorges will soon be able to decimate marine defensive structures, skulks will become even more deadlier with leap, the lerks can now spam umbra helping negate many marine weapons, any Fades can now metabolise, allowing them to work free from hives, DCs, or gorges. Any early oni as well will have stomp, which increases the onos' power 5-fold. Better still, the team now has access to a new chamber.
- He can put up some chambers or OCs. Again, a good choice. This benefits the team overall, and can help seal off strataigic points. Creating forward healing bases or cloaking stations helps his team-mates out and fuels the res of his team's killing.
- He can keep saving for an onos. Whilst not the best choice maybe, if Skulk x continues his form he could be there quite quickly. The introduction of an early onos can be devestating to a marine team, as now virtually any marine outpost is vunerable.
Ok, now the flipside, the marines. Marine Squad 1 is a pretty fine squad, top of their class and able to choose which skulk eyeball to aim at from 300m. This group in the first couple of minutes applies excellent pressure on some alien res points and notches up 10 kills. The marine team has gained around 20 - 25 res. How can this be best used?
- Research. This is probably the best area to invest in. That res could be used to put an arms lab up, or if one is already up, it could buy a weapon upgrade. It could be used to contribute to a motion tracking investment also, or to upgrade the armoury.
- Construction. Another good area, the com could build a new res node or electrify a current one. He could build a forward observatory or a tf and one or two turrets. However, anything the com constructs is at risk from a gorge assult or a Fade attack, and unless the alien team has been very lax on kills, there's gonna be a second hive up very soon, which makes all outposts vunerable.
- Equipment. This CAN work, but it's probably a bad area. 2 shotguns can boost a marine team, but light armours are still very vunerable to ambush. This could net the com a good investment, but more likely the shotgunners will only be able to manage a few kills before being overwhelmed. Still, this can work, but it's not a concrete investment.
Now in a game where Skulk X and Marine Squad 1 are both playing, at the 5 minute mark of the game the marines are already in serious trouble. They've most likely managed to get lvl 1 weapons, but Skulk x is now a Fade and has been destroying group efforts to reach vital locations. OR A second hive is up, and gorges are bilebombing the com's 3 electrified RTs, and Squad 1 can't be everywhere at once. OR Squad 1 now has 2 shotgunners, and whilst these tough talking grunts have notched up some kills, they are quickly overwhelmed by an alien team that has constructed sensory stations across the map. The com has tried scanner sweeping, but his lone observatory quickly runs out of power, and Skulk x and his comrades rush in for the kill.
Bear in mind that the above scenarios happen all the time: everyone has met Skulk X or Marine Squad 1. The differance between what the 2 sides can do with that early res is striking, and the aliens defenitly have the advantage from it. Note however, that in a game where only Skulk x was playing, the alien team has virtually won already: the advantages gained from his kills are just too great. In a game where Marine Squad 1 is only playing, victory is by no means assured: partizan tactics and suicide attacks mean that no matter how good Marine Squad 1 is they will take casualties, not to mention the rest of the marine team. These casualties translate into a much more deadly alien side much faster than the marines can match.
In it's current form, the simple truth is that RFK is unbalancing the game, not to mention focusing both sides into a gameplay style that is hardly conductive to teamplay. Already the cries of "KILL-STEALER!" echo across alien teams, and RFK simply encourages the aliens to focus on a very individualistic style of play as opposed to working together. Changes that are coming into the game in the betas still try to work around RFK instead of changing RFK or better yet simply doing away with it all together. NS, which was always supposed to be about the stratagic control of resources, is instead turning into a CS-style grab for kills.
The simplest method to rebalance RFK would be to spread alien res for kills out across all the players, but this could still produce problems as those res will still be so much faster than standard alien res flow from RTs. In the end it may be that RFK is impossible to balance into the game, and whilst it remains gameplay will certainly be continuing to suffer.
Well, I've sorta left this thread behind a little, but I really must adress this terrible misconception:
You are correct. In every RTS upgrading units can be done always at the same cost. This is because in an RTS you can change <b>how many units you have</b>, and <b>all races/sides in the game can get unit upgrades whenever they feel</b>, and none of this leads to imbalance because everyone can do it. In a FPSRTS, your amounts of units always stay the same.
This imbalance is so obvious I'm amazed others can't see it.
What is better on a 12v12? Upgrading all of your marines for 20 res or giving one of them an HMG?
By the same token, on a 4v4, giving out an HMG is much much more benifical than giving all 4 of your marines +10% to their upgrades.
In a RTSFPS, you <b>cannot</b> change how many units you have! This is why the arms lab is unfair! It's pricey to a small team, and way overpowered to a large one!
It's not like I can "build" more marines to take advantage of my upgrades. The imbalance caused by the arms lab on large servers is painfully obvious.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've neglected to look at the whole.
