Movment At 2nd Hive Chamber= Lose?
Diablus
Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
<div class="IPBDescription">first sens then d????</div> Most games i have played when a gorge doesnt drop a Sensory first or has a sensory then drops a movment at 2nd hive, and mariens have 1 hive lockdown the aliens usually lose <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->. i think its due to the fact of onos needs redemption or else they get crushed easily, yesterday we had sens and then movment, we had 2 hives up we had at least 5 onos what happened? they attacked CC all onos used movment to get there afterward all the onos died including me in less than 2 hmgers shooting us lose a clip
Comments
<b>The default</b>
Sensory
Defense
Movement
It allows for onos (who should be using regen if they have some skill and play conservative) to survive. Defense is not particularly important for the fade because of metabolise, so if you plan on a team of fades then you might want to go with this one.
<b>Super ninja skulk!</b>
Movement
Sensory
Defense
If the marines lock down a hive, you're screwed with this order. However, it will turn your team into a surprise attack machine, especially before MT. Even with MT, a silent cloaked skulk is very hard to spot when it's attacking you. I can consistently get four consecutive kills at an outpost that the commander is focusing on simply because they had no idea where/what they were shooting at. Also good for fades as they can blink and metabolise more with adrenaline.
i actually prefer silence if theres not a epic battle gonig on, but if there is jsut a sneak attack and theres a group on marines in an area where im cloaked, i let them pass, devour the one bhind him, cloak and slowly follow and gore the rest
Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet.
Movement should always come first. Lerks and Fades both desparately need adrenaline, and skulks really could do with celerity and silence. Gorges come off really well with any of the 3. Onos are a waste of res at one hive so we shouldn't even consider them here...
Next can come either chamber, depending on how the game is progressing. Celerity cloaked Onos tend not to need redemption because they can run faster than marines even while devouring. If you swing the other way and get defense then you can have your precious redeem...
Gorges and fades make good use of Sensory, as Scent of Fear provides good early warning systems (fades need to know where they can and can't metabolise safely). The other evolutions do quite well with cloaking.
On the other hand defense will make your OCs just about impossible to take out by vanilla marines. The upgrades themselves are universally good for all aliens, with celerity/regen and silent/carapace making some good combos...
Basically as the 2nd hive comes up, the aliens need a quick conference to decide what is next and why. They should generally have an idea of what the marines are up to and need to use their chambers to press their advantages.
Well that was your biggest mistake. FIVE onos? FIVE???
WTH for? You need maybe one or two onos tops, and each one needs a gorge and a lerk by it's side to succeed. Onos runs in, devours one, gores the rest. Lerk spams umbra and spores (BOTH, not just one or it wont work). And gorge bile bombs what it can.
Onos runs off at 200hp, and his guards cover his exit, heal-spraying and sporing. They heal up, just outside the marine base and then run in to rinse lather and repeat.
Meanwhile fades are independently rushing in and out (which also helps cover the Onos exit), keeping constant pressure up with their speedy blinks into the base to kill the armoury humpers, and another blink out to save their skins and then metabolise to full health.
Movement first is great for a good team, but doesn't have the effect that sensory does imo. Defense is a must at second hive I think too.
Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory is good because it makes you invisible entirely on the parts of the map you control.
Once you've got an area blanketed with passive cloaking, you don't need the cloak upgrade - try Scent of Fear, it's just as good as the marine's Motion Tracking, especially if you can get a Lerk to spore cloud a whole bunch of them. They'll all lose maybe 5-10 HP, but now they're all trackable.
Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory is good because it makes you invisible entirely on the parts of the map you control.
Once you've got an area blanketed with passive cloaking, you don't need the cloak upgrade - try Scent of Fear, it's just as good as the marine's Motion Tracking, especially if you can get a Lerk to spore cloud a whole bunch of them. They'll all lose maybe 5-10 HP, but now they're all trackable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With scent of fear now they don't even have to be hurt, you see them if they have full hp as well now. Great for spying and ambushing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (with cloaking via sense chambers of course)
To be honest I like sens first because it means I can hide everything. And I have seen marines sit in "empty" RT rooms spamming their commander that they have a free RT. For some reason it doesnt occur to them to pop a few rounds into the space to see if there's a cloaked one there.
I do it all the time now - necessity for marine players and others are catching on, hehe.
Defensive first isn't all that good an idea either. While they <b>do</b> let you take the fight to the enemy, all of the defensive chamber's benefits are directly proportional to the health of the alien you are using. Only the fade and onos really have enough health in the first place for defensive upgrades to make a game-breaking change. The rest of the aliens don't benefit anywhere near as much. An early fade might appreciate some early defensive chambers, but any good fade would be MUCH happier with a movement chamber.
Movement chambers not only give really powerful upgrades to early game aliens, but they also feature the DC's ability to let you go on the offensive.
