well when i learned that my hard earned flawless jewels and millions of coins are worthless in an economy based on PSkuls and SoJ's, i got pretty upset. so i quit for a while, then D2X came out and everyone was expected to buy it, and this is the clincher, theres no benefits to non-D2X players in the patch, so screw em.
if the basic game hasnt made me in love with it wheres the incentive to put another 30$ into it.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Jul 15 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Jul 15 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jul 15 2003, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jul 15 2003, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sirus, adaptation of Cyrus. Yes I know Sirius (notice the extra I, this is no mistake) is a star.
D2 is an RPG. It involves all the basic elements, which I really don't need to tell you, because they're all the same. Just because you don't like it compared to other games is a poor excuse to say its not an RPG.
Sure, D2 is hack and slash, but pretty much any RPG can be, it doesn't need to be a console RPG involving battle sequences. It can be realtime. And the best thing about D2 was that Melee Fighters and Archers had unique skills, in Dungeon Siege, fighters had no unique skills for fighting, you were always limited to....slash...wait...slash..wait, all the way to level 150.
D2 had a variety of skills that made melee combat fun and interesting, along with making archers interesting. Just because the Diablo world broke out of the old boring and busted action RPG genre and totally changed what the genre could be doesn't mean it's not an RPG.
And Role-playing is based on the player, its undeniable, no game could ever make a person play IC or OOC. So what, D2 focused on combat, it's fun, it's fun getting items, it's fun playing in parties with lots of people with monsters coming from everywhere, it's fun to do a variety of spells that aren't limited to mages.
So lets be bitter, say D2 isn't an RPG, but it undeniably is. Just because it's not another plastic version of everyother Action RPG out there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I applaud you for your defense of a great game. Blizzard knew they weren't squaresoft and they didn't go out of their way to try to make an epic RPG so they went out to make a very enjoyable game. They succeeded.
Additionaly, there are only two types of RPGs turn-based and action. And it doesn't matter if you think an action RPG is too hack 'n' slash because its still an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mmmmmkay. I think the term "Role-Playing Game" is being misused here. RPG's used to be deeper, they used to force you to pick a role (hence the name) and play it. They used to have stories. This is the only reason I still play MUDs - because "RPG" these days is anything that involves generating a character, and that's not right.
Sure, you CAN choose to actually roleplay in those games, but that's not what the game is about. No one can deny that there is no interaction with NPC's beyond clicking on them, and there is no engine for emotes or any other kind of in-character interaction. Everything which you can do to "roleplay" in Diablo you can do in any multiplayer game with a chat button, and that's why it's not a roleplaying game. It's an action game, pure and simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D2 is an RPG. It involves all the basic elements, which I really don't need to tell you, because they're all the same. Just because you don't like it compared to other games is a poor excuse to say its not an RPG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IT HAS LEVELS AND COOL LEWT!! PHAT !!! RPG RPG RPG LOLZORS.
Sorry not buying that, hell, levels and that other crap aren't even needed in RPGs at all. AT ALL. This is just a poor argument to say it IS an RPG.
Really, what do you actually do that is a choice that affects the character and gameworld in a truely meaningful fashion? There isn't a single choice in Diablo 2, just the same running around and killing things. Levels, EXP and that crap does not an RPG make. It makes a good action game, but NOTHING else.
Otherwise, Quake is an RPG by your very arguments you've used.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure, D2 is hack and slash, but pretty much any RPG can be, it doesn't need to be a console RPG involving battle sequences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of them aren't RPG's either. But I digress.
I'll raise this point again, but where did I mention this also? Are you arguing against me or some phantom post you thought was mine?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can be realtime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said it couldn't? The fact that Diablo 2 has a poor combat system is pretty much that. Baldurs Gate 2 is getting marginally better and in every respect is a better RPG too.
It is funny how you pull things I've never said like that out of thin air. I never mentioned real time combat or character classes (In fact, I don't even think character classes are needed in an RPG).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the best thing about D2 was that Melee Fighters and Archers had unique skills,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How amazingly...irrelevant. Does this really make a difference? Do two fighters in Diablo 2 have *unqiue* skills FROM eachother? Skills that one can get that the other can't? Are their fighters who are also able to dabble in necromancy or sorcery on the side?
