Hl engine = piece of crap ?

HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yeah you heard it !</div>Hi, well my "hello" post is in the official "hello" thread, so i'll not ... herm well lets forget it.

Okay, some ppl might remember me, if they are sitting in the irc chat. The other day, i gently asked why NS has been made for HL. -> under heavy fire of troll.
Yes, because i'm not in love with HL engine/valve/sierra. So, why not made this mod for Quake3 ? Yatta yatta, you'll awnswer the casuals things like: "the mod community" "the way to code fast" blabla. But you must admit that, Quake3 got a way better engine than the weak HL. Imagine how could be the gfx / sound 3d effect with Quake3 engine ? But well, no i'm just dreaming.

Now, because its your fault when NS is out, i will search my HL box somewhere in my house if i haven't burned it already by the time.

Instead of that, i'm pure NS fan, the only thing annoying me is HL crap. So go NS team, your choice was maybe wrong from point of view, but i know noone cares of the graphic engine, because anyway i'll wet my pants the first time i'll play it.

And now release your flame ignorant flamers trolls or lets speak gently about HL engine, its advantages and/or disadvantages.
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Comments

  • DruBoDruBo Back In Beige Join Date: 2002-02-06 Member: 172Members, NS1 Playtester
    afaik, Flayra & co. chose the HL engine because there is a large amount of support for HL mods, there are a lot of amazing mappers who specialize in HL, and because (and this one is just me speculating) HL, unlike Q3, supports dynamic lighting.

    Despite its relative age, the HL engine is not a piece of crap. In fact, Valve is constantly discovering new ways to optimize the code and make it more suited to more recent software evolutions, like playing games on a NT-based platform. And while we may not exactly like the "evil three" of Valve, Gearbox and Sierra, it helps to remember that Raven and iD are not exactly angels either.

    Plus, Flayra has expressed a desire to play NS on his "boatanchor" laptop, which only really supports software rendering. While my laptop is less of a boatanchor, it has the same rendering issue and I would love to be able to play NS on it, on the road. Q3 does not even have a software rendering mode.
  • Zero7Zero7 Join Date: 2002-03-10 Member: 301Members
    I half heartedly agree with you Hilfe. While the Half-Life engine may not be the best engine gfx wise, it is quite stable. Compare it to the Serious Sam (2?) engine it's very stable.

    I would prefer to leave NS on the HL engine though. Why? Because HL is still selling, I still see it whenever I go to EB, Quake 3 however, I do not find. Possibly the popularity of the game partly influenced their choice of game engines?
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Why are you bringing this up?

    Yes, the HL engine is not the best out there.  Yes, maybe the Q3 engine is prettier.  But Valve has some of the best mod support of any company, and 4 years after release the Halflife engine is still getting unbelievable amounts of play online through mods like CounterStrike and (soon) Natural Selection.  You won't find many serious FPS gamers who *don't* have Halflife, even if it's not installed at the moment.  Q3?  UT?  The probability isn't as good.  I don't own either.

    You say you brought this up in IRC, and people gave you reasons for making NS for HL.  Why, praytell, are you bringing it up again in the forums?  People have already told you the answer, and I'm sure I said nothing you haven't already heard.  So apparently you don't listen well.

    Finally, it's really a moot point, anyway.  NS has been in production almost TWO YEARS and Flayra is not going to scrap it and start fresh just because *you* don't like the HL engine.

    *****

    I don't mind discussing the pros and cons of the HL engine.  But keep NS out of it - that conversation is pointless.  Can this get moved to off-topic?
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Hello, help,

    first, in my opinion, calling 50 % of the community trolls is a <i>really</i> bad way of starting, but well, that's up to you.

    On topic, I'm sorry, but what are the great advantages of Q3? Granted, it's a little easier to make maps look good, but don't forget that the Q3 engine was built specifically for relatively small levels with high gamespeed. It is possible to use it for other purposes - MoHAA has shown this - but in that case, the map will eat hardware like EBnar cake.

    Also, there <i>are</i>, as you admit yourself, a lot of advantages to HL like the very well documented SDK, the C++ code instead of scripting languages, the huge possible audiencde, the offered help of Valve themselves ... the list goes on.

