Sensory Chamber Network
J_D_W
Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16598Members
Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16598Members
First become gorge.
Get some good res, and build ONE sensory in your hive, go out until your cloaking runs out, and build another sensory. Keep repeating this until you are cloaked all over the level <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Get some good res, and build ONE sensory in your hive, go out until your cloaking runs out, and build another sensory. Keep repeating this until you are cloaked all over the level <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
which Cost 20 res and can be eaten by skulks in 0.1 seconds.
To some extent. Yes, you want to move out further than what it cloaks if you are short on res, but in those situations, you're better off placing sensories in key positions. Another thing by finding the edges are double redundancy. even if marines where to find a tower, the entire area is still cloaked.
Another thing of note which I've seen a lot of gorges do is to place them as you'd place offensive chambers. in the middle of the room. That's incorrect. You need to place them at places where it is unlikely to 1) have marines walk into it, 2) have marines notice the tower if the area is scanned 3) get hit in the crossfire.
EDIT: The mini-map helps a lot for this.
Areas marines can't reach without a jp
on top of rails or areas that a marine can't walk right into
not quite corners, but spots marines aren't likely to move into or hide in
corners
No matter where you put them, don't put them in the middle of a room, and don't put them next to another structure. If you place it next to a hive, rt, or o chamber, then once a marine shoots at it they could hit and discover the sensory, that's two for the price of one, why let that happen? I build a sensory a little farther back, then some def chambers in a different spot, and offensive chambers away from all that (unless it's a WoL, then I put def right behind the offense). I also put my offensives in hard to spot areas, like instead of blocking off the choke, let them make it into the middle of the room and be shot from all sides. (unless it's a hive room). Then you have cloaked rt, cloaked hive, cloaked healing station, cloaked death trap, cloaked wall of lame. Sensory works with EVERYTHING.
Barricade off the hives and major choke points with offensive defensive chambers w/ sen and webs when you have it. Everything else do guerella style, stick everything in corners and areas where they can cover teh whole area like a turret farm.
Like on top of cargo boxes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Another tip for those setting up cloaked healing outposts is to surround it with defensive chambers,it helps a whole lot,especially if you have like 8 defensive chambers constantly healing each other
That way there is zip chance of any stray bullets hitting it and revealing. I've seen a lot of what can only be described as substandard building when some gorge has the ONLY sensory parked beside the RT, or builds it in the corridor leading to a choke point but leaves the choke point totally open.
Now, expanding on nub building, if you want to be evil, turf a sensory in plain view that you know they will trip, and keep a redundancy. They'll nuke the obvious one and think they're in the clean. Meanwhile you and your lerk/fade friends can just line up for free snacks.
Oh and remember that the best ambushes happen in corridors away from the action. They EXPECT rts to be fully defended, but i've seen whole marine squads run through corridors without checking for anything.
Indeed. Placing the starting SC in the hive is plain stupid, inless the marine team is going to rush you immediaetly. Try not to place the starting SC in the opponent's hive. Instead, I prefer to place the SC near a hotspot (If the team has good teamwork) or on a commonly-used route.
Remember, if you place SCs you are playing a game of containment and defense. As a skulk, use the sensory network to speed between hotspots but don't let the marines cap too many RTs. DON'T attack the marines too often, since you'll most probably die anyway.
So *if* a shotty rush appears then if you're lucky they wont notice in the hive. Works ok in nub games but when experienced players shoot and reveal the hive then you'll be glad of the cloaked offense all around them. Trying to find a hive can waste a few seconds of their time - sometimes long enough for a counterdefence, imo.
Necrosis i think you are completely right by putting them where marines wont find them, like movements and defence. But they have to find the offense chambers <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
GBrown I always build offense and then sensories then make the hive.. of course if the marines come theyll think you have the hive because of the offence chambers.
xtreme, i didnt really think about that. I guess it is a good idea, but you probably couldnt accurately measure the distance <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Sensory in hive isn't abad idea (slightly off to the side), because it covers your guys when they're respawning during a hive attack.
- Other good spots incase you don't have a team to boost you to vents, in every level there is always these obscure pits that are just a foot down from the railing, in most levels they lead to under floor vents. Anyways, marines dont usually bother jumping over them, so why not sitck a sensory there. the cool thing about ns maps and sensories, is ns maps are covered with so much crap, and stupid indents in the walls that you can stick them in some awesome spot no matter where u are on the map.
