Before You Talk About Balance In Ns 2......
sej
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12488Members
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12488Members
<div class="IPBDescription">.....give the comms a chance to adapt</div> Ive seen many players on servers spouting out that the aliens are too strong, and that having onos at 1 hive was plain unbalanced unfairness, and that marines did not stand a chance.
My point is : <b>many comms do not know what the best course of action is in NS 2.0</b> (unless they were a PT)
Time taken for phase gate two hive lock down strategy to be widely used : A few months
Time taken for JP HMG rush strategy to be widely used : A few <b>more</b> months.
NS 2 has just been released. Skill as a commander grows from the experience of commanding games and the experience of watching other successful commanders. Many commanders still have the 1.04 "mindset". Being a comm is now <b>harder</b> : the pace of the game is faster, more things to attend to, more strategies to think about (e.g. if theyre expanding rapidly, should i try a rush? / do they have sensory, in which case ill need to build more obs to scan areas im sending my marines to)
It will take a lot of time to adapt, two days is not enough to make a judgement, and in due course, commanders will figure out new strategies/counter-strategies.
Ive played marine games where weve won, and its not impossible if marines have a good comm , and use teamwork. Solo rambos wont be able to cause the havoc they used to, you wont see 5 skulks dieing to the same rine anymore.
It took around 4 months for people to realise NS was overpowered in favour of the rines for version 1.
Heck, we might even discover a rine tactic which overpowers them to such an extent further balancing is required........though i hope not.
Thanks for reading,
My point is : <b>many comms do not know what the best course of action is in NS 2.0</b> (unless they were a PT)
Time taken for phase gate two hive lock down strategy to be widely used : A few months
Time taken for JP HMG rush strategy to be widely used : A few <b>more</b> months.
NS 2 has just been released. Skill as a commander grows from the experience of commanding games and the experience of watching other successful commanders. Many commanders still have the 1.04 "mindset". Being a comm is now <b>harder</b> : the pace of the game is faster, more things to attend to, more strategies to think about (e.g. if theyre expanding rapidly, should i try a rush? / do they have sensory, in which case ill need to build more obs to scan areas im sending my marines to)
It will take a lot of time to adapt, two days is not enough to make a judgement, and in due course, commanders will figure out new strategies/counter-strategies.
Ive played marine games where weve won, and its not impossible if marines have a good comm , and use teamwork. Solo rambos wont be able to cause the havoc they used to, you wont see 5 skulks dieing to the same rine anymore.
It took around 4 months for people to realise NS was overpowered in favour of the rines for version 1.
Heck, we might even discover a rine tactic which overpowers them to such an extent further balancing is required........though i hope not.
Thanks for reading,
Comments
I just came from commanding a game and the problems I had with it yesterday were completely gone today. Why? Because today I was playing on a familiar map. When we were playing Lost no one knew where what was so they just stayed at base. I had to direct everything and that put a lot of strain on me (We lost that one). But when you get to a map like Nothing everyone is familiar with it so they have an easier time following orders or being more effective when left alone (We won that one). Marines are more effective on familiar maps. People will adjust as time passes.
I have to say that this game is balanced to the point where we get long stalemates that can only be broken by teamwork. Yes, that is what 2.0 is all about, teamwork.
Edit: About the 1.04 mindset, that is completely right. I find that marines let themselves be intimidated by the Onos because they still think it is the powerhouse it used to be in 1.04.
IEdit: About the 1.04 mindset, that is completely right. I find that marines let themselves be intimidated by the Onos because they still think it is the powerhouse it used to be in 1.04. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most hilarious thing happened to me today when I got enough res to go onos real early in the game and every marine I came across literally turned tail and ran without firing a shot. Intimidation = win.
People do not read the changelogs much,so you know what happens :/
And as for comm games,I've never commed online because I am not very good with player management,but if you find a good comm you are likely to win.Heck just now I played as Marines and killed a 3-hive alien team.
2.0 is truely all about teamwork.I had a 1 hour game where marines had 2 hives locked down and we(aliens)still won.