    I don't want to make a religion out of the HL engine, but until Doom3 and U2 hit the shelves, it's simply the most versatile engine available to modders.
  • FamFam Diaper-Wearing Dog On A Ball Join Date: 2002-02-17 Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    We gave you a million reasons why the other day on IRC, and you dismissed them all. Therefore I do not see the point in carrying this on.
  • pielemuispielemuis Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 72Members, NS1 Playtester
    graphix isn't everything, i'd prefer a game with "crappy" graphix but with good gameplay over a pretty game with #### gameplay. Besideds, have you seen the Ns pics ? doesn't it look good, what more do you want ?
  • HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
    Well DrunkenBozo got a point -> Numbers of mappers in HL. But the HL success is only due to Counter Strike. Just check with the All Seeing-Eyes how many dudes are playing Counter Strike all over the planet. Its really HUGE. Now we can imagine that Counter Strike has been made for Quake3, complety 3rd dimensional world, ID is teh win Valve in the pit.

    But now the blockbuster (i hate this name) is a mod for HL. I'm sure i'll dont care when i'll play NS when i'll see the poor HL engine gfx but well i can't stop myself thinking about NS on Quake3.

    NSq3!   <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->

    But please your next SFi mod please leave HL !

    (edit) yes some ppl gave me good reasons but most of them was just flaming on the IRC chat.

    No, i'm not asking at the end of the fist beta release to change engine ... i'm not stupid like that. I'm just starting a debat about HL engine.

    Yes, Quake3 engine at the start has been made for little "skirmish". So i was thinking, its what NS need, no ?
    (/edit)
  • steppiosteppio Join Date: 2002-02-13 Member: 210Members
    Its being made for HL, get over it. I dont see you making an engine as good HL's. Until you do or make a mod to match up with NS, shut up and be grateful that people have put the time and effort to bring you such a good mod using a quite old engine.

    p.s. try not to be so lame in future
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    This is a kind of a futile topic, but oh well.

    The reason NS will support software rendering is not so I can play it, but so that more people can play NS.  It wasn't a small decision to make.

    If I was starting NS all over again, I would still pick the Half-life engine.  It has the most versatility, is written in C/C++, has the widest install base (by far), and has Valve at the helm, constantly adding new technologies like Steam, spectator tech, integrated voice, etc.  

    If you want a graphically amazing game with few players and essentially a zero possibility of getting into retail or becoming widespread, you can go with the Quake engine, UT engine, or whatever the flavor of the month is.  If you want a game that will reach many people, look nice (not necessarily the best out there, but NS does not look dated IMHO), get into all those cyber-cafes around the world, and maybe get into retail, then Half-life is the best choice.  I know which I prefer.
  • steppiosteppio Join Date: 2002-02-13 Member: 210Members
    I hope you dont take offence at this Flayra but is Retail release what you were looking for to begin with in this game or did you just want to make a mod?
  • KintakKintak Join Date: 2002-07-11 Member: 909Members
    I particullarly like the HL engine because of it's mediocre graphics. My computer is not that good, but everything runs smooth on HL.
    Like the others said, the HL community is more mod supportive. Look at all the great mods out there. Look at Counter-strike. Look at Day of Defeat. Look at the future Natural-Selection. Look at Firearms. 4 very popular mods that gather a few thousand servers no to mention the tens of thousands of people playing them.
    I happen to love FPSes, but I do not own Quake 3 and havn't played UT for over a year. Valve does tons to make its engine better.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Hilfe+July 16 2002,11:35--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Hilfe @ July 16 2002,11:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, Quake3 engine at the start has been made for little "skirmish". So i was thinking, its what NS need, no ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nope.

    Natural Selection maps tend to be helluva widespread, and the gameplay of the marines is actually supposed to be pretty slow.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--steppio+July 16 2002,11:40--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (steppio @ July 16 2002,11:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope you dont take offence at this Flayra but is Retail release what you were looking for to begin with in this game or did you just want to make a mod?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    From the NS.org FAQ:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Are you guys looking for a publisher or distributor?</b>
    We will release Natural Selection for free, but if you also want to put Natural Selection in a box for us or otherwise give us enough money to keep making games we want to make, we'd love to hear from you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They're making it for the love of the game.  But of course no one minds being payed to do something they love.
  • HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->shut up and be grateful that people have put the time and effort to bring you such a good mod<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yup that's why i bring this HL engine discussion, because in the IRC chat i was getting awnswer like that. "You don't think like, you just sh*t, so shaddup".

    Did i said, NS look amateurs ? No. Did i said this mod is just another deadleaving one, CS is teh win? No. I'm just saying that, HL engine is too old, and i dont like it. Plus i hate the combo Sierra/valve/gearbox.

