Stupid Commander Decisions
FCC
Join Date: 2003-07-16 Member: 18218Members
Join Date: 2003-07-16 Member: 18218Members
1) <b>Researching level one weapons before level one armor when the skulks don't have carapace</b>
I really don't understand why Commanders do this. Level one light machine gun does not kill an uncarapaced skulk <b>any faster </b> than a level zero light machine gun. It takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level zero light machine gun, and it still takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level one light machine gun. With level one armor, a light marine can take an extra bite from a skulk, might not seem like much, but it actually is. I can reminisce of countless times where I've sustained two bites from a skulk, and turned around just in time to kill that skulk before the third bite.
Now if the skulks had carapace, then the Commander should be deciding whether to get level one weapons or level one armor, but then, level one armor could still be considered a more valid choice.
2) <b>Researching level two weapons before level one armor</b>
Why? Not only does it cost twice as much resources and time to research level two weapons, but it also allows the light machine gun to kill a carapaced skulk faster by <b>one whole bullet</b>. So lets spend 40 resources and two minutes to research level two weapons so we can kill carapaced skulks in <b>15 bullets rather than 16 bullets. </b>
Heck, I've seem Commanders get level three weapons before level one armor....why?
<b>Note: Statistics on number of bullets to kill a skulk and number of bites to kill a marine where taken from <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>NS Weapons and Health Stats</a></b>
3) <b>Dropping medpacks for no reason; unless the marine team has an ample amount of resources </b>
Medpacks should only be given to marines who need them the most. And by most I mean marines who are building an important building, chasing down an important enemy (gorges, lerks, and fades), and have expensive equipment (jetpacks, heavy armor). <b>If a marine wants health, they can type kill in the console and they will spawn with 100 health: problem solved. </b>
Also, when a marine asks for health, don't start spamming the ground with medpacks, unless it is important. A marine needs at most two medpacks to restore his health back to 100.
4) <b>Relying the jetpack and heavy machine gun combo</b>
The infamous combo is what aliens hate the most, and when I join the marines and see my team with the combo I think: there had better be a good reason why we have this combo. A Commander expects the combo to annihilate a hive, and to a certain degree yes. <b>But when the aliens have umbra, spikes, bitegun, acid rocket, defensive chambers, offensive chambers, and webs protecting their hive, it is nearly impossible to take down a hive, even with three or four jetpackers with heavy machine guns and grenade launchers.</b> So how do many Commanders respond to such resistance? They drop more jetpacks and heavy guns expecting their divine marines to destroy the hive.
A Commander should start researching heavy armor as soon as they realize that the combo isn't going to work. Sure heavy armor requires teamwork, but Natural Selection is all about teamwork, but what the Commander is doing is simply making his team do an essential part of the game. And when utilized correctly, a group of heavies (with a variety of weapons) is next to unstoppable.
I really don't understand why Commanders do this. Level one light machine gun does not kill an uncarapaced skulk <b>any faster </b> than a level zero light machine gun. It takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level zero light machine gun, and it still takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level one light machine gun. With level one armor, a light marine can take an extra bite from a skulk, might not seem like much, but it actually is. I can reminisce of countless times where I've sustained two bites from a skulk, and turned around just in time to kill that skulk before the third bite.
Now if the skulks had carapace, then the Commander should be deciding whether to get level one weapons or level one armor, but then, level one armor could still be considered a more valid choice.
2) <b>Researching level two weapons before level one armor</b>
Why? Not only does it cost twice as much resources and time to research level two weapons, but it also allows the light machine gun to kill a carapaced skulk faster by <b>one whole bullet</b>. So lets spend 40 resources and two minutes to research level two weapons so we can kill carapaced skulks in <b>15 bullets rather than 16 bullets. </b>
Heck, I've seem Commanders get level three weapons before level one armor....why?