Unique? You're just mistaking that for 'cookie cutter' I think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->in Dungeon Siege, fighters had no unique skills for fighting, you were always limited to....slash...wait...slash..wait, all the way to level 150<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same with Diablo 2. I hardly see a difference. Maybe it's the amount of clicking involved I'm missing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D2 had a variety of skills that made melee combat fun and interesting, along with making archers interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition is interesting, Diablo 2 is CLICK. Call of Cthulhu has a system that works amazingly well and doesn't even need to enforce cookie cutter character classes!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because the Diablo world broke out of the old boring and busted action RPG genre and totally changed what the genre could be doesn't mean it's not an RPG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ACTION GAME, not RPG. Otherwise:
It did worse things for the RPG genre than any other game I can think of. In terms of making an actual RPG that well, allows you to ROLEPLAY and not play a sterotypical cookie cutter archtype, it failed miserably. It gave some people this odd idea about that to make an RPG you don't need depth, much plot, choices or any character interaction, and I'm sorry to tell you that clicking on someone for a short blurb is not character interaction.
RPG's should allow a player to make detailed in depth choices about the world and character. Choosing to click on one poorly drawn skeleton, over another equally as poorly drawn skeleton is not a choice. Nor is anything to do with leveling up or abilities. The kind of things I refer to are those that change the world, for good or evil, or those that alter the character in a significant way. Diablo does none of this, instead being an action game with killing monsters. That is NOT an RPG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Role-playing is based on the player, its undeniable, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is about the only piece of common sense you've said so far. However, this doesn't change anything about Diablo 2.
It also means any game (and you've just admitted this right here) can be an RPG. I can load up counter strike (more on this in a moment) and prentend I'm a CT and be role playing. It would be pretty basic, but it isn't far from what you do in Diablo 2.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->, no game could ever make a person play IC or OOC. So what, D2 focused on combat, it's fun, it's fun getting items, it's fun playing in parties with lots of people with monsters coming from everywhere, it's fun to do a variety of spells that aren't limited to mages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fun to get with people and play Counter Strike and be a terrorist. Hey way a moment, COUNTER STRIKE IS AN RPG!! I gain experience (Money) buy guns (Phat lewt and abilities in one) and play with other people.
THAT MAKES IT THE BEST RPG EVER!!!!!!! [based on popularity]
Honestly, what you just said has utterly nothing to do with this at all. Poor logic does NOT make an argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So lets be bitter, say D2 isn't an RPG, but it undeniably is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've failed dismally in that attempt to provide any proof what so ever. :/ Exactly what makes Diablo 2 and RPG and not Counter Strike, or CnC Generals or ANY other game in ANY other genre. You haven't given a single unique reason why Diablo 2 should be considered an RPG with Fallout, but not what makes it so different from basic derivative action games like CS.
Name one major world affecting CHOICE in Diablo 2 you can make. One thing that MAKES an RPG an RPG where the decisions YOU make on behalf of the character affect the game world in a meaningful way. Just one.
Fallout is undeniably an RPG. Baldurs Gate 2 is arguably an RPG (I think so, but some don't). Diablo 2 is isometric quake with experience and stats=Not enough to qualify it as an RPG at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because it's not another plastic version of everyother Action RPG out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that is the point.
Oh, and those games like Dungeon Seige, they aren't RPG's either.
Dr.d <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Additionaly, there are only two types of RPGs turn-based and action. And it doesn't matter if you think an action RPG is too hack 'n' slash because its still an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No and no.
Baldurs Gate and Arcanum are both RTS (though arcanum has a TB as well) based RPG's and are in fact RPG's.
Fallout and Fallout 2 are about the best anyone has managed to do and were TB.
They do NOT share a combat system and are all GOOD RPG's.
Hence your logic is flawed.
343 Guilty Spark <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D2 is a RPG, you build up your character, Deus ex was a first person shooter RPG, HL is just a first person shooter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does building a character suddenly make it an RPG? What exactly is so special about that?
Dues ex was a very good game and doesn't deserve to be put on the same level as Diablo. It actually made an incredibly solid (If slightly flawed) attempt to make a FPS RPG [Proving that you don't need an isometric point of view to have a good RPG either].
If HL included exp and levels, you would suddenly call that an RPG?
