Can Real Balance Be Attained?
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">On both pub and clan servers... [long]</div> The more I watch the ongoing discussions, the more I see competing objectives at work. That got me thinking about NS on a larger scale, and balance issues in principle. You have the public who have been suffering with marine ownage for nearly a year that want to see some alien wins for a change. NOT alien ownage, but some nice alien wins. When 2.0 released the majority of new 'toys' were on alien so that meant marines were at a <b>temporary</b> disadvantage. In the playtest when sensory chambers cloaked aliens, we used to use it <b>every</b> game. Then something wonderful happeneed. The marines adapted. Suddenly sensory didn't own anymore. I think the same needs to happen here.
Overall we're hearing that aliens dominate in clan play, but I really think much of that is due to the fact that marines haven't found their groove. (how long was it before JP/HMG became the dominant strat in clan play back in 1.04? It didn't happen right away, that much I do remember.) Regardless, we have competing objectives at work here. The public is interested in public balance, and the clanners are interested in clan play balance. Neither side seems to care what the other side needs, and poor Flayra is stuck in the middle trying to make everyone happy. My main concern is whether it is actually possible for <b>true</b> balance to be obtained on both public and clan servers. The more I look at it, the more it seems we'll never achieve it.
The key point seems to be skill.
The clan members are some of the most skilled players playing NS. There is no mistake here. They will be able to extract every ounce of benefit when playing. The public are your 'average joes' and they have a wide variety of skill from the novice to the very skilled. They may or may not master things like a perfect skulk attack or how to blink and run. The issue seems to be if you make it so that teamns are balance for clan play, then aliens seem to suffer in public play. At first I was puzzled by this (why isn't it that marines suffer in public play when the game is balanced for clan play?) For this answer I think we need to look at the nature of NS gameplay.
The marines use guns. Without exception, almost every player playing NS has played a game that involved firing a gun. People have probably been playing games that involve guns for years. That obviously translates into greater skill for most public players when they play marines. There is also the issue that aliens are mainly melee while marines are mainly range weapons. That means marines will usually get the jump on doing damage. However, when playing aliens, most public players have never played a class like that before. Skulks are often very foreign to public players, and so their reletive skill reflects that. Clan players don't have that problem. They adjust quickly and learn to adapt.
So I can't help but wonder can we balance the game so that both clanners and the public can both have a fun and sucessful game as aliens? I used to think we could, but I'm not so sure anymore. What I would <b>REALLY</b> like to see is the claner use the handicap function to buff marines in a 2.0 game during clan play. I'd be interested in seeing if instead of reworking the entire game to suit a small percentage of players, if instead we could use the handicap function to provide balance at the clan level.
My concern is that we'll continue to see pendulum style balance changes which continually swing one way or another without providing any stable balance to either side.
Regards,
Savant
PS: if people want to respond, please keep it civil and avoid discussing specific balance issues please. I'd love to talk to people about balance in <b>general</b> and not specific issues. Can public and clan play balance be <b>realisticly</b> achieved in NS?
Overall we're hearing that aliens dominate in clan play, but I really think much of that is due to the fact that marines haven't found their groove. (how long was it before JP/HMG became the dominant strat in clan play back in 1.04? It didn't happen right away, that much I do remember.) Regardless, we have competing objectives at work here. The public is interested in public balance, and the clanners are interested in clan play balance. Neither side seems to care what the other side needs, and poor Flayra is stuck in the middle trying to make everyone happy. My main concern is whether it is actually possible for <b>true</b> balance to be obtained on both public and clan servers. The more I look at it, the more it seems we'll never achieve it.
The key point seems to be skill.
The clan members are some of the most skilled players playing NS. There is no mistake here. They will be able to extract every ounce of benefit when playing. The public are your 'average joes' and they have a wide variety of skill from the novice to the very skilled. They may or may not master things like a perfect skulk attack or how to blink and run. The issue seems to be if you make it so that teamns are balance for clan play, then aliens seem to suffer in public play. At first I was puzzled by this (why isn't it that marines suffer in public play when the game is balanced for clan play?) For this answer I think we need to look at the nature of NS gameplay.
