Think Of The Children!

Tink · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">your life now has value...</div> The kharaa owe a lot to the marines at the moment, as marines unwittingly help them win. I tend to play a very unselfconsious game as a grunt, my life is for the team, so I will spend it if needs be. Fortunately I also Comm and I can see that many of my habits from 1.04 aren't merely hindering my play, but helping the aliens! <span style='color:white'><b>I believe most aliens will agree that up to a third of their res by the time it has become useful comes from killing marines</b>.</span> In 1.04 a lone marine scout could be invaluable, with 2.0 bounties he's a traitor as he helps the enemy. A lot of the time marine advances are too rushed, too hasty. Previously (in 1.04) you could hit a trap and simply be in a better informed position for the next assault. Now with 2.0 you have just given an alien a helping hand towards that second hive or onos. Now I realise that many feel this is balanced, as you get paid for killing aliens too, but your bounty goes into a collective pool, whereas the aliens tends to be concentrated into several key players. This has even more serious reprecussions for the Comm, keeping your men alive was never more important. Unfortunately, it will often be uneconomically sound to do so. Since spamming 10 meds to stop the kharaa from getting 1-3 is stupid, its up to the Comms and the Grunts to make sure they simply don't get into these situations. I realise that many players feel pride towards the way they selflessly give for the team, but the game has changed, your life now has value. Give unstintingly to your team, but you need to be thinking harder before you give your life to the aliens. All the best - Tink

MEShootHere · August 2003

Well ehm yes but don't rine kills also give them res? I think they get something for every skulk/whatnot killed.
If this is not the case, ignore this post.
If it IS the case, I'd say a good squad of 4 rines rack in a LOT more res than they give to the aliens for munching on'em.
Just my 2c

ME!

Tink · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tink @ Aug 5 2003, 06:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Now I realise that many feel this is balanced, as you get paid for killing aliens too, but your bounty goes into a collective pool, whereas the aliens tends to be concentrated into several key players.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
forums make you feel so appreciated <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

gc_philleh · August 2003

Both sides do get res for kills yeah, but even so its a good situation, encourages team work more and adds a greater threat to dieing.
You will always think if that skulk kills me ill be giving them an extra OC or something.

Tink · August 2003

Here are several reasons why Marines need to value their lives more than aliens;

<span style='color:white'>A marine that survives an encounter but was hurt will cost his team 1 in 3 times, as his bounty doesn't cover the cost of the medpack he receives.( I also suspect that you are even LESS likely to recieve 3 res bounty...)</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens heal for free...</span>

<span style='color:white'>A marine will also need ammo, even armouries aren't free.</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens reload for free...</span>

<span style='color:white'>Marine buildings are expensive, and the slower marine movement means that support is less likely to arrive in time should you wander off and die</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens are faster than marines, and do not rely on a comm to become aware of where their support is needed. Alien buildings are cheaper than their marine counterparts</span>

<span style='color:white'>The sum total is that on average marine res for kills only makes the kills overall cost even out</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens only cost are in upgrades, many skulks no longer take these, thus they save straight to that second hive or onos</span>

StoatBringer · August 2003

Marines should always stick together when leaving the base. Two guns are better than one.

Jabba_The_Hunt · August 2003

TBH, I actually like it with the aliens being overpowered (although I'm not entirely convinced they are), it adds a really scarey atmosphere to them, you spend a lot of time hoping you dont come into contact with the aliens, before a certain point in the commanders plans.

Jummeh · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tink @ Aug 5 2003, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here are several reasons why Marines need to value their lives more than aliens;

<span style='color:white'>A marine that survives an encounter but was hurt will cost his team 1 in 3 times, as his bounty doesn't cover the cost of the medpack he receives.( I also suspect that you are even LESS likely to recieve 3 res bounty...)</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens heal for free...</span>

<span style='color:white'>A marine will also need ammo, even armouries aren't free.</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens reload for free...</span>

<span style='color:white'>Marine buildings are expensive, and the slower marine movement means that support is less likely to arrive in time should you wander off and die</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens are faster than marines, and do not rely on a comm to become aware of where their support is needed. Alien buildings are cheaper than their marine counterparts</span>

<span style='color:white'>The sum total is that on average marine res for kills only makes the kills overall cost even out</span>
<span style='color:red'>Aliens only cost are in upgrades, many skulks no longer take these, thus they save straight to that second hive or onos</span> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You cannot compare the marines and aliens like that.

Marine upgrades may be more expensive than alien upgrades BUT they are for the entire team. Not one person and the marine gets the bonus everytime they spawn where as the alien has to upgrade everytime. The fact that marine buildings are more expensive is balanced by the huge advantage of pooled res.

Even though the entire alien team can start off with say 160 res, they are spread out throughout the entire team so they can't imediatly construct 3 hives.

