Baseline Commander Guide
Elrond
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8923Members
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8923Members
<div class="IPBDescription">.. grateful for comments!</div> i wrote this for members of the OwP, and for players on BYNS, who had spent some time playing as aliens and as marines, but not had a stab at commanding. i would be grateful for you guys to take a look and provide a bit of an editorial role. if i have made a glaringly obvious mistake, please let me know. grateful for opinions too.
<a href='http://www.tbd-uk.com/elf/comm/comm.htm' target='_blank'>Elrond's basic commander guide</a>
<a href='http://www.tbd-uk.com/elf/comm/comm.htm' target='_blank'>Elrond's basic commander guide</a>
Comments
You might also want to address ip placement. Placing two ips right next to each other is a very common and also very lethal mistake. A single skulk can easily cover two adjacent ips and kill them both and any marines that may spawn while he's there. The ips should be against a wall, across the room from each other, the armory, and the comm chair. This way a marine spawning in one ip has a clear shot at the other ip and any skulks munching on it (who should be facing away, if the ip is against a wall). Also the comm can jump out of the chair and save them if necessary without becoming lunch himself. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Make sure you put in strategies about phasegates, and how enormously important they are.
GG on the Guide compadre <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe it's just me, but I find it incredibly easy for a skulk to sit up on the wall and chomp on the IP and all of my marines spawning in at the same time.
QUOTE (Welder @ Jun 26 2003, 11:33 PM)
The ips should be against a wall, across the room from each other, the armory, and the comm chair.
Maybe it's just me, but I find it incredibly easy for a skulk to sit up on the wall and chomp on the IP and all of my marines spawning in at the same time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, but skulks can also "hover" on an ip that is away from any walls, hitting it and marines coming through it with ease. My reasoning for placing it against a wall is to perhaps catch some of the those dumber or lazier skulks that will simply bite it from the most convenient angle.
Under #39
GREAT, great, great guide. I will be bookmarking that as well.
Anyways, you totally neglected weapons upgrades. Rushing level 2 weapons upgrades early on can prove lethal against the alien team. The standard vanilla skulk will go down in about 1 second of concentrated fire, and the carapaced skulk loses a LOT of his advantage.
With three spawns and level 2 weapons marines, most of the time you can just spam rambo's onto the alien resource nodes or hives until you win. Later in the game, when you complement your marines with armor upgrades, they'll become even more unstoppable.
There's also a bit of a downside to motion tracking that most people don't consider: when marines have it, they fall into the defensive. A LOT. It's a psycological effect; motion tracking complements defending, because you know where aliens are trying to go at all times. However, as the marine commander, you shouldn't be worried about keeping track of alien movement - you should be worried about CONTROLLING alien movement and making them go exactly where you want them to. If you get MT and get too defensive, the slippery slope can start sliding with the alien team and soon enough you'll have fade's knocking on your door. Really, motion tracking isn't needed if you're smart about scanning, talking, and waypointing. Usually if a marine is doing what I'm telling him to do, I'll scan ahead and waypoint an alien laying in ambush. If marines are defending a critical location, I'll speak up and tell them over voicecomm if an alien is on the way ("Skulks incomming from Docking Wing entrance!"). After the resources start flowing in - which shouldn't take long if you are efficient in getting your upgraded marines to attack, attack, attack - you can get motion tracking quite quickly, as well.
Like I said before, I find it's always better to use strategy to dictate alien movement. In ns_eclipse, for example, when aliens start in Eclipse Hive, by securing South Loop early on the marine team can both a) be able to take south loop, horseshoe, and maintenence resources with little difficulty and b) will concentrate alien activity on that area. Instead of harassing your resource nodes like they should be, aliens will be preoccupied trying to take down your South Loop base (since they know it provides a good point to stage a siege on CC). Sometimes you can even take Station Access node without problems, since they'll be so busy trying to take down your base at SL. Taking things a step further, aliens will probably try to combat your South Loop base by building defense chambers in the vents over Power Subgenerator. S, by anticipating this and getting a siege up in SL, you can usually blow up these defense chambers and now the aliens won't have their carapace for some time =). By now aliens WILL be trying to harass your nodes, since they realize it's all they can do, and it's at this point that you outfit jetpacks and HMG's and blitzkreig their hive at Eclipse. The hive goes down, the beeping commences, and the aliens die. Game over man, game over - and without MT the whole time.
i'm not sure if the word 'whilst' is used appropriately everywhere though.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
gj, anyhoo!
Poor little Elrond, he just wanted to sound smart <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
it is much more effective to create a mine field around the things you actually want to protect (marines, structures)
The best way to use mines is to give marines a chance to kill the alien first, and if they miss the alien will still die because the marine can dance around the mine field.
I remember a game I was commanding on nancy, we had a base in mess hall and I was buying alot of mines. One of my marines was complaining that mines aren't a good primary defense. I agreed with him completely and told him that HE was the primary defense, the mines are there in case the marines can't handle things.
one more thing: 90% of marines place mines too close to structures when creating a mine field, you have to keep in mind the skulk bite range is like 3 feet, and also give yourself room to "hide behind the mines" if you come under attack.
as Elrond mentioned in his impressive guide, Gorges anFades may trigger them
with their ranged attacks easily.
I am sick ob dying while rearming at base because some smartie placed a mine under my feet.
Shure, it is quite useful at the beginning to hold of skulks, but it is in fact a sign of poor defense capabilities
if you have to rely on such tactics.... Not to mention that the best way to stop a skulk at the very begining is a
bored Marine, to quote Elrond.
Just think about it! would you place a mine close to your tent to guard your field encampment if you were a real soldier???