I suppose the standard has dropped that low <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> So sad to see, the RPG genre will permanently remain in the toilet I guess, when it has some of the greatest potential for epic replayable games of any genre....
and dr.d, I don't think they are gonna delete CHARACTERS when 1.10 arrives. Items, yes, but they won't delete the characters, namely because all the people who have lvl 99's will be PO'ed, especially the legit 99's.
Wait no you like to make closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.
I'll elaborate on MY point. There ARE only two types of RPGs, action, which includes diablo (because despite your OPINION of the game it is still an RPG) and most MMORPGs, and then there are turn based RPGs like the FF series. (I admit there might be hybrids out there but none come to mind) Note: FPS RPG count as action.
Everything else falls into the realm of opinion. Whether a game is a horribly designed RPG doesn't change the fact that it is an RPG.
Despite what you might think there are critera that make a game an RPG that have been established. Your opinions are not law despite how you present your argument.
Please tone down the self rightousness in the future because it's just flame bait.
Smoke: They aren't deleting anything. There's a seperate realm called the ladder realm and you have to make new characters to play there.
PS: As has been mentioned countless times the only true RPGs are table-top games and in person RPGs where people "act" out the scenerio. Video games take away the need to play the role in the first place so there isn't much need to argue what makes a video game an RPG anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Despite what you might think there are critera that make a game an RPG that have been established. Your opinions are not law despite how you present your argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are these criteria? I posted some of my criteria, what are yours? Now you're making
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A roleplaying game must involve actual role playing. This is not seeing a character on the screen who you identify as yourself, this is interaction (which leads to story progression) with other players on some level other than indiscriminate clicking . There is no way to speak in Diablo 2 which leads to game progression, your character is incapable of it. You can't just call a game a RPG if there is no roleplaying element to be found.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No and no? Care to elebaroate? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already have above many times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wait no you like to make closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you didn't?
Pot.Kettle.Black.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll elaborate on MY point. There ARE only two types of RPGs, action, which includes diablo (because despite your OPINION of the game it is still an RPG)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above, no proof or any elaboration, completely ignoring all of my arguments without answering any of them.
Debatable. Depends on what the game is actually and what it allows the player to do. The sad thing is, most just degenerate into communal doom rather than living up to the massive potential these games have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and then there are turn based RPGs like the FF series. (I admit there might be hybrids out there but none come to mind) Note: FPS RPG count as action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you don't know about Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2 (Which are sort of hybrids), Arcanum or the upcoming Fallout 3 (Which will, sadly, be a hybrid system). It appears you don't play many RPG games.
Incidently, FF games are variable in their combat system, it isn't solely turn based but are in fact variable hybrid systems in some games. Some other console RPG's use specialised combat systems which can't be called 'action' or 'TB'.
Again, your argument is outright inaccurate and isn't based on any knowledge of the games you are talking about. Play some of these games and you'll find your definition doesn't even apply or only very loosely.
The aspect of choice however, applies to any game that wants to try and call itself an RPG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything else falls into the realm of opinion. Whether a game is a horribly designed RPG doesn't change the fact that it is an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it isn't an RPG to begin with it is irrelevant. Your statement is the equivalent of saying that Quake is a horribly designed RTS but it doesn't change the fact it's an RTS. It's ridiculous because quake ISN'T an RTS to begin with.
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT YOU ARE MISSING.
Frankly, if nobody put an RPG sticker on the box nobody would have this conversation about Diablo 2. As I think has been well demonstrated, people only think of Diablo as an RPG because it had that sticker on the front.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Despite what you might think there are critera that make a game an RPG that have been established. Your opinions are not law despite how you present your argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yours are? Again, Pot.Kettle.Black.
However I've at least PUT forward an argument. You have done nothing but make vague arguments about how it is my opinion only and completely fail to answer (Or address) any of my arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please tone down the self rightousness in the future because it's just flame bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the pot stops calling the kettle black, I'll be more than happy too. It also helps when you don't just ignore everyones arguments and go off on random tangents on things they never said either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS: As has been mentioned countless times the only true RPGs are table-top games and in person RPGs where people "act" out the scenerio. Video games take away the need to play the role in the first place so there isn't much need to argue what makes a video game an RPG anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh that is such complete rubbish. I've been playing and most importantly, designing PnP games for 8 years now and your statement is just the usual defence. It IS possible but it takes work, effort and importantly a great DESIRE to make a GOOD RPG game. You can't get 100% there because a computer cannot be expected to be a variable human DM. But the basic tenants of what makes the PnP game is a degree of freedom of choice in the gameworld. This CAN and HAS been done relatively well on a computer (Fallout, Planescape Torment) before. This is just the plain cop out 101 argument.