Summary:
SC: Good for early game aliens, bad for offense
DC: Bad for early game aliens, good for offense
MC: Good for early game aliens, good for offense
MC is the best of both worlds, it only makes sense to apply it first to give you the most power at the start. Then either chamber can come next, as they are equally good.
At the end of the day you need MC for your skulks, and then later for your lerks/fades.
And cara is great for every alien apart from the skulk, its even good for attack gorges.
When the marines get upgrades, cloaking becomes next to useless, you arnt going to kill a HA HMG train with cloaking/scent of fear, but u may kill it with vastly improved aliens due to carapace/redemption Onos, adren/cara lerks, adren/cara fades
Comms dont build any scanners to ofset the advantage. I've found skulks eating me while I've looked at the only way in to a room. Even a gorge hiding behind a tf in a room full of Mariens.
Gives a huge bonus to any team.
Hopefull this wil be ofset when the comms wake up. It seems a bit inbalanced at the moment.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> How many times have I run down the corridor spraying LMG only to run out when I hit the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> for the first time.
I especially like the idea of hiding them in places <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> cannot get to. Very good point.
Also, theres already a bad trend of "selfish gorges" who don't ask their team which chamber first, but selfisly plop down sensory even if the game is filled with skilled clanners and regulars. I've seen lots and lots of alien losses, because people just don't get into their thick heads that SC doesn't give anywhere near as good bonus to onos/fades as DC or MC does... And that unlike in 1.04, multiple onos/fades are a must if you want to win.
That being said, the biggest difference gamewise is definativly sensory. If you go sensory, you negate marine MT and gain your own even better wallhack (SoF). Against non-scanning marine commanders, you also win easily. But the MT negation and wallhack is retained even if the marine commander scans a lot. Thus, you can use the sensory network to surprise the marine outposts .. this can work even offensivly, unless the commander pays for (easily chewable) observatories in each outpost.
If you don't go sensory, the marines gets the strategic advantage of knowing where every alien are, while the aliens needs to rely on skulk parasites to track the marines .. skulks that are known to the marines at all times due to MT, of course.
You get two VERY different games for the price on one! :-)
As to whether to go DC or MC after sensory first ... I belive that DC is better for noob pub games, as it allows for more individual alien play, with forward DC's for healing and carapace/regen/redeem all being upgrades that does away with the need for lerk/gorge support.
MC requires much more cooperation - each heavy alien MUST be followed by an umbra lerk and a gorge (preferably two gorges for mutual healing and rapid smackdown on marine bases). Lone aliens running around on their own will either die or be running back to hive and heal FAR to often.
SC/MC skulks own LA marines completly inside a sensory bubble, bw.
IMHO the successful strategy capitalises on opponent weakness. If right now that means Sensories all over the shop, then so be it.
When I hit experienced marines and comms, I'll may have to end up changing it around. But thats just not the case right now.
With sensory first we have the run of our areas, marines don't spot us, and if they can't spot us then they don't know where we're moving TO or FROM. We follow with def because at second hive time Comms have handed out better guns or people are getting to the stage where redeeming is handy.
IMHO if you go movement first you're relying on everyone else on the server being *good*. Which is not the case on pub servers. Otherwise you end up with Skulks on speed, making lots of noise and moving fast but killing little. You're visible and if the marines are defending with intelligence then they'll nail you in the long corridors.
Thus its a safer bet (right now) to go Sens-Def-Move. If you're on a clan or with friends then I'm sure your order will change but for pub play then IMHO its the only way to fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensory is a purely defensive chamber, it offers no good *realistic* offensive capabilities (sensing up their base never works for very long).
If you want to destroy the marines, you need something that will allow you to actually move in and attack.
Matso: Adren fades don't need any kind of back up unless dealing with HA trains or turret farmed bases. Anything else is well within their ability to handle on their own. A sensory/defense fade is completely and utterly useless, as in it can't take *anything* down on it's own, at the very least requiring another skulk or fade nearby for backup. Giving fades the freedom they need allows your team to cover far more ground and keep a good eye on enemy movements (often it's the fades who realise that a HA train is headed to a hive or similar outpost, as they are always where the marines are).
Sensory midgame or endgame is largely irrelevant at that point because they will have so many RTs that obs will be growing like grass. The 2 "good" players kill a few marines while the rest of the aliens get roasted.
Have been in a game where a fader went movement first then spent the game going to the most isolated spots on the map, clearing an RT and telling us "vents are clear" while at the same time 8 of us are at Feedwater trying to push back a seige. Movement was real helpful because it gave us the celerity to die even faster. Def at the second hive was the only thing which saved that game, and when the map restarted I went sens first and we laid waste to the marines. IMHO defence is what the early alien game is all about. Mid-late game the marines have gls and just wipe out defences from around corners. If early game you can lay down the defences and hidey holes, then mid game they'll have so few rts that you'll stomp all over them.
I do understand what you're getting at with movement, but on pub servers or with teams holding a rambo fade or two, movement towers are more liability than bonus on a team level <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->