The State Of D Chambers
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Almost as "set" as they were in 1.04</div> First let me say that I love the balance between Movements and Sensories; I think they both make great first chambers, though it's a little irritating how insistant people are on taking sensories most of the time. I suspect this might subside when commanders are more often capable of countering them(last alien loss I saw the commander put an obs down while they were seiging our hive and they completely devastated us afterwards).
Anyway, I'm becoming a little concerned with the current status of D chambers. I certainly don't think they're underpowered, but it seems that people are almost as insistant on how to use D chambers now as they were in 1.04. The sens/move changes were of course meant to counteract that, and to an extent they did... Now what I see is that D chambers are widely hated as a first chamber and gorges are often shouted down for dropping them first(which they usually deserve since they never bothered asking, but still). Personally I don't mind them too much, but they're just generally substandard in comparison to the other two and it really shouldn't be that way. Their relatively small payoff for skulks is what usually makes them so loathed as the first chamber choice.
More than that, though, is the mentality that D chambers <u>have</u> to be used as the second chamber. If someone drops movements or sensories second and D wasn't first chamber, the team will completely flip out on them. The going argument is that Onoses are almost completely useless mid-late game without D chambers, and that's really true much more than it should be. Gone are the days of DMS. Now the only widely accepted orders on pubs are SDM or MDS, which is a shame because it's just not a whole lot more varied and interesting than before. I can't speak for whether or not this is justified, but it's certainly beginning to seem that way.
If you ask me, D chambers should be made a tad more useful for skulks, and Onoses made a little less dependant on them, and they would be balanced. A fix to skulk regen so it heals a reasonable amount of HP(10-20?) instead of a percentage of their very small health would be fantastic. Not sure what can be done to Onoses to let them survive without Ds in the endgame, without increasing their power with Ds...
If the Vets/PTs have found a good way to viably use Ds first or third, then by all means indulge me because I'm curious. I just haven't seen much reason to break the mold in pub games so far.
Anyway, I'm becoming a little concerned with the current status of D chambers. I certainly don't think they're underpowered, but it seems that people are almost as insistant on how to use D chambers now as they were in 1.04. The sens/move changes were of course meant to counteract that, and to an extent they did... Now what I see is that D chambers are widely hated as a first chamber and gorges are often shouted down for dropping them first(which they usually deserve since they never bothered asking, but still). Personally I don't mind them too much, but they're just generally substandard in comparison to the other two and it really shouldn't be that way. Their relatively small payoff for skulks is what usually makes them so loathed as the first chamber choice.
More than that, though, is the mentality that D chambers <u>have</u> to be used as the second chamber. If someone drops movements or sensories second and D wasn't first chamber, the team will completely flip out on them. The going argument is that Onoses are almost completely useless mid-late game without D chambers, and that's really true much more than it should be. Gone are the days of DMS. Now the only widely accepted orders on pubs are SDM or MDS, which is a shame because it's just not a whole lot more varied and interesting than before. I can't speak for whether or not this is justified, but it's certainly beginning to seem that way.
If you ask me, D chambers should be made a tad more useful for skulks, and Onoses made a little less dependant on them, and they would be balanced. A fix to skulk regen so it heals a reasonable amount of HP(10-20?) instead of a percentage of their very small health would be fantastic. Not sure what can be done to Onoses to let them survive without Ds in the endgame, without increasing their power with Ds...
If the Vets/PTs have found a good way to viably use Ds first or third, then by all means indulge me because I'm curious. I just haven't seen much reason to break the mold in pub games so far.
Comments
For first chamber, Defence is still easily as viable as Movement and Sensory. There is balance here. However you are right on the observation of Onos being rather underpowered without D by the second hive. Hopefully this is something that will change.
