A Turret Limit Would Be Nice

itsmemo · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">its needed...</div> something like 300 turrets a limit each game would be nice, its annoying to see commanders spam turrets everywere and camp untill there whole team is equipped. redemp onos cant even handle mass turret farms. not to mention they crash most server...

people just take advantage of tfs and turrets cost decrease and they are everywere <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

300 is just a estimate, i dont know if thats too many or too little

Clint · August 2003

Here we go again.

Maus · August 2003

It's really not needed. For one thing if the aliens let the marines get that kind of res they're clearly doing <i>something</i> wrong, and for another <b>bilebomb</b> is the anti-turret weapon, not onos.

Feannag · August 2003

I hear that, I was in a game where the commander made massive turret farms around the main base. Resources out the butt and no extra bases. It was laggin the server hard with one 50 - 70 turrets all moving and what not. There needs to be a limit on both offense chambers and turrets to ensure gameplay flows easily and smoothly.

es_quatro · August 2003

Bilebomb is one weapon that has been used under effectively in my games of 2.0 (I still laugh at the nub gorges throwing bile bombs at marines as a form of defence.

They are really effective against structures, and when used correctly can level turret farms. I have even turned the game bilebombing the double res in ns_origin.

I just wish it had a little more range, (like 5-10 metres extra) to deal with turret farms in the middle of the open effectively. E.G Marine start in ns_lost.

BTW Redemption Onos is not that great for dealing with turret farms. Get regen as an onos and you can heal faster than a noob with lmg can damage you. It's also good for going in and taking out the tf if you get a few onos to do it. Electricfied Tf will not really hurt one onos with regen and the turrets will divide their attention between the onos's where one onos goes for the TF.

But even still you want a variety of onos lerk and gorge. mix it up and that is even better for dealing with turret farms.

Skillzilla1 · August 2003

Need to increase BileBomb range.

Flak50C · August 2003

if gorge got resources for bileboming buildings... would make it more useful. As it is now gorges sit there painfully waiting for resos and wouldn't dare go near anyplace with a marine because 10 resources now is a lot for a non-combatant.

locallyunscene · August 2003

I haven't seen bilebomb used effectively because I haven't seen many battle gorges. Onos with umbra support has no problem with turret farms in the games I've played. I would like to see a turret limit for the sake of ping, but I haven't seen many turret FARMS to date yet.

include · August 2003

Removing redemption would be nice

Infected_Marine · August 2003

There should be a 300 limit. It sounds like a comical number but just a few minutes ago my comm told me how he had droppped over 60 turrets (in addition to many placed by the original comm), and how upset he was that we only built like 50 of them. I just quite that game when I realized that the commander had over ten times the kills I did despite the fact I am an infinitly better player then him. And the other thing, unlike turret spam, which only happens every so often, almost every game I go Rine I feel like I am assigned building duty. Either it is Group 1 or 6, the comm is having <b>Me</b> sit around and build while other players that have trouble shooting the side of a barn or told to protect me. And with these groups the other guy often refuse or ignore my orders to build the nozzles and Turrets. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

Edit: I should have thought about it, my handle is NSPlayer <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> No wonder.

Boy_Wonder · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maus @ Aug 5 2003, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's really not needed. For one thing if the aliens let the marines get that kind of res they're clearly doing <i>something</i> wrong, and for another <b>bilebomb</b> is the anti-turret weapon, not onos.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I honestly think that bile bomb should be more stealth or more of a range...

Every time i use bile bomb i have to find a spot where i can hit the turrets but the turrets dont hit me...

Most of the time when i use bile bomb a marine pops out of the phase ate and starts mowing me down... i really never successfully used bile bomb except when mowing down marine recource towers...

Umbrascape · August 2003

Just thought I'd add my two cents. I'm not an anti-Marine flamer, but from an equal or on-par-with-the-other-team standpoint, they have a main advantage here. Their turrets are *seemingly* much more powerful than the Kharaa offensive chambers, which do 50 damage (confirmation of stats here would be nice, I forgot the turret damage). They "turret spam" so much that only an onos can even get close, and even then it doesn't last long enough to carve a path for the rest of us.

My main issue is right here: When I "spam" offensive chambers as a Gorge, do you know what they do? They chuck in a few detonation packs or whatever the hell those blasphemous things are. The Kharaa have nothing equivalent of that, so we're stuck with suicide charging the turrets. Skulk "Xenocide" you say? Well, first off, that's only available in 2.0 after you have all three hives, and usually the Marines turret spam inside a as-of-yet untaken hive to keep us out. Gorge 'Bile Bomb' is restricted until you have 2 hives, I believe (don't quote me on it.) Both of those do 200 damage, which isn't enough to dent a turret halfway. So as a Skulk, you just suicided and have to respawn now. As a gorge, you probably got shot down before you were even close enough to use it or lob it over cover. So how to we clear their turrets? We don't have a massive death thingy (aka detpack) to do this with. Any equivalent would be nice, because I view this as the game being slanted. And four out of five games I'm in, we lose do to this combo... Turret spam and detpack cheesyness. If you've ever played as the aliens, you've heard that oh-my-god-run-for-your-life noise, before the whole room blows up in messy chunks, and all the offensive chambers are gone or near-dead and only require polishing off. Where's our thing like that? And onos ain't it, I've seen four of them do nothing to turret spam.

