R_drawviewmodel '0' Or '1'?
N1ght
Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15301Members
Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15301Members
<div class="IPBDescription">what do you think</div> i've decided to post this thread because ive played first person shooters for roughly 6 years, and have played without models in most of these games, only in natural selection and more specifically the clan community have i ever discovered that this is classed as an exploit, or lame.
My simple question is why ?
Personally i find the 1.04 models very obscuring and they are more or less an artificial skill cap, the marine guns + muzzle flash reduce your ability to aim and shoot at your enemies. I know their are changes in 1.1 but i would rather focus on 1.04 since the ability to toggle dvm (r_drawviewmodel) is removed in 1.1.
As far as i see it dvm is a preference, i prefer to play without models because i have sometimes done so in previous games, if you like playing with models on then thats great, but what makes you superior to me, and gives you the right to call me a cheater? Models limit your skill, i really cannot recall any other game i have played where models are so obstructive, and i do not understand why people think its only fair to play with something that limits your skill.
Arguements for the forcing of dvm:
'realism' - people say you shouldnt be able to turn weapon models off because it detracts from the realism of the game, well to be honest i don't think marines run round holding their guns obscuring their vision (in real life). And counter strike, blatently the greatest 'realism' mod of all time (whether you like it or not) allows models to be turned off (i know this isn't cs).
'atmosphere' - whether or not i play with or without dvm does in no way shape or form effect your view of the game, or how atmospheric it will seem to you.
There are of course other arguements like 'its sometimes been that way' etc I simply want to know why.
why is it an exploit / lame ?
please don't flame if you disagree, just explain to me why you consider dvm 0 to be an exploit/lame. And please do not bring 1.1 into this, since models are being changed and dvm is no longer an option, its a redundant arguement, i want to focus on 1.04.
(I play in the european section of the NS community, so i cannot speak for other areas of the world and how dvm is viewed)
My simple question is why ?
Personally i find the 1.04 models very obscuring and they are more or less an artificial skill cap, the marine guns + muzzle flash reduce your ability to aim and shoot at your enemies. I know their are changes in 1.1 but i would rather focus on 1.04 since the ability to toggle dvm (r_drawviewmodel) is removed in 1.1.
As far as i see it dvm is a preference, i prefer to play without models because i have sometimes done so in previous games, if you like playing with models on then thats great, but what makes you superior to me, and gives you the right to call me a cheater? Models limit your skill, i really cannot recall any other game i have played where models are so obstructive, and i do not understand why people think its only fair to play with something that limits your skill.
Arguements for the forcing of dvm:
'realism' - people say you shouldnt be able to turn weapon models off because it detracts from the realism of the game, well to be honest i don't think marines run round holding their guns obscuring their vision (in real life). And counter strike, blatently the greatest 'realism' mod of all time (whether you like it or not) allows models to be turned off (i know this isn't cs).
'atmosphere' - whether or not i play with or without dvm does in no way shape or form effect your view of the game, or how atmospheric it will seem to you.
There are of course other arguements like 'its sometimes been that way' etc I simply want to know why.
why is it an exploit / lame ?
please don't flame if you disagree, just explain to me why you consider dvm 0 to be an exploit/lame. And please do not bring 1.1 into this, since models are being changed and dvm is no longer an option, its a redundant arguement, i want to focus on 1.04.
(I play in the european section of the NS community, so i cannot speak for other areas of the world and how dvm is viewed)
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
but lets' think this over in a more logical sense... WHO WOULDN'T WANNA SEE THE UBER SKULK TEETH CHOMPING UP AND DOWN!!!!!111oneone
i mean, it's just frickin cool... even after seeing it since NS came out....
Models limit your skill, i really cannot recall any other game i have played where models are so obstructive, and i do not understand why people think its only fair to play with something that limits your skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... by this argument then wallhacks are a way to remove artificial obstructions that prevent you from killing easier, and should be considered ok. Who are these silly mappers to restrict my view!?
NS is not other mods or other games. The interface is part of the experience. If we wanted people to play without models, we would have saved a ton of dev time and not made them. Pretty much that simple.
