<b>Apos:</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a faster, cheaper-hive game like 2.0, the hives of course have to fall faster, but even the people who DON'T want something done about the HMG seem to admit that hives and chambers are like paper to the 2.0 HMG rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cheaper yes, faster no. That extra minute tacked on to the hive birth time will make it a bit harder for aliens to recover from a hive loss (although the severity of the loss is reduced to traits, instead of both traits and forms). Also, with webs now a tier3 ability, two-hive aliens will be quite vulnerable to JP-HMG rushes, with the only defense seemingly having a few lerks or fades hang around the hives.
I strongly feel that a HMG nerf against structures would do a lot for diversifying marine combat. At the moment shotties and GLs don't have very strong roles. They have their moments, but anything they can do, HMG can do better. Some fiddling with the structure/player damage ratios would help a lot to distinguish the guns and make comms have to pick their weapons carefully, instead of always betting on a sure-fire winner.
I think that lack of variation will lead to the JP/HMG mentaility of 1.04. By making the HMG the be-all-end-all of weapons, why bother with anything else? Reducing damage vs. structures sounds liek a great idea because it still leaves the HMG in a niche of alien hunter where-as the GL is a stucture killer. Ok, so nerfing the HMG may hinder the marines, but they can be boosted in other areas. One solution, as mentioned already, would be to increase the hive cost to slow the aliens down. This has a two-fold effect in that it allows the marines a chance to tech up some, and also makes it more likely that the aliens will use upgrade chambers before the second hive. Looking back at 1.04, the only reason aliens had half a chance was the WOL that would block off the entrance to the hive. For what I have read, it looks like the WOL option is severely nerfed and the HMG makes short work of anything that might be put up. So, not only has the HMG limited the likley path of the marine tech, but has, by neccessity, narrowed the options of the aliens in their upgrade tech. Now we are moving toward a 2-dimensional game where the winning team is the one that can get to tier 3 the fastest. To me, this type of approach defeats the idea of a tech "tree".
Im not going to bother reading the whole thread, but I'm just going to state the facts. It takes about 1 whole clip of hmg(0) to kill one oc, if thats considered unbalanced by your standards maybe you need to seriously rethink "your" idea of balanced. As for jp hmg rushes, as long as gorges arnt retarded and place oh say 5 ocs(thats 25res) in the hive, you have nothing to worry about, ocs are 90% accurate and kill one jper (even with upgrades ) in about 2 seconds (with 5). People need to stop complaining about a game they haven't even played. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[Elrond]+Jul 21 2003, 09:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([Elrond] @ Jul 21 2003, 09:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and often a jp hmg rush on a hive is the only opportunity. given that the jps have already been by all accounts nerfed into oblivion ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They haven't you know. They are just not the tools of God any longer.
Oh, and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=38968&s=' target='_blank'>Flayra halved damage vs structures for HMG.</a> So let this thread die <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Yumosis+Jul 22 2003, 05:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Jul 22 2003, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im not going to bother reading the whole thread, but I'm just going to state the facts. It takes about 1 whole clip of hmg(0) to kill one oc, if thats considered unbalanced by your standards maybe you need to seriously rethink "your" idea of balanced. As for jp hmg rushes, as long as gorges arnt retarded and place oh say 5 ocs(thats 25res) in the hive, you have nothing to worry about, ocs are 90% accurate and kill one jper (even with upgrades ) in about 2 seconds (with 5). People need to stop complaining about a game they haven't even played. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personaly, I think that when a single weapon is used for ever single job in the game the vast majority of the time, its unbalanced.
doesn't matter if it took 5 clips.
There needs to be other options to taking out structures then just the HMG. If it takes the HMG 2 clips to kill an OC, but a grenade launcher 3 grenades - you bet your **** you'd see the grenade launcher used a lot more.
The HMG should not be the be-all end-all of marine weapons. If it is, it needs to come much later in the game. If not, why even bother having the other weapons? They're just eye candy at the moment.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Yumosis+Jul 22 2003, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Jul 22 2003, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It takes about 1 whole clip of hmg(0) to kill one oc... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What HMG were you using? A level-0 HMG does 2700 points of damage; last I checked, OCs had around 1200 hitpoints.
While the reduction of tech-tree depth is indeed unfortunate, it isn't really a change from 1.04. Marines just push for HMG/JP/HA/Motiontrack, aliens just push for fade/adrenaline/<insert defense ability>/umbra-lerk. While 1.04 does offer other strategic options for both sides, they pale in comparison to these dominant techs.