If someone can tell me a viable tactic to counter those two (and not be a smarta$$ about it), I'll listen. But I doubt there is one, and that's the problem.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Sirus · August 2003

Let's take this the Public Beta Forum please ?

SemperFi1 · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think they closed the idea and suggestions forum for a reason. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Pugsley · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbrascape @ Aug 5 2003, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Just thought I'd add my two cents. I'm not an anti-Marine flamer, but from an equal or on-par-with-the-other-team standpoint, they have a main advantage here. Their turrets are *seemingly* much more powerful than the Kharaa offensive chambers, which do 50 damage (confirmation of stats here would be nice, I forgot the turret damage). They "turret spam" so much that only an onos can even get close, and even then it doesn't last long enough to carve a path for the rest of us.

My main issue is right here: When I "spam" offensive chambers as a Gorge, do you know what they do? They chuck in a few detonation packs or whatever the hell those blasphemous things are. The Kharaa have nothing equivalent of that, so we're stuck with suicide charging the turrets. Skulk "Xenocide" you say? Well, first off, that's only available in 2.0 after you have all three hives, and usually the Marines turret spam inside a as-of-yet untaken hive to keep us out. Gorge 'Bile Bomb' is restricted until you have 2 hives, I believe (don't quote me on it.) Both of those do 200 damage, which isn't enough to dent a turret halfway. So as a Skulk, you just suicided and have to respawn now. As a gorge, you probably got shot down before you were even close enough to use it or lob it over cover. So how to we clear their turrets? We don't have a massive death thingy (aka detpack) to do this with. Any equivalent would be nice, because I view this as the game being slanted. And four out of five games I'm in, we lose do to this combo... Turret spam and detpack cheesyness. If you've ever played as the aliens, you've heard that oh-my-god-run-for-your-life noise, before the whole room blows up in messy chunks, and all the offensive chambers are gone or near-dead and only require polishing off. Where's our thing like that? And onos ain't it, I've seen four of them do nothing to turret spam.

If someone can tell me a viable tactic to counter those two (and not be a smarta$$ about it), I'll listen. But I doubt there is one, and that's the problem.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Your forgetting several things: for a start, umbra, a lerk and a regen onos with adrenaline can take out entire turret farms with little/no damage sustained, just let the onos rush in, lerk follows and fires in umbra from a distance, turrets do next to no damage shooting into umbra and will thus never be able to counter the onos regen. Another thing your forgetting about is fade's acid rocket (however this needs 3 hives) just strafe in and out of view and fire acis rockets, under the cover of umbra you can safely dispatch of turret farms this way, and because you have 3 hives, the lerk can give you some primal scream to speed up the process (an onos with umbra primal scream and charge will walk through turret farms VERY quickly). Also, bile bombing gorge's and umbra can quite safely take out tightly packed turrets, however you will need some backup for this as neither lerk or gorge are great at direct combat (lerk can fight on the run with spore's and spike's, but gorge cant run away to keep up...).

Turret farms are very easily delt with, the problem is that a lerk is almost compulsary to support the damage dealing race (umbra is the ultimate turret killer) and lerks are pretty rare these days unfortunately. Oh yea, and you need at least 2 hives for any of these.

As for 'on-par-with-the-other-team' comment, this is what NS is NOT about, NS is about pitting 2 teams totally diffrent to each other, marines have JP's, scanner sweeps, a comm, and a variety of tools. Aliens have a totally diffrent weapon store, their buildigns work completely diffrently, they rely on close ranged combat rather than range, they have personalised upgrades. This game is all about Diversity, the Dev's have said that for quite a while now, making the 2 teams very similar would retract from this diversity.

Epidemic · August 2003

OCs are currently doing 20 dmg.

Tabris · August 2003

This same issue was brought up in 1.0.

There are counter tactics to everything.... let it sink in. People will find ways around it.

In 1.0.... people slowly learned that turreting yourself in was slow death. Every command dropped a tf first when ns was new... then as time progressed... servers learned that this was a silly idea and any command who dropped a tfac was eventually called a noob and ejected.

Live ... Learn.... ADAPT for god sakes.