Comments
::drools:: 1.10!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 MMMmmMmmmMMMMmmmMMMmMMmmMmmMMMmmm
Diablolisious <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-K
if the basic game hasnt made me in love with it wheres the incentive to put another 30$ into it.
D2 is an RPG. It involves all the basic elements, which I really don't need to tell you, because they're all the same. Just because you don't like it compared to other games is a poor excuse to say its not an RPG.
Sure, D2 is hack and slash, but pretty much any RPG can be, it doesn't need to be a console RPG involving battle sequences. It can be realtime. And the best thing about D2 was that Melee Fighters and Archers had unique skills, in Dungeon Siege, fighters had no unique skills for fighting, you were always limited to....slash...wait...slash..wait, all the way to level 150.
D2 had a variety of skills that made melee combat fun and interesting, along with making archers interesting. Just because the Diablo world broke out of the old boring and busted action RPG genre and totally changed what the genre could be doesn't mean it's not an RPG.
And Role-playing is based on the player, its undeniable, no game could ever make a person play IC or OOC. So what, D2 focused on combat, it's fun, it's fun getting items, it's fun playing in parties with lots of people with monsters coming from everywhere, it's fun to do a variety of spells that aren't limited to mages.
So lets be bitter, say D2 isn't an RPG, but it undeniably is. Just because it's not another plastic version of everyother Action RPG out there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I applaud you for your defense of a great game. Blizzard knew they weren't squaresoft and they didn't go out of their way to try to make an epic RPG so they went out to make a very enjoyable game. They succeeded.
Additionaly, there are only two types of RPGs turn-based and action. And it doesn't matter if you think an action RPG is too hack 'n' slash because its still an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmmmkay. I think the term "Role-Playing Game" is being misused here. RPG's used to be deeper, they used to force you to pick a role (hence the name) and play it. They used to have stories. This is the only reason I still play MUDs - because "RPG" these days is anything that involves generating a character, and that's not right.
Sure, you CAN choose to actually roleplay in those games, but that's not what the game is about. No one can deny that there is no interaction with NPC's beyond clicking on them, and there is no engine for emotes or any other kind of in-character interaction. Everything which you can do to "roleplay" in Diablo you can do in any multiplayer game with a chat button, and that's why it's not a roleplaying game. It's an action game, pure and simple.
IT HAS LEVELS AND COOL LEWT!! PHAT !!! RPG RPG RPG LOLZORS.
Sorry not buying that, hell, levels and that other crap aren't even needed in RPGs at all. AT ALL. This is just a poor argument to say it IS an RPG.
Really, what do you actually do that is a choice that affects the character and gameworld in a truely meaningful fashion? There isn't a single choice in Diablo 2, just the same running around and killing things. Levels, EXP and that crap does not an RPG make. It makes a good action game, but NOTHING else.
Otherwise, Quake is an RPG by your very arguments you've used.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure, D2 is hack and slash, but pretty much any RPG can be, it doesn't need to be a console RPG involving battle sequences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of them aren't RPG's either. But I digress.
I'll raise this point again, but where did I mention this also? Are you arguing against me or some phantom post you thought was mine?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can be realtime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said it couldn't? The fact that Diablo 2 has a poor combat system is pretty much that. Baldurs Gate 2 is getting marginally better and in every respect is a better RPG too.
It is funny how you pull things I've never said like that out of thin air. I never mentioned real time combat or character classes (In fact, I don't even think character classes are needed in an RPG).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the best thing about D2 was that Melee Fighters and Archers had unique skills,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How amazingly...irrelevant. Does this really make a difference? Do two fighters in Diablo 2 have *unqiue* skills FROM eachother? Skills that one can get that the other can't? Are their fighters who are also able to dabble in necromancy or sorcery on the side?