<b>Note: Statistics on number of bullets to kill a skulk and number of bites to kill a marine where taken from <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>NS Weapons and Health Stats</a></b>
3) <b>Dropping medpacks for no reason; unless the marine team has an ample amount of resources </b>
Medpacks should only be given to marines who need them the most. And by most I mean marines who are building an important building, chasing down an important enemy (gorges, lerks, and fades), and have expensive equipment (jetpacks, heavy armor). <b>If a marine wants health, they can type kill in the console and they will spawn with 100 health: problem solved. </b>
Also, when a marine asks for health, don't start spamming the ground with medpacks, unless it is important. A marine needs at most two medpacks to restore his health back to 100.
4) <b>Relying the jetpack and heavy machine gun combo</b>
The infamous combo is what aliens hate the most, and when I join the marines and see my team with the combo I think: there had better be a good reason why we have this combo. A Commander expects the combo to annihilate a hive, and to a certain degree yes. <b>But when the aliens have umbra, spikes, bitegun, acid rocket, defensive chambers, offensive chambers, and webs protecting their hive, it is nearly impossible to take down a hive, even with three or four jetpackers with heavy machine guns and grenade launchers.</b> So how do many Commanders respond to such resistance? They drop more jetpacks and heavy guns expecting their divine marines to destroy the hive.
A Commander should start researching heavy armor as soon as they realize that the combo isn't going to work. Sure heavy armor requires teamwork, but Natural Selection is all about teamwork, but what the Commander is doing is simply making his team do an essential part of the game. And when utilized correctly, a group of heavies (with a variety of weapons) is next to unstoppable.
Comments
2) <b>Researching level two weapons before level one armor</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I usually get level 2 weapons before level 1 armor when I have turrets defending a hive. Level 0 turrets can easily be taken down by a single skulk strafing around them - they're next to useless at defending areas without marine backup. Level 2 turrets however, can easily defend against 1-2 skulks. If any more come, I start shouting at my marines to get through the phase and help out.
I agree with the rest of your points though - JP/HMG rushes are the most irritating thing in the game, especially when the commander keeps dropping them (hmm... 34 res... another jp/hmg!).
And yes, the JP/HMG combo is very powerful.. until you're up against webs, chambers, umbra and fades. I've seen CoM's refuse to adapt and spend enough resources on JP/HMG's to outfit a squad of heavies AND build a sige outpost, then yell at their marines for dying. If Marines die the first time you try it, or the second, it might be their fault but if you try the same thing a third time.. it's yours.
I guess people need to be a bit more flexible instead of doing the same thing over and over, then blame their troops if they fail.
<WARNING> Bullcrap alert! Bullcrap alert! <WARNING>
This is just <i>not</i> true. The numbers just do not agree with you. Please take a close look at kitsune's tables that FCC posted. In fact, I'll copy out the relevant portion:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Sentry turret:
Base Damage: Skulk
23 4/5/8/8
25.3 4/5/6/7
27.6 4/5/6/7<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
As you can see, the difference between lvl 0 turrets and lvl 2 turrets vs lvl 3 cara skulks is a staggering <i>one</i> shot. Is that really the difference between "easy to circlestrafe" and "can easily defend against 1-2 skulks"?
It gets even worse... The difference between lvl 1 turrets and lvl 2 turrets when fighting against skulks is <i>nonexistant</i>. None. Zip. Nada. Let me say this again: There is <b>no</b> difference between lvl 1 turrets and lvl 2 turrets when fighting against skulks.
So, by all means get weapons 1 before armor 1 with turrets as (part of) your argument. Armor 1 would probably still be better in 90% of cases imho, but at least it has some merit. But please, don't <i>ever</i> get weapons 2 because of your turrets.
I completely agree with all points in the original post.
Note that I've only commanded maybe fifthteen times total. I don't like to comm when I know that the marines are too fresh or won't listen. And since I'm pub restricted because of my frequent high ping, that's every server except COFR.
Nice post! Oh, I knew about the jp/hmg thing already, not always the best of ideas.
I really don't understand why Commanders do this. Level one light machine gun does not kill an uncarapaced skulk <b>any faster </b> than a level zero light machine gun. It takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level zero light machine gun, and it still takes <b>nine bullets </b>to kill an uncarapaced skulk with a level one light machine gun. With level one armor, a light marine can take an extra bite from a skulk, might not seem like much, but it actually is. I can reminisce of countless times where I've sustained two bites from a skulk, and turned around just in time to kill that skulk before the third bite.