The marines use guns. Without exception, almost every player playing NS has played a game that involved firing a gun. People have probably been playing games that involve guns for years. That obviously translates into greater skill for most public players when they play marines. There is also the issue that aliens are mainly melee while marines are mainly range weapons. That means marines will usually get the jump on doing damage. However, when playing aliens, most public players have never played a class like that before. Skulks are often very foreign to public players, and so their reletive skill reflects that. Clan players don't have that problem. They adjust quickly and learn to adapt.
So I can't help but wonder can we balance the game so that both clanners and the public can both have a fun and sucessful game as aliens? I used to think we could, but I'm not so sure anymore. What I would <b>REALLY</b> like to see is the claner use the handicap function to buff marines in a 2.0 game during clan play. I'd be interested in seeing if instead of reworking the entire game to suit a small percentage of players, if instead we could use the handicap function to provide balance at the clan level.
My concern is that we'll continue to see pendulum style balance changes which continually swing one way or another without providing any stable balance to either side.
Regards,
Savant
PS: if people want to respond, please keep it civil and avoid discussing specific balance issues please. I'd love to talk to people about balance in <b>general</b> and not specific issues. Can public and clan play balance be <b>realisticly</b> achieved in NS?
Comments
That and, well, I doubt you're ever going to balance anything for pubs that requires teamwork... That's the greatest restriction, not aim. Short of sacrificing teamwork requirements (which would more or less ruin the point of NS), it's just going to be a matter of dealing with each game on a case by case basis, and enjoying even the losses for what they are... a game.
give it a week(we didnt even played ONE week and there is a patch..!!) or two(even a month) you will see.. it will get better and better :-)
Kharaa and Marines are so different that it's almost impossible to achieve balance between them. If you furthermore try to attain balance so that pub and clan gaming are both happy...well, you must have more than one god in dev team.
You can get close but never actually get <i>there</i>. I thought this was a fact realized long ago <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: This whole 'perfect balance issue' was brought up even pre1.0 and it's not going to change in a million years. NS is too complicated to be balanced completely and hence the only options are to
a) get close enough so that most of the people are kept happy
b) divide clan and pub game completely in to tourny and casual modes(like they are now, except they are not balanced differently).
I don't mean to be disrespectful towards Flayra or the other team members, but I think it's just plain and simple impossible to balance one game mode to handle everything(pub and clan play for Kharaa vs. Marines). Imo they should start seeking for another possibilities.
[edit: sorry if I confused somebody.]
I have never believed you can have perfect balance in this game.
2 different teams with different classes? (what else would you call them)
2 different resource models (StarCraft and WarCraft have very similar resource models for their different races)
2 different attack styles (aliens=guerilla marines=organized)
you can only achieve perfect balance if the weapons, classes, and start points are exactly the same.
it is alike to achieving balance between men and women.
you can't...but you can have fun together <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
let the clanners (myself included) play 2 games every time if they feel it is imbalanced. (win=2, lose=0, or draw=1)
for it always will be ...imbalanced
but god it is so so so so so so so much fun
Thanks NS dev team, thank you so much
As of now i'm seeing marines win on pubs every time they get a decent comm, and people seem to be saying aliens are the better side in clan play.
Aliens got the biggest changes however, it'll be interesting to see how things change as people get used to the aliens new abilities.
The aliens game and style of play deffinitely changed the most so I'm going to withhold judgement until people have adapted a bit more to the new way the aliens play out.
Regards,
Aphon
While I don't think the game can be balanced perfectly (since there will always be that random element where both teams don't have equal skill) I do think the game can be balanced generally when given teams of equal skill.
My concern is that I really don't think it is possible or feesible to balance the game for both public <b>AND</b> clan play. The skill imbalance in those two scenerios make it fundementally difficult to achieve any kind of balance because there are two completely different skill sets.
In games like TFC (for example) balance is achieved not by trying to balance play by pubbers and clanners, but instead giving both teams IDENTICAL tools with which to use, and maps that have identical layouts at each end. Balanced, yes. However this can lead to repetitive and boring gameplay over time.