EDIT: typos

Tink · August 2003

Actually the point is thatmarine buildings take more res to replace, and support is slower to arrive... I already know they are more expensive to balance out the pooled res. Finally I haven't even mentioned marine upgrades <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

elchinesetourist · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tink @ Aug 5 2003, 06:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The kharaa owe a lot to the marines at the moment, as marines unwittingly help them win. I tend to play a very unselfconsious game as a grunt, my life is for the team, so I will spend it if needs be. Fortunately I also Comm and I can see that many of my habits from 1.04 aren't merely hindering my play, but helping the aliens! <span style='color:white'><b>I believe most aliens will agree that up to a third of their res by the time it has become useful comes from killing marines</b>.</span> In 1.04 a lone marine scout could be invaluable, with 2.0 bounties he's a traitor as he helps the enemy. A lot of the time marine advances are too rushed, too hasty. Previously (in 1.04) you could hit a trap and simply be in a better informed position for the next assault. Now with 2.0 you have just given an alien a helping hand towards that second hive or onos. Now I realise that many feel this is balanced, as you get paid for killing aliens too, but your bounty goes into a collective pool, whereas the aliens tends to be concentrated into several key players. This has even more serious reprecussions for the Comm, keeping your men alive was never more important. Unfortunately, it will often be uneconomically sound to do so. Since spamming 10 meds to stop the kharaa from getting 1-3 is stupid, its up to the Comms and the Grunts to make sure they simply don't get into these situations. I realise that many players feel pride towards the way they selflessly give for the team, but the game has changed, your life now has value. Give unstintingly to your team, but you need to be thinking harder before you give your life to the aliens. All the best - Tink  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I agree, I hate that ****

I loved to rambo in 1.04

I've come to be more reserved with medpaks, giving only 1 unless that player somehow survives and keeps pwning

I hate it when people ignore your orders and keep rushing out with their entire squad who likewise are ignoring your orders. They even string out to die 1by1.

I've been thinking of an early shotgun/welder squad to be my main offensive force; ideally this will minimize marine casualties while maximizing alien casualties.

n4s7y · August 2003

I'm usually the top of the list as kharaa (they removed the scoreboard, but the ranking is still there), and I usually get 30+ more res then others due to those dumb rambos (or squads that move in a clumped pack).

Another way marines help aliens is when they go alone as HAs. One game, the marine had managed to gain a huge squad of f 6 or 7 HAs, to our one onos. However, our gorge kept building OCs, and there was always a cocky marine or two who'd chase after us. And then, the reinforcements kept coming to use 1 by 1 by 1, so the HA squad slowly dwindled. By the time they'd gotten the first hive, there were 2 of them left. After finished them, the game was ours, as we had taken all of their res towers by then.

Tink · August 2003

It does seem a pity that it doesn't help to rambo. Two man HMG JP last ditch hive assaults don't only waste res when they fail anymore, but in addition it helps the enemy team out. <span style='color:white'>Its that simple.</span> Many cases where the marines get kicked its because guys get exhasperated and go out on vendettas chasing aliens. Yum Yum, thanks for the res... Personally I think its great that a poor marine assault helps the aliens, it ensures that only good teams win. In most RTS a poor attack will leave you open for retaliation, this is the NS equivalent.. Give it a week or two and hopefully this will start to become a common conception. When the Grunts are watching their res as hard as the Comm should be, the marines will start kicking out. - Tink

Kazyras · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tink @ Aug 6 2003, 01:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Personally I think its great that a poor marine assault helps the aliens, it ensures that only good teams win.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It also makes comebacks much harder than they need to be.

The more you're winning, the more res you receive, and consequently the easier it is to keep on winning. This creates a nasty slippery slope where simple mistakes in the beginning degenerate into unsurmountable obstacles later on. Not only are you punished for messing up an assault for losing res and temporarily leaving the other team more control of the map (which, if the other team takes the opportunity, is punishment enough), you are also GIVING them res, boosting their effectiveness. This widens the chasm between both teams and makes the game very unforgiving.

It's also why stalemates are so frequent now. When marines are turtling hard, they won't die much but and they'll kill a lot, thus receiving more res, for more turrets, for more kills, for more res... ad nauseum.

MrKNifey · August 2003

As long as you kill at least 3 skulks when you rambo, it's all gravy when you die.....

That's the way I see it anyway, might not be everyone else's opinion.

But if you kill 3 skulks, you're guranteed to get at least 3 res, which is equal to the possible amount a skulk gets from killing you.....in addition, you also slow down the kharra some.

Tink · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 6 2003, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> As long as you kill at least 3 skulks when you rambo, it's all gravy when you die.....  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Lets do some math. Lets be really kind, and assume you get 3 res for every kill and the aliens only get 1 in return, poor buggers.