M
Def is most likely useful as a second chamber because the marines have heavy weapons by now, and the extra cara on a fade can do wonders. Also as its mid game, so oni will like it, since no one who just spent 100 res to go onos wants to get fragged by 5 LMG marines. Sensories as a first are useful for demoralizing (see: **** them off) since after you get destroyed by a couple of skulks in Nano-Gridlock who pop out of nowhere a few times in a row, you kind of lose your edge. It also hides the hive, which is useful since if the marines just make a quick scan of the area, they overlook the missing geyser of nanites and shooting the spot where the hive is to check. Movements are more of a luxury chamber, thus last. Silence is really not that useful, just for having some fun with the marines. Andrenline is for convience, so you don't have to take cover behind a crate to recharge your energy so often. Celerity is also nice for slow moving creatures (onos) or to abuse speed (skulks, which really don't need it as they are pretty fast already). Not really required.
Well, that's my two cents about how I'd take it as a gorge. Think it works out pretty nicely, actually. Oh, and a finaly point, speed is everything. If you have 50 res and your team still has only one hive, do them a favor and put the hive up. You'll get the res for oni later.
EDIT: Added thoughts on 1.04 cara and replaced "changed" with "fixed".
For first chamber, Defence is still easily as viable as Movement and Sensory. There is balance here. However you are right on the observation of Onos being rather underpowered without D by the second hive. Hopefully this is something that will change.
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Defense is hardly viable. Sensory lets you cloak; given enough sensories, you can run around the map completely cloaked, and then there's Scent of Fear, which is far too useful to pass up. Movements let you run around in complete silence, or to be some sort of hyper skulk.
What does defense give you as a first chamber?
A redemption ability that works half the time - if that - ,limited healing range, and carapace that doesn't do much to protect you and makes you run slower.
Sorry, folks, the new chamber order is usually SDM. Redeeming onoses are simply too valuable to pass up.
A redemption ability that works half the time - if that - ,limited healing range, and carapace that doesn't do much to protect you and makes you run slower.
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Dopple, you obviously haven't tried redemption in 2.0. And carapace no longer slows you down.
Zek asked what the PTs and Vets used for D as a viable first chamber. I told you what we do, use it as you see fit.
M
A redemption ability that works half the time - if that - ,limited healing range, and carapace that doesn't do much to protect you and makes you run slower.
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Dopple, you obviously haven't tried redemption in 2.0. And carapace no longer slows you down.
Zek asked what the PTs and Vets used for D as a viable first chamber. I told you what we do, use it as you see fit.
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I have tried redemption in 2.0. While it's a godsend for Onos, skulks are a completely different matter - wasn't your original post addressing that?
Also, are you sure carapace doesn't slow you down? I heard from Khaim that it still does.
With all due respect for a playtester, maybe he has. I find that redemtion becomes "retarded" when your internet connection is slow. I can somewhat testify for this as I have a broadband connection with a network router. When my sister and I are both online sharing the bandwidth playing games, I get around 100-130 ms. ms is the number of milliseconds it takes for client side data to get to the server and back. When only I am on and have all the bandwidth to myself, i get 60-90 ms.
Point is, when I have 100-130, it takes around 2-4 horrible seconds of running away from marines with 70 hp as an onos, dodging this way and that before the hive finally goes:
"Oh, wait. Delta|Cpt.Terran is hurt pretty bad. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, yea. *redempt*"
But with 60-90, I get redeemed when I start droping below 100-150 health instantely 75% of time. The other 25% is when I ran into the whole marine team of 7 in HA/HMG around a cornor and got fragged so fast I got a cold shiver.
Summary: Redemtion could possible depend on your internet connection.
If they yell at you, tell them to try something different for a change.
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And it is quite true - weapon upgrades, hmgs and shotties...and you have just spent up big to fade or onos.
The alien lifeforms are *far* too weak to do anything but D second. Even with cara it is downright frustrating to play lerk or skulk mid game. You die instantly, regardless of carapace, and redemption has no effect whatsoever here. I seriously think carapace needs some work.
In all honesty, I think a fourth layer should be added to chambers. So 4 defense == level 4 cara, making it an option to play offensively as a light class.