Now if the skulks had carapace, then the Commander should be deciding whether to get level one weapons or level one armor, but then, level one armor could still be considered a more valid choice.
2) <b>Researching level two weapons before level one armor</b>
Why? Not only does it cost twice as much resources and time to research level two weapons, but it also allows the light machine gun to kill a carapaced skulk faster by <b>one whole bullet</b>. So lets spend 40 resources and two minutes to research level two weapons so we can kill carapaced skulks in <b>15 bullets rather than 16 bullets. </b>
Heck, I've seem Commanders get level three weapons before level one armor....why?
<b>Note: Statistics on number of bullets to kill a skulk and number of bites to kill a marine where taken from <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>NS Weapons and Health Stats</a></b>
3) <b>Dropping medpacks for no reason; unless the marine team has an ample amount of resources </b>
Medpacks should only be given to marines who need them the most. And by most I mean marines who are building an important building, chasing down an important enemy (gorges, lerks, and fades), and have expensive equipment (jetpacks, heavy armor). <b>If a marine wants health, they can type kill in the console and they will spawn with 100 health: problem solved. </b>
Also, when a marine asks for health, don't start spamming the ground with medpacks, unless it is important. A marine needs at most two medpacks to restore his health back to 100.
4) <b>Relying the jetpack and heavy machine gun combo</b>
The infamous combo is what aliens hate the most, and when I join the marines and see my team with the combo I think: there had better be a good reason why we have this combo. A Commander expects the combo to annihilate a hive, and to a certain degree yes. <b>But when the aliens have umbra, spikes, bitegun, acid rocket, defensive chambers, offensive chambers, and webs protecting their hive, it is nearly impossible to take down a hive, even with three or four jetpackers with heavy machine guns and grenade launchers.</b> So how do many Commanders respond to such resistance? They drop more jetpacks and heavy guns expecting their divine marines to destroy the hive.
A Commander should start researching heavy armor as soon as they realize that the combo isn't going to work. Sure heavy armor requires teamwork, but Natural Selection is all about teamwork, but what the Commander is doing is simply making his team do an essential part of the game. And when utilized correctly, a group of heavies (with a variety of weapons) is next to unstoppable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
EXACTLY. I got called a nub by some moron because a minute and a half into the game, I did armor one first before I started the weapons. I was like dude, it makes no difference until they have carapace or we have weapons 2, I got so fed up with his continual insistence that I actually left the game and came back with a link to show everybody the damage chart.
It cost the team the game though, as being distracted by some jackass really does hurt my comming, my problem came in the fact that I didn't ignore him :-\
Nice points for your 1st post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1)& 2) All upgrades make a difference. For example Lvl1 Lmg might not kill an uncarapaced skulk any faster, but you will need it against structures and very soon against cara.
I prefer Lvl1 Armor,Lvl1 Weapons, then it depends.
3) Depends on res and situation. If you want something badly done, there is no alternative for med spam.
4) If this was a jp-rush you should get that hive, else it is too late, you were too slow. Switching to HA and prepare for a hard battle.
Just something to think about.
I do agree that LVL1 armor should be the 1st upgrade of choice though.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Sentry turret:
Base Damage: Skulk
23 4/5/8/8
25.3 4/5/6/7
27.6 4/5/6/7<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
As you can see, the difference between lvl 0 turrets and lvl 2 turrets vs lvl 3 cara skulks is a staggering <i>one</i> shot. Is that really the difference between "easy to circlestrafe" and "can easily defend against 1-2 skulks"?
It gets even worse... The difference between lvl 1 turrets and lvl 2 turrets when fighting against skulks is <i>nonexistant</i>. None. Zip. Nada. Let me say this again: There is <b>no</b> difference between lvl 1 turrets and lvl 2 turrets when fighting against skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough - they may both do the same damage, but level 2 turrets track enemies better, and shoot faster. They also make a much more frightening noise <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Where did you get this information from? I have never heard of this and it might be true, but it still doesn't justify the fact that level two weapons should come before level one armor.
Sure it might provide as a morale booster for the marines, but level one armor is cheap and can be researched in half a minute.