- I agree with Kid A, don't worry about observatories, if you notice ur uncloaking and ur not near marine base then get soem guyus and kill it, they're so easy to kill.
Get some good res, and build ONE sensory in your hive, go out until your cloaking runs out, and build another sensory. Keep repeating this until you are cloaked all over the level <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean in no disrespect, but this is just the most godawful "strategy" and simply devastating to the alien team.
I refer this as the "wimp gorge"-syndrome which in conjuction with the "selfish gorge"-syndrome has become the pain of public play and hopefully will soon die out. I've seen massive amount of marine victories (which were at start very surprising considering marines are supposed to be overall "nerfed" in 2.0) compared to alien ones caused by this failed and newbiesh strategy. By building SCs first near your hive, you rob your team of offensive power (attacking marine outposts far away etc.). I think you can't deny this since everyone knows MC and DC give obvious attacking bonuses like carapace/celerity (silence being extremely nice as well before MT...). Don't get me wrong, I think SC as first chamber is very nice. My only objection to it is because it's so horribly and inefficiently used. Why so? Well...
To compensate the lack of offensive upgrades, gorges need to be extra aggressive. What this means is that "wimp gorges", who make sure they don't die by building useless SCs near the hive and <span style='color:red'>waste</span> absurd amounts of resources in areas marines are never supposed to reach, are a completely wrong way to play against somewhat coherent marines. Simply put, if you select SC first, gorges need to be extra <b>bold</b> and brave, not hiding wimps playing it safe. They need to aggressivly search out chokepoints, important resource sites (double nodes for example), build SCs there and support skulks with healspray. There is in no way enough resources and time to waste "networking" the entire map building useless SCs everywhere. You need to be brave and ambitious straight from the start to help out skulks. Learn to place SCs to strategically hot areas to save time and more importantly resources. If you had MC or DC, you wouldn't have to worry about your skulks so much like in 1.04 where it was the skulks responsibility to deal with marines after DCs. Gorges just needed to hurry up putting DCs to a safe place and after that skulks were supposed to win the game. This is not the case at all with SCs in 2.0 and I hope people will soon realize it. For example in ns_eclipse, this I would like to see more right at the start:
-Gorge puts one SC to vent leading from Sub-junction to Computer Core hive.
-Gorge puts one SC to Horseshoe vent.
-Gorge puts one SC to Triad Generator vent.
-After a while some gorge puts SC to the long corridor leading from Sub-junction to Maintenance hive to gain map control.
By the way, I've seen this only once and then we won...
As you can see, there is no "networking" or carpeting, but time/resource-saving placement to strategically important locations. This is infinetly more better strategy than slowly (and I mean slooooowly), but surely carpeting the entire map starting from your hive. This kind of placement gives skulks the tools for map control which they lack because of poor upgrades provided by SC. If you go MC or DC first, just put them all to your hive/s and it's fine. Skulks can get you new terriotory with their upgrades and fend marines off. If you go SC first, never do this, because it only works against stupid non-scanning/non-electrifing/non-observatory building commanders. One day you might get unlucky and the commander you face happens to get enough RTs electrified, because he isn't stupid and your skulks can't do nothing about it without SC chamber support (and since your hiding near your hive building your network, they ain't getting any). Then it's game over. Thus I've always thought "carpeting the map slowly with SCs" more as a lucky attempt based on a wish that marines won't bother moving out of their base in teams before it's too late (which hardly ever happens where I play) than a strong, valid strategy.
Your idea of GORGES going out to the important resource chokepoints is DUMB. If the marines HAVE IT they will have turrets or a pg, even a BASE there. Always send out skulks to do that.
So, if you get sensory, place them near every chokepoint the marines could use to reach a hive, and then skulks have to keep patrolling those chokepoints. Remember, if the marines can stay long enough in a hive to get turrets and a phase up, it will be nearly impossible to get them back. Sensory at the hives themselves is not so important, as a good comm will ping there or build an observatory. You need to surprise them on the way to the hive.
The big advantage of sensory is that one in an area gives all the benefits you need. OC, DC and MC generally require multiple chambers before becoming really effective, but with your 25 start res you can immediately gorge and cloak an area with 5 res left. The price you pay for that convenience is a loss of offensive abilities.