But it goes in reverse as well - marines now expect that chasing a gorge will be a successful hunt for them and will be effective in hindering the enemy - all the aliens lose is the 10 res it takes to evolve gorge, not too much of a setback.
Time taken for fast tech to lvl 3 weapons and HA - 16 hours after 2.0 release
Time taken for LA-LMG marines to realise that Fades and oni die very quickly - 20 hours after 2.0 release
Time taken for commanders to once again 2 hive lock-down with phase and turrets - 24 hours after 2.0 release
Maybe we Australians just learn faster.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Guess we'll need a bit of time to see.
Personally, I have seen some very solid marine wins, and very sneaky alien wins.
We're all new, we're all learning, I think we must all admit that NS is much more fun again, and I agree that we should lay off the "balanced/unbalanced" issue till at least a month or so <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Have fun playing 2.0 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
2) shogun rush? that's a lot of res to be putting down before you get many nodes, i more see them after mariens have 2 - 3 nodes up while they wait for HMG HA
I just came from commanding a game and the problems I had with it yesterday were completely gone today. Why? Because today I was playing on a familiar map. When we were playing Lost no one knew where what was so they just stayed at base. I had to direct everything and that put a lot of strain on me (We lost that one). But when you get to a map like Nothing everyone is familiar with it so they have an easier time following orders or being more effective when left alone (We won that one). Marines are more effective on familiar maps. People will adjust as time passes.
I have to say that this game is balanced to the point where <b>we get long stalemates that can only be broken by teamwork</b>. Yes, that is what 2.0 is all about, teamwork.
Edit: About the 1.04 mindset, that is completely right. I find that marines let themselves be intimidated by the Onos because they still think it is the powerhouse it used to be in 1.04. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes
1.) Aliens are so obsessed with getting Fade/Onos as soon as possible that they won't Gorge. Getting all but a couple skulks to gorge right away, drop a node or a chamber or something and degorge is extremely effective in most situations depending on the server size. Gorge is a community task now instead of a purely dedicated thing; everybody has to do their share. I always gorge and drop a res(or skulk and get hive at 45) at least, and I'm still usually able to get Fade before a lot of people. They also seem to be unwilling to spend further res on chambers unless they want to be a dedicated gorge; often times the game goes on a long time with no more than 1 upgrade chamber.
2.) Related to #1: NOBODY will bile bomb! We get these huge turret farms in stalemate games with 20+ turrets and it literally takes like 20 minutes before I can convince the team to attempt an organized bile attack. No one understands the true value of battle gorging, and that bile bombing with some fade/onos backup is simply the best counter there is to marines turtling themselves in with turrets. It irritates me to no end that I keep suggesting we get a couple gorges in one spot to bile while others guard, and no one even acknowledges me. Bile bomb is one of the alien's greatest advantages IMHO and nobody understands how useful it is(it makes me cry on the inside whenever a gorge gets himself killed attempting to bile a group of marines).
3.) Sensory seems to be becoming the new D chamber in pubs now, and rightly so because it's incredible(though the other chambers work well too, don't get me wrong). Already though you can get people yelling at you for not dropping sensory first, even if you asked the team and half of them said to go ahead with movements or defense. But many aliens don't seem to comprehend how it's actually used, only that it's good to have it. You get gorges dropping a single sensory in the hive or something and never using them again, and it's just irritating. Sensory cloaking is simply the only reason ever to build it first.
4.) Onoses and devour. God, don't even get me started. Devour is rather inefficient against LA marines; it's primarily an HA counter as far as I can tell. Yet we have dumb onoses running at some LMG LAs, stomping, devouring one, and running away to heal all the while snickering about teh pwnage. It seems that people still Onos exclusively to see that ability. Really the only reason I see to bother with that before HAs is if the marine is carrying an expensive gun and you would prefer that he drop it a good deal away from the base. Charge is sorely underused.