Where did you get this information from? I have never heard of this and it might be true, but it still doesn't justify the fact that level two weapons should come before level one armor.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can any Vet or Op or Admin tell us if this is true?
Do Turrets get faster or track better when you have more upgrades?
What you guys seem to be missing is the physocological effect. Most marines feel a lot tougher when they see that little pistol down in the bottom right, and i know for a fact that i chase down more skulks when i know i have weapon upgrades. Also, this may seem obvious, but if you've got level 2 weapons, it doesn't take as long to reach Level 3 weapons, which you need once fades are about.
If an alien team doesn't have at least one cara by the time you've got one upgrade, they're doing something wrong. Well, ok, not as SOON as, but it should only be about 1 minute difference, and L0 weapons seem to just bounce off a cara'd skulk (i don't care <b>what</b> the numbers say, i just cannot kill a level 3 cara'd skulk with no upgrades). The team get's annoyed, they start base camping, the aliens take the other hives, and it's game over.
Armour Level 2 is useful, but i'd prefer to get at <b>least</b> weapon level 2 before that, and i know for a fact there's at least one server full of people who agree with me, because we had this discussion about 2 days ago on a server. We decided on weapon L2, then armour, then L3 weaps, then armour 2 then armour 3.
Again, the numbers disagree with me, but it seems that a L3 weapon cuts through a L3 cara'd skulk FAR better than a L0 weapon cuts through a vanilla skulk. It literally seems like two shots and they're dead, and this is SUCH an advantage for the marine team, because the marines get bold and start rushing those pesky fades (2 L3 marines can easily take down a cara'd skulk with only LMGS).
Anyway, that's my 42 cents <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
if i know fades are coming i try to get level 2 arm up because acid rockets throw a curve at me with splash damage. plus i also play on a server where the other go by the numbers too so i dont need to worry about the moral effect of upgrades.
So far the consensus seems to be: lvl 1 armor first, then weps, then more armor later, which also seems to make the most sense to me. The way i see it, you should be researching upgrades at all times, as when you are not, you are simply wasting time.
Remember: all of what i´ve just said is MY opinion. You find fault with it, please say so, that is YOUR opinion. $h!t, i may be wrong, but its MY opinion, and i´m entitled to it. thankzz.
Do Turrets get faster or track better when you have more upgrades? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I'm not a vet, an op, or an admin, but I can tell you that level 2 turrets and level 0 turrets only differ in damage and not in effectiveness of tracking.
Of course, I haven't played 2.0 yet, so this may change.
They only track faster when you've got the upgrade called NS 2.0 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, on the topic of weapons 2 vs armor 1. If you've got weapons 2 before they have carapace, your marines are just that much stronger. Of course, they still get ripped in half in 2 bites. It's more or less a matter of preference and skill.
If you exploit your range in battle instead of trying to 1 on 1 a skulk in close quarters, that weapons 2 will show. Other than that, I have to agree that armor 1 is a lifesaver.
I have to go with the one rule of thumb that I've used as a commander. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, rethink your strategy.
Technically it would make sense; however, the statistics do not show any improvement when going in that order. Level one weapons makes no difference if the skulks have no carapace, and while we are on the topic, neither does level two weapons make any significant difference in killing skulks with no carapace. To be exact, level two weapons kills a skulk in <b>eight bullets </b>while level one weapons kills a skulk in <b>nine bullets. </b> Definitely not worth the investment unless level one armor has already been researched.
Also, level two and three armor should only be researched after level three weapons. Why? [B]A light marine can still only sustain three bites, from a skulk, before dying with level two armor, in other words, there is no difference in level one or two armor other than an increase in armor points (this case is different for heavy armored marines).
Personally the choice that usually <b>really</b> annoys me is the one suggested by the previous poster: researching level 3 weapons (with the eternal 3 minute wait) before level 2 armour if fades are around or imminent, as they often are by that point. Yes, i'm sure level 3 weapons really hurt fades, but what's the point if you die in just a couple of acid splashes?
Everyone seems to know that "level 2 armour is no better than level 1" against skulks, but they often forget the "against skulks" detail. What about OCs, lerks and fades? On top of that if you're going for the JP rush with HMG, I'd suggest that the HMG is powerful enough already to take down a hive, and its more critical to give the JPers as much armour as possible to survive OC batterings.