Now, with that out of the way, most marine teams are pretty incompetent and easy to slaughter even if your gorges are fools too, so even a horrible use of sensory chambers can still win you the game. Enjoy it while it lasts, the marines will learn the game, on some servers they already play well, and then stupid sensory placement combined with a lack of gorges can still win you the game (about half the team going gorge at the start would be about right, to get cloaking and skulk healing everywhere in the beginning, just run (as skulk, they're faster) to a good spot, evolve, and build that SC).
I hope you were joking with the above. Movements and defence shouldn't be hidden away in stuckpoints because it'll be hard for your mates to use them. Specially an Onos who has a hard enough time on the map as is. He doesn't need to waste his time crouchjumping to get near a DC....
"I mean in no disrespect, but this is just the most godawful "strategy" and simply devastating to the alien team."
I agree with the initial idea that a sensory crawl is a devastating waste. The trick is to sensory where needed, not just randomly thump them down (If you drop them right where you uncloak then you're causing overlap as well).
"I think you can't deny this since everyone knows MC and DC give obvious attacking bonuses like carapace/celerity (silence being extremely nice as well before MT...)."
I can deny it because it gives an obvious defence bonus - and when you're on the bad end of a shotty rush you end up thankful that you can at least spawn in under cloak. I've seen a cloaked hive room with skulks ONLY take out HA marines in groups of two. With the cloak still up the HAs piled in en masse only to get battered by cloaked onos. IMHO a good win due to sensory.
"To compensate the lack of offensive upgrades, gorges need to be extra aggressive."
Taking a gorge and running straight to the frontline may be bold and aggressive but its also dumb and a waste of your res. The gorge is not an offensive unit - thats what skulks are for.
"building useless SCs near the hive and waste absurd amounts of resources in areas marines are never supposed to reach"
SC on the hive allows spawning under cloak. Building at the hive (which marines aren't supposed to reach) is a defensive move ensuring that should the marines get through, they don't have an easy time taking the hive down. Even a few offense can take out a rambo without having to divert skulks from the main assault.
"They need to aggressivly search out chokepoints, important resource sites (double nodes for example), build SCs there and support skulks with healspray."
Double nodes are a liability, as marines will also be going for them. Nothing will get built except a sensory or defense tower, since marines will pile into that area if they think you're going to take it. Hence I'm elsewhere at safe chokepoints where I can build in peace without some nub skulk running right at me begging for healing and getting both of us shot to hell.
"If you had MC or DC, you wouldn't have to worry about your skulks so much like in 1.04 where it was the skulks responsibility to deal with marines after DCs."
With sensory first I don't worry about skulks anyway. Hit and run works beautifully - I know, i've used it. I may not have tons of health but I'm a skulk, I'm the lowest rung of the ladder, I EXPECT to see the spawning in screen.
"If you go MC or DC first, just put them all to your hive/s and it's fine."
Yeah, because marines can see everything and just shotty with a purpose.
"Skulks can get you new terriotory with their upgrades and fend marines off."
And do what? I've not yet seen skulks go gorge and consolidate their territory. No. I hear "going fade" or "going onos" and off they go. The gorges are the one on consolidation, and you can't consolidate 2 miles from the hive because the aforementioned onos will run back to you with his 5 little friends who'll shoot you, the RT, and the makings of your defence. Without sensory they'll find it even easier.
"it only works against stupid non-scanning/non-electrifing/non-observatory building commanders."
Comms can't obs every corridor, and they can't afford to scan randomly. And while they're electrifying in one place you can be at another, or heaven forbid actually going for hive 2 and the upgrades that'll help solve the electric problem.
In summary I agree that carpeting is wrong, and that defences need to be planned and applied to chokepoints, but at the same time it's equally ridiculous to encourage gorges to rush to the frontline and leave the RTs nearer base totally undefended. I've seen marines try this in every game - defend a spot across the map while leaving the areas near base totally open. What happens is that the aliens get past the perimeter and just romp through the corridors.
As alien, I can either fortify the front lines and suffer the same fate, or carefully and considerately reinforce chokepoints nearer home and make the marines bleed for every inch they take.