<span style='color:white'>now you have earned 9 res</span>

You cannot kill 3 skulks with your starting ammo, so you stock up before you leave, that has a res cost. Just being able to spawn requires a spawn portal, that costs too. Suppose we call both of them 1 (base cost and cost to keep those buildings alive).
<span style='color:white'>now you have earned 8 res</span>

It is unlikely that you meet all these aliens at the same time, if you did you certainly wouldn't get your 3 kills...
So lets suppose you are good and only average 1 medpack after each kill to return to full health... (this assumes that the comm isn't watching over you trying to keep you alive for the fourth alien that kills you... or spamming packs just to "keep you alive")
<span style='color:white'>now you have earned 2 res</span>

And if you need any ammo while you are out there, say 1 ammo box...
<span style='color:white'>now you have earned 0 res</span>
<span style='color:red'>one aliens has earned 1 res</span>

And this assumes that you recieve full res...

This isn't only about the direct correlation of your kills and the alien ones... You have an indirect value of your life now, jeez, the above assumes you are a mere vanilla marine, what if you actually had been given a weapon? Marines need to try to live up to the value that the Comm invests in them, even vanilla marines have costs. The conclusion of this is that even keeping one vanilla ramboing marine alive is uneconomical, so why the hell should the Comm (in charge of managing and obtaining res) do it? It is a slippery slope, causing an initial mistake to cripple games. It is up to Comms and marines to size up their attacks better, and to make damn sure that they work. - Tink

Majin · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tink @ Aug 5 2003, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually the point is thatmarine buildings take more res to replace, and support is slower to arrive... I already know they are more expensive to balance out the pooled res. Finally I haven't even mentioned marine upgrades <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
What do you think Phase gates are for?
Slow to arrive, I don't think the speed of light is all that slow!
Your Logic is flawed.

A Vulcan would slap you in the face! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

<i>EDIT: Fixed a typographical error and added the funny pun!</i>

Silver_Fox · August 2003

We all know what you get when you assume, so please, dont.

Clint · August 2003

Where are you taking us with all of this? I'm just a tad bit curious.

TickTock · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (elchinesetourist @ Aug 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I loved to rambo in 1.04

I hate it when people ignore your orders and keep rushing out with their entire squad who likewise are ignoring your orders. They even string out to die 1by1.
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Hey kids, can you spot the discrepancy? ...

MMZ_Torak · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Aug 6 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (elchinesetourist @ Aug 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I loved to rambo in 1.04

I hate it when people ignore your orders and keep rushing out with their entire squad who likewise are ignoring your orders. They even string out to die 1by1.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Hey kids, can you spot the discrepancy? ...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
lol my thoughts exactly.

Kazyras · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Aug 6 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Aug 6 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (elchinesetourist @ Aug 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I loved to rambo in 1.04

I hate it when people ignore your orders and keep rushing out with their entire squad who likewise are ignoring your orders. They even string out to die 1by1.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Hey kids, can you spot the discrepancy? ... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
lol my thoughts exactly.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't see any. In 1.04 on my regular server, I was often *ordered* by my comm to go rambo while most of the rest of the team worked on something else.

Like I've said countless times, just because you're not humping another marine's leg doesn't mean you're not accomplishing something for the team.

Tink · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Aug 6 2003, 11:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> We all know what you get when you assume, so please, dont. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I thought it was nice of me to assume that he was a good player too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

The reason for this post is to point out to the marines that the reasons why many pubs are alien dominated at the moment is due to the switch to a more res orientated game. I was "trying" to point out that this percieved imbalance isn't down to a borked res model. Individual marines (and comms) are now required to think of the res invested in these troops. Marines are short on res to expand because of a perception that "so long as I kill 3 skulks I'm doing my team a great service". This is why marines have a percieved "slow" early game. - Tink

MMZ_Torak · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Aug 7 2003, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Aug 6 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Aug 6 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (elchinesetourist @ Aug 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I loved to rambo in 1.04

I hate it when people ignore your orders and keep rushing out with their entire squad who likewise are ignoring your orders. They even string out to die 1by1.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Hey kids, can you spot the discrepancy? ... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
lol my thoughts exactly.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't see any. In 1.04 on my regular server, I was often *ordered* by my comm to go rambo while most of the rest of the team worked on something else.

Like I've said countless times, just because you're not humping another marine's leg doesn't mean you're not accomplishing something for the team.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
"Rambo" carries a negative connotation. Rambo generally means running around with your own agenda and not following orders. Once your com tells you to rambo you are following orders. If you decide to Rambo, and do not heed the orders given you by the com, you are not helping, period. If you are <i> that</i> good of a shot, think about how much you could help your team by guarding people trying to secure a hive.

Tink · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 6 2003, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What do you think Phase gates are for?
Slow to arrive, I don't think the speed of light is all that slow!
Your Logic is flawed.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
If you were to put phase gates at every resource node it would probably take you even longer to get there... Think before you post please.

Think Of The Children!

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