- Edit

By the way... the gorge is a support unit... and SHOULD NOT be taking on outposts on its own... teamwork now goes beyond the lerk/fade combo on the alien side.

include · August 2003

and you're forgetting the big part...

don't let the marines get enough res nodes to AFFORD turret farms.

If the marines let aliens get all the res....marines are screwed.
If the aliens let marines get all the res....aliens are screwed.

All because action 2 is nearly impossible to defeat, doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Preventing action 1 keeps action 2 from ever appears.

bBy_VoX · August 2003

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>turrent limit.. thats just stupid, and where did you happen to come up with 300 turrets?
i mean they already have a structure limit.. whats the problem??
Ono's, fades all you really have to have to take down is the turret factory and
the turrents all stop.. i mean really thats what people focus on. Few onos with a slightly protected
base, its down no matter what, they'll just mow it down with theyre gore.. iv seen it many times.
iv been a gorge many times myself to bile bome a unprotected area, and i simply cleared the whole entire area, imean what are you complaining about bile bome. 1 the gorge only cost what? 10 resources
and with webbing and building abilities you can't go wroung.. i mean iv havent seen much aliens build a wall of offense chambers and then, build a few defense chambers *behind* them to make it stay permantly from weak guns like the lmg and the shotgun.. and yes the lerk can be of a support, never really though of it..
no limit.. its just simply dumb.. it ruins the flow of the gameplay and you lose out on a long strategic game.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> MWHAHA!!</span>

Cronos · August 2003

I have encountered the turret farm strategy myself a few times.

In some locations it is simply unbeatable, no matter how much teamwork is involved in the process, but in other locations, the turrets go down hard and fast.

In tight quarters with a highly concentrated turret farm with constant maintenance, 4 onos attacking from both sides with 2 lerks umbra/sporing and a gorge biling/healing with all upgrade traits and 2 hives couldnt take down a highly concentrated turret farm in Archiving hive in hera.

However, I'm confident that the answer to tightly packed turret farms will present itself at a later date. There should be a turret limit to prevent server death. As it stands, concentrated turret farming will find it's counter in due time.

Try bumping the post after a couple weeks or a month. If a counter hasnt yet been devised against uber turret farms of doom, then it will definetly be a problem rather then a lack of experience with 2.00.

Hmmm, that may be quote worthy...

"If a counter hasn't been devised for Uber Strat 123, wait a while and gain some more experience with 2.00. If there is no counter for Uber Strat 123 after a few weeks to a month, then it could be a problem rather then a lack of experience with 2.00"

KMO · August 2003

I'm not going to comment on the game balance issues, as neither I nor anyone who has been playing less than a week is qualified to.

But NS2 requires considerably more client PC power to play than NS1, and one of the most significant reasons appears to be the vast number of turret farms. I couldn't care less about how much damage they cause; their main effect is to drop my FPS to the 5-10 range the moment I think about getting anywhere near them.

Oh well, I guess the 450MHz P3 wasn't going to cut it forever, even with the GeForce 3. Just so I can play NS I've got a new motherboard on order (2.8GHz P4 800FSB with 512M of dual-channel DDR400, mmmm). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Stakhanov · August 2003

Here's a suggestion Dread made a while ago :

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
<b>Turret Factory power-supply</b>
This idea would require a limit of one Turret factory/room to stop insane turret spam. One Turret factory supplies turrets around it with power. It gives 10-power units which are shown in the turret factory so that Commander sees how many power-units he still has left to use.
Normal Turret: 1power unit
Siege Cannon: 2power units</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It seems quite reasonable , 10 powerfull aimbots powered by an electrified turret factory should be enough to hold a lone Onos. This would also make the sieging turret farm more vulnerable , forcing the marines to drop a lockdown farm inside the hive with only turrets if they want to keep it safe (giving more time for the aliens to strike the marine base or an other outpost)

More discussion on this when the suggestion forum is reoppened.

CplDavis · August 2003

Gorge and Lerk are like a good combat engineering team. Lerk umbras gorgy, while gorgy uses bile bomb (which has HUGE splash damage) to kill turret farm.

One or two Lerks Umbraing an Onos and you have a Bulldozer to get those smaller turret farms.

Never underestimete the power of mixed unit tactics.
The lerk is a support unit. Use its abilities to your advantage.

Ots · August 2003

Who said turret farms are only done to empty hives?

McMasters · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Both of those do 200 damage, which isn't enough to dent a turret halfway.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
OMG u NeEd 3 SHOTS 2 KIll a TurReNt? H4X!!1!

Listen to yourself. "It takes three shots to kill a turret, oh no." Three shots to destroy 10 Marine resources? OMG!1!!!

Look.

Umbra. Bilebomb. Die. Repeat. Win.

If the Marines turret farm the server to crap, just leave and call it a win on your part. If you *really* care about your stats, you should be playing a different game.

A Turret Limit Would Be Nice

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