I think you got the main picture, but about me telling gorges to attack marines (with spit eh? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), your exaggerating my point. Gorges need to be "somewhat" near the offensive skulks to provide health since skulks are weak (and it takes more effort to kill marines) with the poor upgrades of SC. SC chamber cloaking/MT-negating is excellent, but the upgrades it gives pretty much suck (especially after MT) compared to DC or MC. It is a risk to have gorges near the frontline RTs, but I think it is the only way to compete with avarage marine teams using SC first. You definetly don't want them securing 5-6 RTs and electrifing them because you are too busy making SCs to your hives... Defending your hives is <b>not</b> enough like it was in 1.04. You need RTs and partial map control as well.
Also, you make it sound like shotgun rushes are somehow common in publics, which I think is false. I've yet to see one even with good regulars, because it requires good organization and is very risky. Commanders hardly take the risk of a shotgun rush with complete strangers in a random public... If you find it absolutely necessary to protect your hive with an SC, only build one at the hive, not one for the hive and 2 more for entrances (which is common as far as I know). Thats wasting time and giving marines opportunity to get 2 hives or lots of RTs making things a lot harder.
Overall, I'd like to see more aggressive gorges putting their SCs where they are needed, at the frontline, not just in and near the hives. Skulks need SC chamber cloaking to combat marines more than gorges need it for hiding... Gorges do fine with cloak-upgrade.
If you build them in some obscure location, SCs actually become significantly more valuable <i>after</i> the marines overrun your position. IMO, it's best to attack once the rines are settled in and starting to build (with a few keeping watch). With an SC in the area, you can get everyone into position, attack from the best possible direction, and end up killing a few unbuilt (and thus non-recyclable) structures.
So you (might) lose 10 res when your gorge dies. You can make that back in kills, and inflict 20-60 res damage (worst case 1 rt, best case 2 rt and a tf or pg).
IMHO its suicidal to have gorges try to nail frontline RTs miles from the hive. That to me is a midgame strat. Early game is digging in near base, with rear RTs - not charging forward with the skulks and capping RTs on the marines doorstep. Let offensive units harass the marine advance - thats what they do best. Early game is for gorges to bunker the nearest RTs and choke points so that midgame the marines aren't romping through your first/second hive.
"Also, you make it sound like shotgun rushes are somehow common in publics"
Not my intention, I assure you. Just mentioning them as they're one of the most cited reasons for not going sensory. And IMHO they *will* be common on publics as people catch on. I've been on more and more games where shottys were being passed around shortly after start.
" If you find it absolutely necessary to protect your hive with an SC, only build one at the hive, not one for the hive and 2 more for entrances (which is common as far as I know). "
I agree totally. I go for one which covers the lot, which is workable in most if not all maps. If you're midgame and about to get rushed though, I would understand a redundant SC although if you've hid the first one well you should have no worries (ie don't stick it near anything likely to get shot at).
"Skulks need SC chamber cloaking to combat marines more than gorges need it for hiding... Gorges do fine with cloak-upgrade"
You misunderstand - its not for gorge hiding, its for (or should be, and its what I do) cloaking offensive choke points. Early game when marines are expanding, SC is nowhere near the front lines because it either costs the gorge his life and his defences. And it means back to the spawn to wait on another 50 or so points before you can lay down any sort of holdable RT.
Any place you lay an SC will get bypassed by some marines, and early game skulks IMHO are meant to get shot at. If skulks need an SC at a frontline with random marines, then go gorge, build one, go back to skulk. That leaves the gorges to build decent organised defence, rather than waddle to the front line, build an SC without dying (impressive feat on some servers), and then waddle back to the RTs its trying to build.
Semi permanent defensive gorges aren't frontline troops. As long as they're not totally green, they can be trusted to lay accurate defense which will be your friend when marines push for a hive.
So I do agree on how crappy tower placement and building stuff only for the gorges benefit is bad, however I think encouraging gorges to run to the frontline is equally suicidal and does not make best use of a gorge's talents.
What it boils down to, for me, is that you either consolidate on the fringe, getting constantly shot at by marines since you're on their doorstep and having skulks lead marines to you that may have missed you, spawning back in with few res and having all your existing expenditures totalled, allowing the marines to sprint to your hive relatively unimpeded......
Or, you consolidate intelligently at the nearer RTs and choke points, not dying, saving up the res while pushing from RT to RT putting up some defense, so that when the attack comes the marines are bogged down getting to the hive and thus become ambush fodder.
I would love to be disproved but on pub servers, if you build on the fringe, you lose.
"but your team will know etc.. "
I agree but if you can't get to them then they're useless as defences <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->