2.0 is pushing to change all of this with real, difficult tech choices. How can it accomplish this, instead of simply shifting the dominant strategies slightly?
Well, the key is always situational strength versus incidental cost. Any strategy which is strong in a wide number of possible situations but also inexpensive is going to be disproportionately chosen. So, to encourage a strong tech system (instead of a series of common-sense non-choices), options have to be balanced in situational price and value.
Unfortunately, NS just doesn't offer a ton of "situational" tools. Stuff like electrified structures would qualify, since they are a strong defense against one particular type of offense (in this case, melee attacks). However, the vast majority of both NS tech trees are generalized. There are upgrades for your mobility, attack, defense, and perception. These take a lot of forms, but they are still generalized abilities, meant to be used in any number of situations.
If people really want more tech tree depth in NS, more non-stacking situational choices would have to be added. For example, a human defensive upgrade that could either reduce melee or acid damage against structures by 25%. Since you can't have both melee and acid protection, an evaluation of the enemy would be necessary to make a good choice.
On the other hand, I'm not sure the NS team/community really wants the game to go in this direction. People might like to have a deep, interesting tech tree on a theoretical level, but in-game most everyone seems more interested in how well they can execute the same old strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Jul 22 2003, 03:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Jul 22 2003, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Yumosis+Jul 22 2003, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Jul 22 2003, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It takes about 1 whole clip of hmg(0) to kill one oc... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What HMG were you using? A level-0 HMG does 2700 points of damage; last I checked, OCs had around 1200 hitpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Recoil and moving around to dodge wastes a lot of bullets, but then again I guess some people will stand there and let the ocs shoot them for ammo(health costs money, ammo doesn't). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah I'm talking about jp la etc, with ha you could just stand there and let them shoot you, which it would be about 1/2 a clip.
Quote from Flayra in the Beta forum: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I've finally changed the HMG damage to piercing (half vs. structures) so there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't see that in here, so thought I'd post it. They are finally goign to test that and see if it works or not.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Jul 21 2003, 06:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Jul 21 2003, 06:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm all for nerfing the HMG, but maybe not by half. Maybe by 1/3 because if its by half then you might as well just use LMG's to take down hive (HMG - 20, LMG - 10). Half is just too much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HMG has a higher ROF (20), so will still do more damage than an LMG (does it fire 10 or 15 shots/sec?).
This might sound completely unrelated, but why don't they switch bilebomb with webs, putting webs at 2 hives again? That way, the grenades would be useful again (to clear the webbing) and marines won't be getting owned so much (because bilebombs would be rarer).
Flayra's posts on the "Does it feel right?" Beta thread: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't view this as an either/or, but it's definitely tricky to navigate between the two. Overall I'm pretty happy with how everything feels, but if everyone constantly complains that (for instance), lerks die too easily, then I'll certainly considering addressing that somehow.
Oh, and I've finally changed the HMG damage to piercing (half vs. structures) so there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The grenade reload time will most likely be reduced before release (pending an art update from Def one), and the grenade launcher has already been untied from the proto lab, so only adv. armory is needed now.
Oh and Coil, I wouldn't have made these changes if I didn't truly believe they were for the best. It just took a lot of convincing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sweeeeet.
I'm sure he means in the upcoming 2.0z coming tonight(where's Y?), in which case I'm not going to say anything about the HMG change until I find out what else has been done. I do think it would kill marine pub viability if he didn't do anything to bring them up in other areas besides improving GL reloading, but I can only assume that he has improvements in other areas in store.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a faster, cheaper-hive game like 2.0, the hives of course have to fall faster, but even the people who DON'T want something done about the HMG seem to admit that hives and chambers are like paper to the 2.0 HMG rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cheaper yes, faster no. That extra minute tacked on to the hive birth time will make it a bit harder for aliens to recover from a hive loss (although the severity of the loss is reduced to traits, instead of both traits and forms). Also, with webs now a tier3 ability, two-hive aliens will be quite vulnerable to JP-HMG rushes, with the only defense seemingly having a few lerks or fades hang around the hives.
I strongly feel that a HMG nerf against structures would do a lot for diversifying marine combat. At the moment shotties and GLs don't have very strong roles. They have their moments, but anything they can do, HMG can do better. Some fiddling with the structure/player damage ratios would help a lot to distinguish the guns and make comms have to pick their weapons carefully, instead of always betting on a sure-fire winner.