5.) Lerks. Either there aren't any on the team, or the ones that are there are completely preoccupied with filling the base with spores and trying to spike marines dead, most of the time getting themselves killed in minutes. Maybe sometimes they'll shoot a single umbra or primal scream in there and then go back to sporing. Lerks are support classes now and they need to actually keep doing these things in order for them to be helpful, but they don't quite get that yet.
Basically aliens are still playing like a bunch of rambos, and very few of them have figured out that aliens actually require a rather large amount of teamwork and <u>cooperation</u> now to go up against competent marines. I pray to god that they figure it out someday when the marines learn their strategies(or vice versa) because it seems like aliens are only willing to do these things out of necessity now, if then. We are seeing right now the big disadvantage to doing so many changes in one huge patch.
I understand the whiners are all griping about how powerful aliens are, but they don't understand just how poorly most alien teams are being played. It's obvious that balance comments can't be made until at least a couple weeks of release, and it's very possible that we'll find out good marines still dominate good aliens.
I've been trying my darndest to get people to drop resource towers as quickly as possible, and half the time when I get them to do it, they forget to put up a hive. I haven't seen aliens tech up as fast as they can yet, but it means a lot less in 2.0 than it did in 1.04, so it isn't fatal.
The problem with bilebomb is because they can't do it themselves... gorges need support from onos, fades, lerks... any thing that can enable them to live longer. Besides that, people are still locked into the "only one gorge builds and doesn't attack" mentality. I was playing an awesome game on nothing that didn't actually go anywhere until the aliens diversified their classes... and all attacked the last hive that was locked down. The marines were either vanilla marines or HA HMG.... not very diverse... so they got ousted readily. The point: Diversification is a heck of a valuable thing to do.
I seriously would like to see games start with movement chambers. Silence is invaluable for an early skulk. Celerity is also a nice choice.... as is adrenalin when they get the second hive up... Sensory chambers value is primarily in the "aura" of invisibility they have. Therefore they are only really useful if you have lots of them all over the map... for the element of surprise thing.
Devour is horribly inefficient as Zek said. It's awesome at taking out an HA HMG but its far from the "No-skill" that people make it out to be. Especially with redemption. Two freaking lmg marines with modest upgrades (provided they don't miss much) can make an onos redeem before it gets to them. They complain about how they can't kill them... yet I really haven't seen any marines concentrating thier fire on a single target yet.
I still see people trying to spore HA's and turrets... I rarely see umbra used. Umbra is still an awesome ability (You use it differntly now, which throws a bunch of people off), especially for covering those gorges on thier bilebomb runs.
I can't wait till a few months pass so that people will be more adept and realize that there really isn't a master build order for anything yet. As it's been said a million times already, it is way too early to talk about balance. From what I've seen so far however, is that the game is quite balanced when you take two teams who are reasonably skillful, and adapt to the new version. On the server I play on, the skill level is quite high compared to most public servers... so I've had awesome 2.0 games since its been out.
I suppose I'm just lucky then
And sensory is just an answer to motion tracking, which has also been complained about a lot. So just be thankful for it.
I also heard someone say in this topic that marines can't win a game if you make any mistakes. That is completely wrong in my opinion. What makes marines lose is that they are so afraid of making mistakes that they don't do anything. They don't put up any rts at all sometimes. You have to be aggressive, losing rts or tfs is all part of the game, get used to it. Same with aliens, they think they've lost if they lose a hive. That is not the case with 2.0, I have seen so many comebacks. But they only happen if you don't give up, keep playing until the last hive/ip is down.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 hive lockdown works...but isnt as effective as any GOOD alien team can EASILY break a hive lockdown, fade, onos, hell even a lerk!
Actually,it is both of those that make them lose,both the fear of making a mistake and making one is very costly to a team,whatever side.
And I will have to agree with Zek,because people don't understand that having 7 gorges raiding a marine base or turret farm can break it.Neither will they realize that Devour is purely anti-HA until it is too late,where all the people who have just been introduced and those that adapt quickly know the pros and cons.