    But, now if i understood correctly, your goal Flayra is making a mod based on HL just because maybe you can reach the status of CS and get your mod retailed ?
    (edit)
    instead of Q3based mod (or whatever engine) and making the mod looks nicer (ns looks already nice but its still HL engine)
    (/edit)

    Light my way.
  • KintakKintak Join Date: 2002-07-11 Member: 909Members
    The Natural-Selection maps need to be huge. This is a war. It is to be realistic. Why would an intallment infested with aliens be about 300 meters from side to side. This is also a strategy! In a strategy it takes a man 10 minutes to walk from one side of a medium map to another.

    BTW Flayra: Are you going to make a retail game after NS gets up and running well? That is what I would expect if NS is as popular as it looks like it is going to be.

    BTW: Sierra/Valve has supported Half-Life very well. They release a patch every other month. That is pretty good when you realize that Sierra has not released a patch for Homeworld: Cataclysm (The game that ###### me off so much) for over a year. Cataclysm has many many bugs.
  • PlaguebearerPlaguebearer Join Date: 2002-03-21 Member: 338Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I think the higher priority was the 'reach the most people possible', dude.  The 'could get retail, could get paid' part would be nice, too - but I think Flay&co are most interested in getting NS to the widest user base possible.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Hilfe+July 16 2002,11:49--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Hilfe @ July 16 2002,11:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, now if i understood correctly, your goal Flayra is making a mod based on HL just because maybe you can reach the status of CS and get your mod retailed ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wrong... he's making it because he loves gaming and wants to create something for the gaming community.  Of course he wants it to be a successful mod; he wants to reach and appeal to a large number of people.  NS combines RTS, teamplay, and deathmatch all in one - there isn't a game on the market or mod on the web right now that does that.

    If it retailed, that'd be fabulous.  Hell, I'd probably buy it as a "you rock" to Flayra.  But if it never retails, I'm betting Flay's still gonna be real happy with it.  It's a great mod.

    Make this thread go away.  eesh.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--coil+July 16 2002,11:54--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (coil @ July 16 2002,11:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make this thread go away.  eesh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I second this motion.

    Everything was said, two seconds more and we'll have our very first flamewar.
  • HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
    mmKay, thx for the light. I just hope NS will make his path in flow of HL's mod. And ppl would maybe see, "oh there are anothers mod for HL ? there is not just CS ? HOLY COW"
  • KintakKintak Join Date: 2002-07-11 Member: 909Members
    I think one reason why CS is so popular is because it went retail. I bought the Premium pack (or whatever) for half-life which came with CS. I played CS. I loved CS. I played CS for hours more. Then I loved it more. That was the first day.
  • Crim0nKingCrim0nKing Join Date: 2002-02-18 Member: 225Members
    Alright, I don't want to be mean here, but I think flay is getting a bit "too" much credit for NS.  He codes and gives ideas and shiz but he doesn't do everything, I like how someone said "flay&co," makes me happy :-D

    HL engine > Q3A, HL = bunny hop and I can't see aliens on the freaking Q3A engine...think about it.  

    No reason to flame this dude either, I think it's a pretty good topic...

    You said that most of Half-Life's success is due to CS...I know a lot of people (including me) would be playing other HL MODs if CS didn't exist.  And CS r0x anyway so it deserves success :-D
  • FreemantleFreemantle Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Members
    Please count the quality mods for quake 3. WFA sucks. Every mod I have played for Q3 besides Bid for Power (I love this game) totally blows my nuts. The engine forces fast gameplay and the physics engine is downright horrible. I would pory NS to Unreal Tournament LONG before I would like to see it ported to quake 3. I suggest that eventually this mod will be ported to the HL2 engine, ONLY if it is seen as an improvement. Here is what the halflife engine has going for it

    Quality Mods:
    CS
    DOD
    FIREARMS
    S&I


    Also, Flayra has managed to code....


    A particle system
    volumetric flame
    Wall climbing

    The only thing I don't think you can code on the Half-Life engine is Geo-Mod. Besides, we've waited long enough, just release the damn game!
  • HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
    I disagree with you freemantle about the quality mod.