With NS the focus is on two markedly different teams, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Now when we try and balance the game for skill (IE public as opposed to clan play) we find that it is near impossible to do so.
My intention in this thread is to explore whether it is realistic to attempt to achieve such balance, or would NS be better served by somehow manipulating the game so that clan play can be achieved by using a modified NS build that is specifically tailored to clan play.
Regards,
Savant
Funny, I tend to think it should be the other way around.
Perfect balance would have the marines winning slightly more on the pub side, where previous experience with FPS would come into play for the marines, but the players would tend to be less skilled in fully utilizing the very different abilities of the Kharaa.
Then on the clan side, where the players had adapted to the abilities of the Kharaa, we would see the aliens winning slightly more.
Something I've wondered but haven't ever seen addressed, has anybody explored how much difference having friendly fire on or off makes in clan play? It would be weird if the alien domination they talk about on the clan side could be eliminated simply by shutting off friendly fire.
As a side note, what if it were perfectly balanced for clan play without friendly-fire (with experienced Kharaa winning just as often as experienced marines) while having a slight marine advantage in pub-play that could be adressed by turning the friendly fire on?
Several factors come to mind. First, marines have a commander. They are ranged attackers. They can be quite effective for the team by simply doing what they're told and following the other marines' lead. Marines also will spawn in the same place, a place that there are usually marines already waiting, and there's at least one player waiting for them to spawn (the commander). Do all of the marines have to know each map very well and the strategies in play? It would help their commander a great deal, but they are still quite useful without such knowledge, provided that they're working with their team, which is quite an easy thing to do.
So what I'm saying, then, is that a balanced public game, with the game as is, will make aliens stronger in clan matches. I know this is just conjecture, and hindsight is 20/20, but please hear the theory out.
Second, it is far less intuitive for aliens to work together. There is no commander. No one is watching a hive waiting for you to spawn (and if someone is, either your team is dead, or a marine is spawn camping you). If you have multiple hives, then you aren't even spawning at the same place. Aliens don't usually stick around to help keep their hive (if they are doing that, they're already defeated). Aliens run around the map and discover things. They react to what they find out, they don't need to stay and defend something nearly as often as marines; they are more spread out. Skilled aliens work together very well, but they are far less helped than the marines are in this respect. Aliens are either checking things out alone or making a move on something together, or they're just lost and doing practically nothing.
Third, map knowledge and experience benefits aliens more. It lets them work together ideally; the knowledge makes aliens do these tasks much more effectively, whereas such knowledge for marines is an enhancement, but the difference is less major. Skulks really have to know the map to run around without dying, and better yet, to get kills. They have to know how marines play on the map as well. All of this kind of experience just makes skulking more effective by far, and it also makes working as a team much more possible. There are similar benefits for most (if not all) of the alien classes.
In summary, inexperienced marines are in a better situation than inexperienced aliens, so if a pub game is fair, clan matches shouldn't be. This is not a permanent feature of NS, it is only how NS is balanced thus far. I think real balance can be attained when this attribute itself is ironed out, when marines suffer as much as aliens do when maps and strategies are not understood by most of the team. Right now, you can't skulk, you can't coordinate, you can't gorge right, you can't lerk right, etc. etc. unless you really know the maps and strategies, but you sure can follow marines around and shoot your gun at aliens and try to stand far away from what seems to be the entrance the aliens are coming from, the factor mentioned in the start of this thread (marines already know how to fire weapons).
Now this reasoning I totally agree with! After all, most clanners probably play pubs anyways. Even if NS pubs are not as great as clan matches, they blow away other mods teamwork wise.
Now this reasoning I totally agree with! After all, most clanners probably play pubs anyways. Even if NS pubs are not as great as clan matches, they blow away other mods teamwork wise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree 100% as well and I've already stated that before.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That reasoning only works if you assume NS is not gaining any new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS may gain new players every day, but the amount becomes smaller and smaller when time passes. Thus "n00b"-factor is reduced and public games evolve skill-wise. Some people check the mod out and then leave while others stay and play for several months and start understanding game mechanics. I don't see absolutely any faults in this reasoning and to even further support it, you can check out any new FPS-shooter and notice the exact same phenomenon (or old ones if you can still remember). It's only a matter of game complexity how soon pubbers become similar to clanners and thats why I think it was very wise of the developers to pick many high-skilled veterans for balance. It does the mod good in the end (say a year of play...). There is no "public balance" and "clan balance" in the long run...