<span style='color:#041e2d'>2 gorges bilebomb the crap outta the marine base/turret farm while 5 heal,seems farfetched but it works =D</span>
And as to answer your question Kaiser,the fastest time I got a Hive up was 3 minutes,because I was battle-grging as well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> spit can work a lot of miracles now
EDIT : Lockdowns can still happen,but they can be broken easily if you work AS A TEAM.
IEdit: About the 1.04 mindset, that is completely right. I find that marines let themselves be intimidated by the Onos because they still think it is the powerhouse it used to be in 1.04. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most hilarious thing happened to me today when I got enough res to go onos real early in the game and every marine I came across literally turned tail and ran without firing a shot. Intimidation = win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol me too!
I went onos and sat in an empty hive with cloaking.
45 sec later 6 (SIX!) Marines rush in. Saying they have secured the hive. I thought I was screwed (we had no D upgrades) so I started to make a run for it thus uncloaking myself. The second this happens all the marines.. Well they were literaly trying to leap frog over themselves trying to make for the exit.
If they had unloaded into me they would have killed me for sure. Instead I got a late night snack. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway I don't consider myself to be a great comm, maybe just average, I need to have fairly independant marines that know what they are doing and get on with the job, I just kinda point them in the right direction, so if I drop 3 HA/HMG/Welder, and set a waypoint to a hive they go and attack. I also like to have groups of 2-3 marines wondering around to find somewhere i can drop a phase gate (i.e. a hive).
So getting back to the story, basically it was the easist game I've ever won, my marines just did everything perfectly, I took the hives as needed, everything went great, and this was when I thought aliens were overpowered, well anyway, couple of hours later, I commed on mineshaft and totally lost, didnt even manage to take one rt, and my next game on lost didnt go too well either.
My point is that it's not just about the comm, its about the whole team, and how they work together.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, necro, I gotta ask, but how exactly does that happen?
I've brought this up in another thread, and I'll say it here again. Without their 2nd hive abilities the capacity of the alien classes is questionable at best. Fades can hit and run with the excellent blink, but if those turtled marines happen to have HA, as is so often the case, well those hit and run attacks do nothing and place a 50 resource investment in serious risk.
The Onos as 1 hive is extreamly weak vs concentrated fire or HA: no stomp means that he gets cut to shreads before he even reaches the marines and no charge means he can't cover the distance. Yes, he could have celerity, but that means no defense, and an onos without defensive upgrades tends to be a dead onos. Yes, he could have defensive upgrades, but he'll be damn slow. If he has redemption most of the time he'll redeem before even reaching the marines, and carapace only allows him to live a few seconds
longer. Regen works much the same.
Lerks...well the one hive lerk doesn't make much of a supporter. Sure he can spike, but the damage isn't really enough to make the marines come after him, if the intent is to create an ambush of sorts. Spores works much the same way, except once again HAs don't even notice it. If the marines do come after him they will likely kill him: the lerk flight remains ungainly and one shotgun blast is all it takes. You could have an onos waiting, or a fade, but these two classes will die VERY quickly in close combat.
As I've said most of the 2 hive lockdowns I've seen involve HA. On those occassions where they did not, the aliens still had tremendoes trouble because of a) turrets and b) lvl 3 weaponsk, which were generally able to hold the aliens off until HA was done. Then the slow walk to the last hive, usually with shotguns because they're cheap and extreamly effective vs all hive 1 aliens.
I'm very interested in your proffesional opinion as a playtester Necro so if I could get some specifics on how 1 hive aliens assualt a 2 hive lockdown I'd be much oblidged <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aliens, on the other hand, can easily knock a 2-hive lockdown with oni (remember, it's damage is doubled vs. strucutres!) and gorge support in about 10 secs.
Best thing to do is not to allow them to lock down in the first place, though. You can go gorge right from the start of the game and drop 2 ocs. If 3 people do this the hive is perfectly secured for a long time.
Marines are forced to work together much more than in 1.04 due to sensories, stronger skulks, weaker jp's, etc. and this can be seen in the number of well coordinated marine attacks on hives, phase rushing with shotties, quick turret farming, groups scouting for res, etc.