    Q3A ->

    *Urban Terror

    *Q3 fortress (yes the flame gfx just sux but the whole gameplay is exellent)

    *Navy Seals

    and not mods but retail games:

    *moh:aa

    *RtCW

    Ah yes one the main reason i dislike HL engine is the flamethrower, omg c'mon ... RtCW flame gfx ist just plain awnsome, can you make it in HL ? No  <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> Is there a pic of flame gfx in NS somewhere ?
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    NS has a particle engine.....  <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

    And the reason they chose Half-Life is most likely because lots of people play HL, it's stable, and it's easier to code than other games... yeah. Other stuff. If they chose Q3, it'd be harder to code. It might look better, but it would be quite difficult to code for, and not many people would play it, because not many people play Q3, even if there's a good mod for it.
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    This is all great, and people bring up valid points (especially Flay's about ease of use and support). The main issue can be found right here though:

    <a href="http://valve.speakeasy.net/survey/" target="_blank">Speakeasy Gaming Hardware Survey</a>

    As you can see, approximately 50% (of a <b>million</b> respondents, out of 6 million Valve customers) don't have sufficient hardware to run the more bleeding-edge engines that iD, Epic, and Raven have put out in the past few years. That means that in the dog-eat-dog world of mods, you double your player population. This is a key aspect if you want your mod to even end up on people's desktops.
  • HilfeHilfe Join Date: 2002-07-16 Member: 957Members
    Doh! i'm ... knocked out, untill now i was betting that more ppl was owning AMD cpu.
  • VadakillVadakill The Almighty BSO Join Date: 2002-04-02 Member: 373Members, NS1 Playtester
    Oooo, ooooo!  If it goes retail can I get a autographed copy from Flayra and Co? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
  • PlaguebearerPlaguebearer Join Date: 2002-03-21 Member: 338Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Just owning an AMD cpu doesn't mean crap, Hil.  My GF has an AMD... but no fancy gfx accel.  That kind of leaves her cold when it comes to gaming, eh?
  • humbabahumbaba That Exciting Tales From the Frontline Guy Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 86Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Good to see this topic cooling off a tad. I personally own a 500 MHZ celeron with a geforce 2. Pretty poopy. It can run any games from Sacrifice and back smoothly. Anything past that is skippy. Most of my friends have similar systems (cept for the one with the 2.2 GHZ Mo fo with a GEFORCE 4, come one, everyone knows soemone who always has the uber computer.). Considering the quality of this mod, I a, confident that valve would be proud to add it to their roster of mods to "work with the team on", and hopefully release it retail. I probobly am not going to by quake 3, and won't own a new computer for at least a year. In other words, I cant expect to buy any new games any timw soon and have them work well. There are many others in my position. One of flay and company's number one concerns since day one has been accessibility. The actual game itself is full of features designed to be accessible, from the little help sprites to the menu-less join game system, and of course, the pop-up menu. I would just like to close by saying that everyoen in this forum is entitles to speak their mind, and Hilfe even mentioned that he was prepared to take flaming. Don't take this thread as a personal attack on somehtign you hold dear, no need for anyone in this forum to get overly emotional.



    <!--EDIT|humbaba|July 16 2002,14:00-->
  • the_stalkerthe_stalker Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 49Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Hilfe+July 16 2002,11:15--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Hilfe @ July 16 2002,11:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi, well my "hello" post is in the official "hello" thread, so i'll not ... herm well lets forget it.

    Okay, some ppl might remember me, if they are sitting in the irc chat. The other day, i gently asked why NS has been made for HL. -> under heavy fire of troll.
    Yes, because i'm not in love with HL engine/valve/sierra. So, why not made this mod for Quake3 ? Yatta yatta, you'll awnswer the casuals things like: "the mod community" "the way to code fast" blabla. But you must admit that, Quake3 got a way better engine than the weak HL. Imagine how could be the gfx / sound 3d effect with Quake3 engine ? But well, no i'm just dreaming.

    Now, because its your fault when NS is out, i will search my HL box somewhere in my house if i haven't burned it already by the time.

    Instead of that, i'm pure NS fan, the only thing annoying me is HL crap. So go NS team, your choice was maybe wrong from point of view, but i know noone cares of the graphic engine, because anyway i'll wet my pants the first time i'll play it.

    And now release your flame ignorant flamers trolls or lets speak gently about HL engine, its advantages and/or disadvantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    NEVER! DONT DO IT! aarrgghh, it must be for hl engine now that its been for this for like 2 years! and yea, quake3 but all the servers lag way to bad. oh yea, and bunny hopping isnt cheating if you didnt know  <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
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