Looking back at 1.04, the only reason aliens had half a chance was the WOL that would block off the entrance to the hive. For what I have read, it looks like the WOL option is severely nerfed and the HMG makes short work of anything that might be put up. So, not only has the HMG limited the likley path of the marine tech, but has, by neccessity, narrowed the options of the aliens in their upgrade tech. Now we are moving toward a 2-dimensional game where the winning team is the one that can get to tier 3 the fastest.
To me, this type of approach defeats the idea of a tech "tree".
They haven't you know. They are just not the tools of God any longer.
Oh, and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=38968&s=' target='_blank'>Flayra halved damage vs structures for HMG.</a> So let this thread die <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and I've finally changed the HMG damage to piercing (half vs. structures) so there.
As coil said, "whine and ye shall recieve"
/me nudges coil and nods at the big shiney red lock button.
Personaly, I think that when a single weapon is used for ever single job in the game the vast majority of the time, its unbalanced.
doesn't matter if it took 5 clips.
There needs to be other options to taking out structures then just the HMG. If it takes the HMG 2 clips to kill an OC, but a grenade launcher 3 grenades - you bet your **** you'd see the grenade launcher used a lot more.
The HMG should not be the be-all end-all of marine weapons. If it is, it needs to come much later in the game. If not, why even bother having the other weapons? They're just eye candy at the moment.
What HMG were you using? A level-0 HMG does 2700 points of damage; last I checked, OCs had around 1200 hitpoints.
While the reduction of tech-tree depth is indeed unfortunate, it isn't really a change from 1.04. Marines just push for HMG/JP/HA/Motiontrack, aliens just push for fade/adrenaline/<insert defense ability>/umbra-lerk. While 1.04 does offer other strategic options for both sides, they pale in comparison to these dominant techs.
2.0 is pushing to change all of this with real, difficult tech choices. How can it accomplish this, instead of simply shifting the dominant strategies slightly?
Well, the key is always situational strength versus incidental cost. Any strategy which is strong in a wide number of possible situations but also inexpensive is going to be disproportionately chosen. So, to encourage a strong tech system (instead of a series of common-sense non-choices), options have to be balanced in situational price and value.
Unfortunately, NS just doesn't offer a ton of "situational" tools. Stuff like electrified structures would qualify, since they are a strong defense against one particular type of offense (in this case, melee attacks). However, the vast majority of both NS tech trees are generalized. There are upgrades for your mobility, attack, defense, and perception. These take a lot of forms, but they are still generalized abilities, meant to be used in any number of situations.
If people really want more tech tree depth in NS, more non-stacking situational choices would have to be added. For example, a human defensive upgrade that could either reduce melee or acid damage against structures by 25%. Since you can't have both melee and acid protection, an evaluation of the enemy would be necessary to make a good choice.
On the other hand, I'm not sure the NS team/community really wants the game to go in this direction. People might like to have a deep, interesting tech tree on a theoretical level, but in-game most everyone seems more interested in how well they can execute the same old strategies.
What HMG were you using? A level-0 HMG does 2700 points of damage; last I checked, OCs had around 1200 hitpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil and moving around to dodge wastes a lot of bullets, but then again I guess some people will stand there and let the ocs shoot them for ammo(health costs money, ammo doesn't). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah I'm talking about jp la etc, with ha you could just stand there and let them shoot you, which it would be about 1/2 a clip.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I've finally changed the HMG damage to piercing (half vs. structures) so there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't see that in here, so thought I'd post it. They are finally goign to test that and see if it works or not.
HMG has a higher ROF (20), so will still do more damage than an LMG (does it fire 10 or 15 shots/sec?).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't view this as an either/or, but it's definitely tricky to navigate between the two. Overall I'm pretty happy with how everything feels, but if everyone constantly complains that (for instance), lerks die too easily, then I'll certainly considering addressing that somehow.
Oh, and I've finally changed the HMG damage to piercing (half vs. structures) so there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The grenade reload time will most likely be reduced before release (pending an art update from Def one), and the grenade launcher has already been untied from the proto lab, so only adv. armory is needed now.
Oh and Coil, I wouldn't have made these changes if I didn't truly believe they were for the best. It just took a lot of convincing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweeeeet.
I'm sure he means in the upcoming 2.0z coming tonight(where's Y?), in which case I'm not going to say anything about the HMG change until I find out what else has been done. I do think it would kill marine pub viability if he didn't do anything to bring them up in other areas besides improving GL reloading, but I can only assume that he has improvements in other areas in store.