The kharaa, OTOH, are even more individual than before. They don't require hives to evolve to different life forms, and your personal res expenditure doesn't effect the rest of the team (gorges). This makes aliens reluctant to get together for a big rush - they try to protect their personal res investment by playing safely, wheras marines tend to rush in at the comm's orders, knowing that more weaponry will be forthcoming.
and i play aliens a lot cos i find the new stuff a lot of fun..
I ask half of my team to go gorge and drop either a rt or a mc.....
What happens is we quickly expand, cap about 5 res nodes, and get full upgrades on either movement or sensory...
Marines drop left right and centre a) because theyre used to 1.04 where they could kill many skulks without much trouble and b) we have silence or cloaking, which confuses many "new comers"
The commander then tries to lock down a hive, or tries to expand with by placing many res nodes, which are then chomped down by onos/fades/skulks....
Sometimes the comms try to lock down two hives...and fail...even if they do lock down two hives, aliens have more resources...
BUT i have played in games where aliens have lost to two hive lock downs simply because the marine team were more organised/better than us.
Edit :
Zek you are absolutely right, lerk's ranged umbra and primal scream, and <b>bile bomb</b> are extremely underused atm, ive cleared whole turret farms by setting up a cloaked, silent wall of lame as gorge next to a marine encampment, and then bile bombing the farm. If a marine gets close, i retreat to my wall of lame, and repeat. Like roob said, aliens are more concerned with their own res flow atm - but they are more used to working in teams than the marines.
In 1.04 i felt more like a teamplayer when i was on the aliens , than when i was on marines: on marines i would just go rambo and kill their gorge and res nodes, i didnt really care about the rest of the team because i knew any good comm would be able to win in 1.04.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, necro, I gotta ask, but how exactly does that happen?
I've brought this up in another thread, and I'll say it here again. Without their 2nd hive abilities the capacity of the alien classes is questionable at best. Fades can hit and run with the excellent blink, but if those turtled marines happen to have HA, as is so often the case, well those hit and run attacks do nothing and place a 50 resource investment in serious risk.
The Onos as 1 hive is extreamly weak vs concentrated fire or HA: no stomp means that he gets cut to shreads before he even reaches the marines and no charge means he can't cover the distance. Yes, he could have celerity, but that means no defense, and an onos without defensive upgrades tends to be a dead onos. Yes, he could have defensive upgrades, but he'll be damn slow. If he has redemption most of the time he'll redeem before even reaching the marines, and carapace only allows him to live a few seconds
longer. Regen works much the same.
Lerks...well the one hive lerk doesn't make much of a supporter. Sure he can spike, but the damage isn't really enough to make the marines come after him, if the intent is to create an ambush of sorts. Spores works much the same way, except once again HAs don't even notice it. If the marines do come after him they will likely kill him: the lerk flight remains ungainly and one shotgun blast is all it takes. You could have an onos waiting, or a fade, but these two classes will die VERY quickly in close combat.
As I've said most of the 2 hive lockdowns I've seen involve HA. On those occassions where they did not, the aliens still had tremendoes trouble because of a) turrets and b) lvl 3 weaponsk, which were generally able to hold the aliens off until HA was done. Then the slow walk to the last hive, usually with shotguns because they're cheap and extreamly effective vs all hive 1 aliens.
I'm very interested in your proffesional opinion as a playtester Necro so if I could get some specifics on how 1 hive aliens assualt a 2 hive lockdown I'd be much oblidged <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines have managed a 2 hive lockdown (mucho res) and HA (even more res) before the aliens have Onos, then the marines have obviously BOTH dominated the map total (as they must have more res towers than the aliens) AND the hive locations.
That's not a "hive-2 lockdown" strategy. That's a won marine game.
A hive-2 lockdown strategy means foregoing resources expansion/map control in order to quickly get to two hives and fortify them. That SHOULD mean - unless skill levels are wastly different - that the aliens get the rest of the map - ie, we are looking at maybe 3-7 restower difference. That, in turn, should give the aliens enough res to get heavy aliens long before the marines can both get tech and enough turrets to adequately defend two hives and their base properly.