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and if you had wanted people to play with such obstructive models you would not have changed them in 1.1?
playing with no sound is not considered cheating, even though the devs spent alot of time creating custom sounds etc, i don't see people complaining about the stopsound command.
I understand what your saying but i find it hard to believe that the interface was intended to be so obstructive like it is in 1.04, therefore shouldn't it be acceptable to turn models off?, i hardly think this can be compared to a wallhack, really.
CS is like playing with airsoft indeed... Firearms, holy S**T it is like your a robot that can take 5+ Headshots from a rifle.
Nice sidestep on the wallhack analogy by the way, I know that one was hard to get around. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> But it's still a completely valid analogy to us. The same way we work to defeat cheats that allow you to see to much via OGC, we work to defeat you seeing too much via model changes. And if a group like CAL doesn't allow something via rules as an exploit, we're not likely to either, as a rule of thumb.
Your work with the team to help build the mod right?
I can see from your perspective you have a hard choice to make... support your fellow gamer's drive to make NS as fun as possible, and keeping everything cheat free.
i know you dont hear this much but i apreciate your work and how much time you put in it. i myself tried to start coding, but i couldnt get it down and was forced to give up on it... but now i really know what those guys go through to make a good game like this.
keep up da good work (whatever you do :-P )
if turning models off was anywhere near comparable to wallhacking then surely the dvm command would have been removed many many patches before i started playing this game.
CAL is an american league i realise, but someone writes their rules like every other league on the planet, what makes this person(s) opinion on models gospel? Clanbase for example has no rules about dvm and thats the biggest ladder in europe, if only the dev team were from europe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I mean the 'the developers want u to play with models on'... NS is a half-life mod, and the developers of half-life put the command r_drawviewmodel 1 into their game, (and it still exists), so who are you to remove that because surely 'the developers of half-life wanted that command in their game'...
anyway i'll stop there cos i could argue this point all day to be honest, 1.1 will nullify my arguement, i know that, but it really does annoy me being branded an exploiter for turning models off in 1.04.
i mean the only arguement so far that bears any weight in my mind is the 'thats the way the devs want you to play it' arguement, and i respect that, but i disagree with it.
And theres no way i can 'win' this arguement really, or even look remotely respectful, i had to have a go though, its just frustrating for me and my clan that dvm has so much stigma attached in my opinion.
thanks for trying to explain it, but i very much doubt anything/anyone willl change my mind, so i guess i'll wait til 1.1 and just hope people stop bashing me and my clan <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
*lets not put cheap scripts in here*
I like the skulk bite model so i dont use it but its clearly giving an avantage over other players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->just explain to me why you consider dvm 0 to be an exploit/lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider it lame cause the game is designed to play with models. Let me explain: when u bite a marine and move/jump a lot in all directions to prevent eating all those HMG bullets, sometimes you have to stop, look where that damn marine is, and bite him again. With dvm 0 you dont have to stop, you clearly see the marine while you munch it. I think it's for balance, to give a chance to marines even if they are in close range.
1. You must have missed the thread(s) about the use of this command, and the protests against the use of it.
2. This thread is a dead horse. We have already beaten it in the past.
The wallhack analogy amuses me. An unobstructed view on the enemies you try to kill is a standard feature in every FPS for a good reason. Looking through walls is not.
EDIT: I've sometimes seen a board that has "sometimes" and "sometimes" on the censor list. NS is sometimes good for surprises. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. R_Drawviewmodel 1 is locked.
2. The skulk bite and LMG anims have been changed so they don't obstruct your view as much.
Regardless, I do not care what your argement is. Changing a cvar, or creating a script, expressly to alter the game in order to make a skill easier for you without altering it's diffculty for others is an exploit. If you can not beat others who don't exploit, without exploiting, you need to reconsider where you stand.
Players that usually played fantasy/action shooters from ID like quake are used to tweaking their gfx for optimized view. You should go to some official q3 tourney and look at their settings. They turned all gfx gimick off that might obstruct the view, field of view settings of 120 degree or more, use very low texture settings so the enemy really pops into your eye on whatever background. Actually their q3 looked more like q1 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. This is not because those players like exploiting, it is because the focus of that game is pure skill, movement, aiming, level control, but not to camp in some dark area of the map. Tweaking those settings is a natural habbit of those players, in no way it could ever be exploting or even cheating to turn models/guns of.