In big games, individual res is worth more to aliens.
In big games, arms labs are worth more to marines.
Notice something here? In big games, each side has a different type of advantage.
Also, the only way your math works for skulks is assuming that the skulks don't choose any upgrades.
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Wow! Two imbalances! That must make everything right!
Notice how in my main post, alien R4K is listed as the #1 problem. And the arms lab is #2. Alien R4K is much stronger than anything the arms lab can spit out.
If you fix R4K for the aliens, then the arms lab on large servers will cause lots of troubles for aliens. That is why it needs to be fixed.
It seems I've been looking at the big picture, and you have not.
thats just not true. I lost count of how many times I have attacked say 3-4 marines setting up a rt(with 1-2 building it) as a skulk with no ups and killed them all and the rt and the reinforcements.
AMEN. I mean, sure, the game isn't perfectly balanced; everyone sees that the aliens win more often than the marines -- but not THAT much more often. a lot of thought has gone into this mod. the two teams are not supposed to play similarly. I see super-skulks who get 6 kills in a row about as often as I see super-commanders who secure 4 res nodes and a hive in a row. the mod is very enjoyable; there's no point in reworking the resource system. the minor tweaks they've been doing in the 2.01 releases are balancing the game.
I don't even agree that 1 alien res is worth more than 1 marine res; in fact, I always thought of it as being the opposite. if 6 aliens and 1 commander each get 1 res for every tick of a RT, then in a 6v6 game 1 marine res is more-or-less worth 6 alien res if spent right. when you think of it that way, 1 marine killing ONE skulk and getting 3 res is really worth 3 * 6 = 18 alien res... because that 3 res is spent helping the entire team, either defending or upgrading... rather than helping a lone skulk.
think about it: if that 1 skulk kills 6 marines and gets enough res to build a hive, that's 6 to 18 res that the rest of his team DOESN'T have, to spend helping defend said hive. if he chooses to spend his res to go fade early instead, he has to deal with 6 marines, ideally moving in a group, and he'll get mown right the heck down, losing 50 res.
Play another server?
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Play another server... Your crazy, how could this solve this problem? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In other words, unlike a standard RTS where units are all pretty similar (if not the same), the vastly different abilities and even functioning of each team makes it so you can't simply isolate single features.
Let's look at what spreading alien RFK will do to the marines.
As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently.
Now, let's look at the armory.. it has more effect in larger games than smaller ones, this is true. This is also something for a good commander to be aware of. Of course larger games also mean larger alien teams, which mean that the marines actually need those widespread benefits more, simply because a commander is only one person, and the effort of micromanagement goes up almost exponentially as the number of people go up.
Also, larger alien teams mean more aliens available for early rushes.. which means you need those upgrade sooner. Increasing the cost of it as the team sizes go up serves only to doom the marines, as repeated waves of skulks hit the base, and if each skulk manages to cut down only one marine before dying, then he's set to get an upgrade and perhaps be able to take out two next time. This means that by the time your increased research cost can be afforded, aliens have already fully upgraded themselves and are considering going lerk/fade, and an early lerk near marine base is *bad news*, especially when marines are busy trying to save for upgrades so aren't able to be handing out the HA and GLs willy nilly. (All this is assuming the RFK isn't distributed. If it is, they've also got second hive up.)
Now, you can look further into these situations and see that there are things that balance them the other way as well, but this just goes to prove my point.. you can't just pick out a couple of things and look at them and say "Here's the problem", because you'd be wrong.
The problem is a mix of a bunch of interconnecting factors. That being said there might be a couple of things we can change that essentially fix it, but I don't think your ideas are what will do it.
Dynamic upgrade costs? Only necessary if you are going to do it to both sides. FORGET IT.
I am not qualified to make a comment on small NS games. Much like the OP was not qualified to make a post.
As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently.
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It's not static defense that we marines worry about. The problem is Skulk X putting the hive up within 2 minutes of the game starting thanks to RFK. The problem is Skulk X going onos 5 minutes into the game before the marines have a chance to tech sufficiently to deal with an onos, again thanks to RFK. Distributing RFK over the whole team means that yes, you might face more stuff, but LATER. Marines can deal with just about anything the aliens can throw at them (except 3rd hive) provided that they have sufficient tech. What is currently happening is that the aliens are teching so ungodly fast (current record for 2nd hive up 2:41) thanks to RFK (and very fast expansion but that's a differant matter) that the marines are overwhelmed before they can even get close to the tech required to match 2 hive aliens.
You're probably right: overall the aliens would end up in the better position from distributed RFK. But they reach it LATER, when the marines have a chance to deal with it. Personally I'd rather see RFK just go; it's hurting gameplay and balance, but that's another thread and another debate.