Unique? You're just mistaking that for 'cookie cutter' I think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->in Dungeon Siege, fighters had no unique skills for fighting, you were always limited to....slash...wait...slash..wait, all the way to level 150<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same with Diablo 2. I hardly see a difference. Maybe it's the amount of clicking involved I'm missing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D2 had a variety of skills that made melee combat fun and interesting, along with making archers interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition is interesting, Diablo 2 is CLICK. Call of Cthulhu has a system that works amazingly well and doesn't even need to enforce cookie cutter character classes!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because the Diablo world broke out of the old boring and busted action RPG genre and totally changed what the genre could be doesn't mean it's not an RPG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ACTION GAME, not RPG. Otherwise:
It did worse things for the RPG genre than any other game I can think of. In terms of making an actual RPG that well, allows you to ROLEPLAY and not play a sterotypical cookie cutter archtype, it failed miserably. It gave some people this odd idea about that to make an RPG you don't need depth, much plot, choices or any character interaction, and I'm sorry to tell you that clicking on someone for a short blurb is not character interaction.
RPG's should allow a player to make detailed in depth choices about the world and character. Choosing to click on one poorly drawn skeleton, over another equally as poorly drawn skeleton is not a choice. Nor is anything to do with leveling up or abilities. The kind of things I refer to are those that change the world, for good or evil, or those that alter the character in a significant way. Diablo does none of this, instead being an action game with killing monsters. That is NOT an RPG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Role-playing is based on the player, its undeniable, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is about the only piece of common sense you've said so far. However, this doesn't change anything about Diablo 2.
It also means any game (and you've just admitted this right here) can be an RPG. I can load up counter strike (more on this in a moment) and prentend I'm a CT and be role playing. It would be pretty basic, but it isn't far from what you do in Diablo 2.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->, no game could ever make a person play IC or OOC. So what, D2 focused on combat, it's fun, it's fun getting items, it's fun playing in parties with lots of people with monsters coming from everywhere, it's fun to do a variety of spells that aren't limited to mages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fun to get with people and play Counter Strike and be a terrorist. Hey way a moment, COUNTER STRIKE IS AN RPG!! I gain experience (Money) buy guns (Phat lewt and abilities in one) and play with other people.
THAT MAKES IT THE BEST RPG EVER!!!!!!! [based on popularity]
Honestly, what you just said has utterly nothing to do with this at all. Poor logic does NOT make an argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So lets be bitter, say D2 isn't an RPG, but it undeniably is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've failed dismally in that attempt to provide any proof what so ever. :/ Exactly what makes Diablo 2 and RPG and not Counter Strike, or CnC Generals or ANY other game in ANY other genre. You haven't given a single unique reason why Diablo 2 should be considered an RPG with Fallout, but not what makes it so different from basic derivative action games like CS.
Name one major world affecting CHOICE in Diablo 2 you can make. One thing that MAKES an RPG an RPG where the decisions YOU make on behalf of the character affect the game world in a meaningful way. Just one.
Fallout is undeniably an RPG. Baldurs Gate 2 is arguably an RPG (I think so, but some don't). Diablo 2 is isometric quake with experience and stats=Not enough to qualify it as an RPG at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because it's not another plastic version of everyother Action RPG out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that is the point.
Oh, and those games like Dungeon Seige, they aren't RPG's either.
Dr.d
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Additionaly, there are only two types of RPGs turn-based and action. And it doesn't matter if you think an action RPG is too hack 'n' slash because its still an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No and no.
Baldurs Gate and Arcanum are both RTS (though arcanum has a TB as well) based RPG's and are in fact RPG's.
Fallout and Fallout 2 are about the best anyone has managed to do and were TB.
They do NOT share a combat system and are all GOOD RPG's.
Hence your logic is flawed.
343 Guilty Spark
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D2 is a RPG, you build up your character, Deus ex was a first person shooter RPG, HL is just a first person shooter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does building a character suddenly make it an RPG? What exactly is so special about that?
Dues ex was a very good game and doesn't deserve to be put on the same level as Diablo. It actually made an incredibly solid (If slightly flawed) attempt to make a FPS RPG [Proving that you don't need an isometric point of view to have a good RPG either].
If HL included exp and levels, you would suddenly call that an RPG?
I suppose the standard has dropped that low <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> So sad to see, the RPG genre will permanently remain in the toilet I guess, when it has some of the greatest potential for epic replayable games of any genre....
Sigh.
too much time on D2.
and dr.d, I don't think they are gonna delete CHARACTERS when 1.10 arrives. Items, yes, but they won't delete the characters, namely because all the people who have lvl 99's will be PO'ed, especially the legit 99's.
Wait no you like to make closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.