Then we have the realism shooter fan, he surely played CS and various other HL mods. For him hiding in shadows or getting the first shot by sneaking up on someone from behind is a vital part of the game. From his pov all view obstructions, graphic effects or models, are ment to be in the game for tactical reasons, not to make the game look nice.
Now those 2 players meet each other in a new game, NS. Of course the quake player turned dvm off, why should he not do that? It's an option available to everyone, it's not a 3rd party tool turning off walls or sth similar. But as soon as player#2 realizes that player#1 is "exploiting", he'll call him a cheater. Player#1 thinks that player#1 is a retard for saying that instead of turning dvm off as well.
I don't think you can blame player#1 for turning off dvm, nor can you call him a cheater or exploiter. It is a matter of opinion. But you can blame the devs for not locking dvm right fromt he start (ift hey share player#2's opinion).
(and no counter-strike isnt 'realism' try rainbow 6 (i.e. u cant survive a TMP shot in the head)...as for that sound related idea, thats giving yourself a disadvantage, but the models are giving you an advantage)
If you think tracking/hitting things behind muzzle flash and biting things around you with your teeth blocking your view are luck , you are sadly mistaken. It is a time refined skill, hence why there are clan players who can walk onto a server and still kill 99% of everything that comes at them, while there are others (like myself) who chomp once and get lost in a circle. It has to do with how well someone can develop skills with spatial awareness in game, figure out opponents patterns, and internally calculate where to bite/shoot next -all of which are skills that you wouldn't have to develop as much if you played sans-models. It only comes down to luck if you leave room for it.
Using an analogy, I could say turning your monitor off while playing increases skill requirements <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Example: Operation Flashpoint. Iron-Sight aiming is crucial, realistic and rewarding. The models make sense.
Example: Skulk Bite. Might look cool to some, has no foundation in realism. The model does not make sense.
The compromise here is to let people have a choice. You guys losing money on games or what ?
Balancing via models is IMO not the way to go.
That would be increasing skill requirements but not developing the skills that the developers intended you to learn. You might learn how to hit skulks like a blind ninja master using only your uber sound system. ;P Leaving your models on puts the skill requirement at what the game was designed for. If you want to be the blind ninja, go ahead and rock my socks, I'd give you 100 cookies. It's when someone blows my brains out because muzzle flash isn't there, or they bite me that I'm lacking teeth that I get upset. Why? Because they're making the game easier than it's meant to be, unlike someone who would willfuly make it harder by turning their monitor off.
/me runs off to try killing skulks in the dark
Why though should i have to play like you?
Just because i would rather play with models off im suddenly a lame exploiter... thats what i find totally ridiculous. Just because you have chosen to play the game with the default settings, you have in turn taken the assumed moral high ground, my entire point in this thread is why do you (in general) assume you have a right to bash me for choosing to play with models off.
Just going with the opinion of the masses isn't exactly a reason, everyone used to think the earth was flat, and when someone said it was round people used to call him crazy...
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The interesting thing here is that how can you _ever know_ that the person who killed you is not cheating in some way, shape or form ?
Why worry about something that you cannot know for certain ?
If someone is using something that gives a ridiculous advantage like an aim-bot (making the game very much un-fun for you) that is one story. I hope we can all agree though that using something that gives you a small edge (removing models) is not the same thing.
I'm just not sure I understand why some are so in love with the ideal that everyone has to play with an equal-hand. That'll not happen...comp-systems..network latency etc etc
If you read a book or watch a movie, do you care about the artist's intention? Are you required to find out what the creator wants you to feel before you do?
No. In all other artforms you are free to enjoy it in every way YOU desire. I can understand the arguments about unfair side effects in a multiplayer environment, but I don't see why the intentions of the creators should have any more relevance than the intentions of movie directors or novel authors. It's funny to ask them from time to time, but usually their creations are received and interpreted without their interference.