Its like the StarCraft Terran Firebat vs the Zerg Hydralisk.
The firebat is a "small" type of unit, does 16 concussive splash damage (50% to medium, 25% to large; splash effects nearby units) has 60 HP, and 1 armor (like the kharaa, this unit has a melee range mostly)
The Hydralisk is a "medium" type of unit, does 10 explosive damage (50% to small, 75% to medium) has 80 hp, and has no armor (or 1, i cant remember). (like the marines, it is a ranged unit)
(attack*mod) - armor = damage
Hydralisk
(10*0.5) - 1 = 4 damage
Firebat
(16*0.5) - 0 = 8 damage
<b>I dont know how fast they fire</b> but the hydralisk does fire faster; but what i do know is that the firebat will kill the hydralisk in 10 shots, and the hydralisk will kill the bat in 14-16 shots.
These two units are fairly ballanced but not <i>truely</i> ballanced, and it doesn't take into account upgrades; which as soon as they are introduced shifts the ballance dramatically to either the hydralisk's or the firebat's favour. so i guess what im trying to say is that you can only get it as fair as possible through ballance. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
now, if these were players it'd be a very close battle; and prolly the more skilled one would win. and thats the problem. there can be no true ballance because there's always different skill levels. Clanners are generally better in all skills (teamwork, aim, etc) and pubbers, well, they're on a lower level. Firebat and Hydralisk or Marine and Kharaa, they're too close to ballance completly when skill is involved.
[e]typo[/e]
<b>There are always more Aliens than Marines</b>
Now usually it's one or two, but when it starts to become 5 on 9 (4 because one Marine has to command) it gets to be an exercise in fultility. It seems more people like Aliens. Why's that? Simple, they hate relying on someone else. Why wait for a commander to drop shotguns and HMGs when you can evolve yourself, knowing there's a few people who Gorge and build all those things you need anyway? They want to kill and kill now, so naturally they start as Skulks and evolve into whatever they like.
This hinders the Marines even more as their numbers are always one less. Because when the Commander is there in the chair, that's one less body helping to fight. Plus the Aliens like annoying hit and run tactics, like using Fades and Lerks to throw acid and bile and **** into Marine bases. And thanks to a Gorge who came by and setup a few Defense Chambers, they can run in, gob the place, run back, and heal quickly. Either that or there are redeeming Onos, which hampers the Marine reiforcements while being digested.
Fact is Aliens are faster to play and upgrade than Marines. As soon as a Hive is built you instantly get an upgrade, and when you mutate upgrades it takes little time and lasts until you die. Not to mention the organic nature of the Aliens leave them without ammo, and with some upgrades they can get more energy more quickly for their weapons. Something that takes longer with Marines, that is IF the Commander gives them the hardware.
The Marines require more teamwork and more coordination and the Aliens... Well... Don't.
<b>There are always more Aliens than Marines</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't explain the mass destroy of marines in scrims.
gg filters
Actually I've played a TON of NS 2.0 on many, many different servers. The main reason marines lose is due to not following the commander's orders. It's that simple. There's been so many times where the comm has an excellent plan of action, but eventually leaves the chair in disgust because people just run off in a random direction. It happens <b>constantly</b>, espcially on large servers where, incidentally, you find the most immature players. Eventually the game becomes counterstrike where it's every marine for himself. Run out alone, get your kills, die. Repeat until the aliens surround your base for the kill.
On the flipside, I also play on some japanese pubs where the teamplay is <b>excellent</b>. There's no chat except to call out enemy positions or request neccesities. The players will follow your waypoint into the depths of hell itself. They'll gladly guard a res tower... even offer to guard it... because the goal isn't kills... its to win. I was amazed when I started playing there. I've also found the game to be <b>perfectly balanced</b> on this server... the team working the closest comes out on top everytime. If Flayra were to gimp a side based on servers with all these rambo immature players, it would greatly upset the balance on servers where people play seriously, which is pretty much perfect right now.