I'll elaborate on MY point. There ARE only two types of RPGs, action, which includes diablo (because despite your OPINION of the game it is still an RPG) and most MMORPGs, and then there are turn based RPGs like the FF series. (I admit there might be hybrids out there but none come to mind) Note: FPS RPG count as action.
Everything else falls into the realm of opinion. Whether a game is a horribly designed RPG doesn't change the fact that it is an RPG.
Despite what you might think there are critera that make a game an RPG that have been established. Your opinions are not law despite how you present your argument.
Please tone down the self rightousness in the future because it's just flame bait.
Smoke: They aren't deleting anything. There's a seperate realm called the ladder realm and you have to make new characters to play there.
PS: As has been mentioned countless times the only true RPGs are table-top games and in person RPGs where people "act" out the scenerio. Video games take away the need to play the role in the first place so there isn't much need to argue what makes a video game an RPG anyway.
What are these criteria? I posted some of my criteria, what are yours? Now you're making
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A roleplaying game must involve actual role playing. This is not seeing a character on the screen who you identify as yourself, this is interaction (which leads to story progression) with other players on some level other than indiscriminate clicking . There is no way to speak in Diablo 2 which leads to game progression, your character is incapable of it. You can't just call a game a RPG if there is no roleplaying element to be found.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No and no? Care to elebaroate? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already have above many times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wait no you like to make closed ended statements in a definate form regardless of whether they are true or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you didn't?
Pot.Kettle.Black.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll elaborate on MY point. There ARE only two types of RPGs, action, which includes diablo (because despite your OPINION of the game it is still an RPG)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above, no proof or any elaboration, completely ignoring all of my arguments without answering any of them.
Again,
Pot.Kettle.Black.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and most MMORPGs,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Debatable. Depends on what the game is actually and what it allows the player to do. The sad thing is, most just degenerate into communal doom rather than living up to the massive potential these games have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and then there are turn based RPGs like the FF series. (I admit there might be hybrids out there but none come to mind) Note: FPS RPG count as action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you don't know about Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2 (Which are sort of hybrids), Arcanum or the upcoming Fallout 3 (Which will, sadly, be a hybrid system). It appears you don't play many RPG games.
Incidently, FF games are variable in their combat system, it isn't solely turn based but are in fact variable hybrid systems in some games. Some other console RPG's use specialised combat systems which can't be called 'action' or 'TB'.
Again, your argument is outright inaccurate and isn't based on any knowledge of the games you are talking about. Play some of these games and you'll find your definition doesn't even apply or only very loosely.
The aspect of choice however, applies to any game that wants to try and call itself an RPG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything else falls into the realm of opinion. Whether a game is a horribly designed RPG doesn't change the fact that it is an RPG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it isn't an RPG to begin with it is irrelevant. Your statement is the equivalent of saying that Quake is a horribly designed RTS but it doesn't change the fact it's an RTS. It's ridiculous because quake ISN'T an RTS to begin with.
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT YOU ARE MISSING.
Frankly, if nobody put an RPG sticker on the box nobody would have this conversation about Diablo 2. As I think has been well demonstrated, people only think of Diablo as an RPG because it had that sticker on the front.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Despite what you might think there are critera that make a game an RPG that have been established. Your opinions are not law despite how you present your argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yours are? Again, Pot.Kettle.Black.
However I've at least PUT forward an argument. You have done nothing but make vague arguments about how it is my opinion only and completely fail to answer (Or address) any of my arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please tone down the self rightousness in the future because it's just flame bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the pot stops calling the kettle black, I'll be more than happy too. It also helps when you don't just ignore everyones arguments and go off on random tangents on things they never said either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS: As has been mentioned countless times the only true RPGs are table-top games and in person RPGs where people "act" out the scenerio. Video games take away the need to play the role in the first place so there isn't much need to argue what makes a video game an RPG anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh that is such complete rubbish. I've been playing and most importantly, designing PnP games for 8 years now and your statement is just the usual defence. It IS possible but it takes work, effort and importantly a great DESIRE to make a GOOD RPG game. You can't get 100% there because a computer cannot be expected to be a variable human DM. But the basic tenants of what makes the PnP game is a degree of freedom of choice in the gameworld. This CAN and HAS been done relatively well on a computer (Fallout, Planescape Torment) before. This is just the plain cop out 101 argument.