Poor little Elrond, he just wanted to sound smart <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
see? i have no illusions of intelligence so have no need for extratemporaneous sid pro quo erstwhile ergo prima fasci.... YEAH!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
no, really, my quibble was super super tiny complaint against a much bigger good. it's a good guide. i like the purdy pictures!!
Anyway
Great work on the turret placement. There are a lot of commanders who should read this.
as Elrond mentioned in his impressive guide, Gorges anFades may trigger them
with their ranged attacks easily.
I am sick ob dying while rearming at base because some smartie placed a mine under my feet.
Shure, it is quite useful at the beginning to hold of skulks, but it is in fact a sign of poor defense capabilities
if you have to rely on such tactics.... Not to mention that the best way to stop a skulk at the very begining is a
bored Marine, to quote Elrond.
Just think about it! would you place a mine close to your tent to guard your field encampment if you were a real soldier??? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in clan games you do both. If you don't mine AND have a base guard, then you will most likely lose. I speak from experience. As a skulk, trying to chase down and bite a marine hopping around like mad while also in a middle of a mine field is HARD. Not to mention he's shooting you as well.
Chopper: I disagree about MT making you defensive. I use it to help my offense no matter if I am comm or a soldier. It like doubles my life expentancy on the field, and I think any commander (NS or real life) would tell you that he'd KILL to be able to know exact and real time enemy troop movement information for a one time cost.
in the first few minutes is deadly for most public server Marine-team.
Sad but true.
Good news is that this happens quite seldom on publics.
Bad news: Good teamwork on Marineside is even harder to find.
Oh, I fully agree with you in the MT-issue.
Any commanding officer would sell his mother for something like it!
True, MT doesn't make EVERYONE defensive. I myself also use it to offensively puruse the aliens. And yes, it does make marines live longer. But on the most part, the majority of players you will come across in pubs will sit on their butts when they have motion tracking and wait. These players like to get kills, and they know that by defending an area heavily attacked by aliens they will get kills.
For example, I played against a marine team who used the South Loop bumrush strategy with motion tracking, and no early upgrades. They controlled South Loop for the majority of the game suing mines and turrets, and even the resources behind it. However, with some cleverly-placed vent defense chambers and heavy skulk patrol, we kept the marines from ever advancing from South Loop into North Core Access, or from Marine Main into Triad. The marines were happy to sit on their butts and use MT to take potshots on aliens from South Loop, but never ever tried to advance into Computer Core until the hive was halfway done. And when they did (quite obviously the commander said "THEY HAVE A HIVE UP RUSH IN!!"), I had offese and defense chambers as well as lerks littered liberally around the area and they didn't have a chance (not even their jetpacks). We got the 2nd hive up, owned South Loop, and won the game shortly thereafter.
Moral of the story - a little fear is a good thing. If only the commander knows where the aliens are, and the marines have no way of knowing without his imput, then they'll be more likely to follow orders. I'll bet that same team, without their Motion Hacking, could have easily moved into CC and taken that from us with some weapons upgrades and some cajones. But that is purely speculative <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Second, you should write in cat sized letters that <span style='color:red'>UPGRADING YOUR MARINES WEAPONS AND ARMOR AT THE ARMS LAB IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY</span> like Chopper Dave mentioned. This should probably be written at the start of your whole guide so newbies don't dismiss it. Not upgrading your marines has to be the second most common newbie mistake next to placing mines on walls all wrong. I don't think I'm even exaggerating when I say skulks drop like flies at the beginning with your lvl 0 LMG, but once they get lvl 3 carapace, they will totally obliterate your team if you don't have upgrades. I've seen it happen many, many times. The 3rd most common mistake might be building a TF in your base at start, but I won't get into that.
You might also want to consider explaining the JP/HMG strategy in detail. Everyone needs a win every now and then, right? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, it's a good guide. Shame 2.0 is so close.
It's been my (limited) experience that I can get Marines to places much faster with MT. They move more confidently, for better or worse.
It also is invaluable to chase down gorges since you can easily tell which blip is a gorge by the movement speed. If a gorge wanders about without an escort, you can be sure I'll dispatch a marine or two to chase him.
Perhaps it's just been the people I play with, but MT leads to a more offensive game, not defensive.
In any case, I can see the "MT is bad" argument. Perhaps given there are valid arguments for both sides, Elrond should just not comment too much on MT.
Re: mines, you drop a couple packs right at the start and probably never replace them; this is why fades smoking your whole team is never a problem. I <i>really really</i> hate the mines-on-doors philosophy, because it essentially wastes all but one mine in the pack. A skulk blows a single mine, he dies and respawns for free, and now there's a whole in your mines that the skulks can pour right through. I want to make any skulk intent on eating an IP or an obs pay for it in HP so he's easy to finish off, especially since I'll often do duty as basebitch myself.
Re: IP placement, I put them (and all other structures) close together. That way, it's easy and efficient to ring mines around them.
deterrants are much more effective, imho. it's all about having ppl who know how to mine properly, and having a comm who replaces holes religiously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The best games are the games where you really don't care if you win or lose, because playing has been so much fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can relate, I just played my first true command game... but we still got blown into little tiny pieces after a 45 minute fight. I don't care, both teams had so much fun that the next game felt really boring for the first five minutes. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that mine placement is good to hold off the skulks for a good 5 minutes until you can get the resources flowing and weapon upgrades pending. Of course, I love that HA+Welder "wall of death" tactic. I've never used it, but I've been a victim of it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Whilst I found it a bit lacking in some details, over all it was very good.
^
(hehehe)