I honestly don't think it's possible to balance NS perfectly between clan and public play. What may work fine in casual play may cause the marines to lose every clan game, and visa versa. So why not tweak the values between the two modes to make both parties happy?
Of course, if the game really is balanced and clans just need to adapt, then I may be just blowing smoke. But otherwise, I really do think the developers should look into tweaking the stats between the two modes.
Regards,
Savant
IMO I don't think it is 'realistically balanced' when an Onos, a half elephant half rhino, is not equal to an HA. An HA is cheaper, and alot more common, it's easier to have squads of HAs quicker than squads of onos. Onos are slow, so the balance here should be that an HA with an HMG has the long range ability to kill an Onos, but surely if an onos gets to gore a him, it should damage him severely? Maybe a more fair way of doing it is that gore takes of 1/4 health from an HA, but also kicks him back abit (you'd go flying if an elephant charged at you) this way the HA could still get a good HMG round into the onos, but still be hurt quite badly. I don't see anything wrong with Devour and Redeem myself when it's difficult to devour an HA anyway, having to crouch to make it work, if an HA gets eaten the way things are atm, then the onos did well. It isn't fair and neither does it help the balance.
Fades are actually excellent in 2.0, I really like them, but I still think that the swipe radius is a little small for something with sharp foot long bones to melee.
Bilebomb on gorges, very good, it's already on 3 hives, PLEASE leave it as it is, if it's on 3 hives, it should be quite strong anyway, please don't consider reducing it's strength if people moan about it.
Skulks, well, nobody plays skulk any more.
Aliens may well be winning more, that's because they know that they can't rambo, a problem still in the marine game. Aliens are more organised and better as a team because they HAVE to be, because they are so nerfed that they can't do much anyway. Aliens win by not allowing marines to take anywhere. If marines take a hive, it's nigh on impossible for aliens to take it back. This when you think about it IS balanced, but it's all too easy for marines to HA train and set up a seige base outside each hive. As already pointed out in this post, aliens don't win because they are stronger than marines - this is NOT true - they win because marines are rarely as organised as aliens.
The balance in this game that has ACTUALLY been achieved is that marines don't get away with lack of organisation. Aliens are forced into organisation because they are so weak, that's why it's so 'inbalanced' because in an effort to make it balanced, team work in marines has not been made important!
It's not right that 2 marines with lmgs can make an onos redeem in 5 seconds, without dying from being gorged once or twice. Nerf++
In a high-level clan game, basically everybody on a team is good. They can shoot really well, and the can bite/slash/gore really well.
In a public game, skill is different, one person can be really good at marines, where another is good at aliens. The point is that these people are on BOTH sides of the fight. Their skills are spread evenly between the teams, unless the teams are stacked. SKILL on both sides is even.
So, in both a pub and a clan game you have about an even level of skill, just for the sake of argument. The real issue is that marines in Public games have a much harder time organizing on a squad level. They have trouble covering each other while building. They have trouble checking blind spot. Aliens on public servers don't need to worry as much with team play, because you can get these huge aliens who don't need back up to do serious damage.
In clan games, you can have real team play. You're all on mike, you're all reporting locations of things. You do cover people. You can call for things like ammo or med packs and you know you'll get them. Also, you all know the plan ahead of time. Best of all, because of the marines ranged weapons, you can sit in the right places to stay safe. There's no idiot who decides that this vent would be nice to sit underneath while trying to cover his wingman.
This turned out a bit garbled but the idea is still there. The issue isn't skill, it's amount of team play.
For the people that were wondering where I got the pubs should have more alien victories, while the clan games should have more marine victories, I was thinking about 1.04 where pub aliens still won sometimes, but in clan games if you lost as a marine you were doing something terribly wrong.
but if the technology tree is expanded on either side
it may render the map worthless. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
making maps takes too long nowadays to do that :-)