My personal order is usually Armour1, Weaps1, Weaps2, Armour2, Weaps3, Armour3. Regardless of the relative merits of armour/weapons I also feel its important to get as many upgrades as fast as possible, thus always doing quicker upgrades before longer ones.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I was wrong when I said level two armor should <b>only</b> researched after level three weapons; it all depends on the situation. You have a valid point with the level two armor before level three weapons; however, I don't think it is whether or not the light marine dies against the fade, but rather how much damage it does to the fade. When a fade realizes it has sustained more than 50% damaged, the fade may choose to continue fighting or flee to the nearest healing station to save themselves, and this is what many fades do.
A level one armor marine cannot contend with an experienced fade nor can a level two armor marine (unless of course it is a heavy armored marine). But with level three weapons, the light marine has a reasonably good choice of heavily damaging the fade in hopes of making it flee. Of course this concept doesn't apply if the marines are travelling in groups, making both upgrades valid in a situation like this. But like I said earlier, it all depends on the situation, and this is what many commanders don't realize.
What you guys seem to be missing is the physocological effect. Most marines feel a lot tougher when they see that little pistol down in the bottom right, and i know for a fact that i chase down more skulks when i know i have weapon upgrades. Also, this may seem obvious, but if you've got level 2 weapons, it doesn't take as long to reach Level 3 weapons, which you need once fades are about.
If an alien team doesn't have at least one cara by the time you've got one upgrade, they're doing something wrong. Well, ok, not as SOON as, but it should only be about 1 minute difference, and L0 weapons seem to just bounce off a cara'd skulk (i don't care <b>what</b> the numbers say, i just cannot kill a level 3 cara'd skulk with no upgrades). The team get's annoyed, they start base camping, the aliens take the other hives, and it's game over.
Armour Level 2 is useful, but i'd prefer to get at <b>least</b> weapon level 2 before that, and i know for a fact there's at least one server full of people who agree with me, because we had this discussion about 2 days ago on a server. We decided on weapon L2, then armour, then L3 weaps, then armour 2 then armour 3.
Again, the numbers disagree with me, but it seems that a L3 weapon cuts through a L3 cara'd skulk FAR better than a L0 weapon cuts through a vanilla skulk. It literally seems like two shots and they're dead, and this is SUCH an advantage for the marine team, because the marines get bold and start rushing those pesky fades (2 L3 marines can easily take down a cara'd skulk with only LMGS).
Anyway, that's my 42 cents <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, I perfer armor 1, weapons 1,2,3 and then finish the armor.
They only track faster when you've got the upgrade called NS 2.0 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, on the topic of weapons 2 vs armor 1. If you've got weapons 2 before they have carapace, your marines are just that much stronger. Of course, they still get ripped in half in 2 bites. It's more or less a matter of preference and skill.
If you exploit your range in battle instead of trying to 1 on 1 a skulk in close quarters, that weapons 2 will show. Other than that, I have to agree that armor 1 is a lifesaver.
I have to go with the one rule of thumb that I've used as a commander. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, rethink your strategy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, it makes only a ONE shot difference against no cara skulks
realize that there is NO one hard answer!
If my marines are all pretty good shots and experienced (checks ambush spots etc) I will be willing to go lev3 weapons before any armor because then they can finish off the enemy before getting hurt. Upgrading armor implies you think your marines are going to get bit. Now to be fair, I don't get teams that good ALL the time, so on weaker teams I DO get level 1 armor first. If I'm going for heavy armory, I might even go for level 3 armor before any weapons upgrades. At level3 your basic vanilla marines takes FOUR bites to kill. Talk about super-carapace!
Oh and when planning games in 1.04 try not to plan against hive 2 aliens. Your objective is to kill them before they get fades.
anyhow I played this game where the comm preferred arm arm arm, going to armor 3 without upgrading weapons
it would be good for 1v1 close encounters, but when the 2nd alien shows up you'll already be out of ammo, so your marines will need some general skill and knife ownage
seems interesting and cool but in conclusion armor 3 w/o weapons = bad