Fade's too are underpowerered - they are effectively melee only, yet are gifted with hitpoints and abilities that make them far better suited to hit-and run tactics. The only real use for fades is for cheaper-than-onos turret killing - this is where metab shines.
The fact that lose 75-80% of pubby games has almost everything to do with the fact that the comm is even more important to marine strat, and comms are usually either ignored or incompetant at this juncture. It has little to do with aliens being overpowered. I have little doubt time will see marines win more than they lose - possibly even in tournaments (esp if onos-redeem is nerfed, which it doesn't need to be).
Anyway
I agree that D's are somewhat underpowered as a first chamber. The ease of gorging removed the neccesicty of redemption for gorges, and sensories do a better job of protecting chambers/res nodes. Defenses are needed for healing in the feild, but movements can just transport back to a hive for a much safer heal.
Skill wise, Movements offer the most options, but sensory has the most powerful. The balance between them is dead on, as you said. Defense upgrades are the worst, if only for their nature. Defense chambers concentrate on (duh) defense. The problem with this is aliens need to be an aggressive team in the new version, so upgrades are defunct. Regen is useless for anything but gorge/onos (skulks and lerks are too weak, fade can metabolize). Redemption is a must for Onos, but its useless for the lower evolutions. Carapace is the only real choice for all classes, but skulks and lerks are too weak for it to make a significant difference, and Gorges are better off with celerity or cloaking. The problem is the upgrades don't fit with the needs of aliens.
Defense chambers need a fundamental change. First, OC should be called DCs and DCs should be called OCs. Its a simple change, but it reflects the new nature of how the chamber should work. Regeneration needs to be more useful in combat. Skulks should be able to charge a group of marine, take a few bites, run out for a couple seconds and return fully healed, ready to go; regeneration now is a combat plus, instead of self-preservation mode. Carapace should function more like a personal umbra instead of armor as it does now. I'm not saying it should be orange, but the idea that some shots bounce away harmlessly are more combat oriented than increasing damage taking capabilities. Redemption is pretty good where it is, but perhaps a slight nerf to make it slightly less effective for Onos. Redemption should put a person in a little 10 second queue before they return to a hive, They'd be off the map, invulnerable, but not instantly back in action. This makes sense, since redemption works by the bacterium breaking down the alien creature and rebuilding it back at the hive.
This is probably more S&I oriented, but these changes (well, any changes) are neccesary if we want DCs to be viable at ANY position.
Just try to take a marine base out *without* a fallback set of D chambers. The main alien attack works on hit and run. Rush in using onos/fade to do dammage to the TF, fall back and heal, then attack again. Without D chambers, this is not posible, and makes attacking much harder.
Regen is improved for all evolutions, so regen for a skulk works great. I like drying a marines clip out by peeking around a corner constantly, and then hopping out at him. It also works great when youre munching on res nodes and taking slight damage from fire in the process. The only downside is you get no armor bonus.
Carapace is now a little more dependant on strategically placing D chambers on the map. If you think about it, you can place a D chamber in key locations on the map, and use the combination of carapace and the D chamber's healing to make a marine run out of ammo before he can finish you. You're a little more restricted to where you can heal, but you're going to be able to absorb more bullets flat out.
Both of the above D strategies also make marines spend res on ammo packs, because you'll be drawing more ammo out of their clips; basically youre playing more of a chess match with Defense Chambers than the stealth and speed that come with Movement Chambers
Martigen pretty much summed it up for redemp.
Personally I prefer the skill of staying alive with Regen and Carapace over redemp.
Onos is not made in response to anything right now, onos is just always done where possible, period. Onos need D chambers. Movement is practically a necessity for good skulking, bile bombing, lerking, and fading.
If aliens go sensory, they will need to get all three hives (which isn't a problem right now).
Where are the decisions to be made? D is second, onos always come, it's the same thing every game, SDM or MDS, onos every time; it's so linear. What is the point of "hard counters" when both sides always have everything anyways?