A Way To Fix Hmg Vs Hive And Structures

VulgR · June 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Something I noticed from changelog</div> Hi,

I know I'm not a PTs/Vets but with the current feedback from 1.1t changelog it's clear that HMG is the last of the "major" balance issues. One way you could fix it is by simply giving a "different" umbra to hive that doesn't allow "bigger caliber" bullets to pass thru so the tiny LMG bullets can pass thru and it doesn't negate rushing. As for HMG against structures I think its not a problem at all...

Anyway feel free to give your ideas/suggestions to solve this issue.

Thanks for reading...

*S1mpL*

Edit: Spelling aura for umbra (WTH was i thinking <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> )

HellSpawn · June 2003

perhaps just making the hmg clip a lil smaller like 100 bullets....or putting a cool down time on the hmg so there is a vulnerability to it....

Ollj · June 2003

give the hive just a small vulnerable point. hmg spreads more, especially with jp.

Aaron · June 2003

I think the spinup/spindown time, plus the innaccuracy when moving will be a good solution for the HMG.

Decimator · June 2003

Or hmgs could just do quarter damage to the hive....

PFCNublar · June 2003

I object to cooldown rates. See this, if in TFC, where there is a cooldown rate, try to kill a HWG when he is going berzerk with his weapon and he can actually shoot for [bleep]. Unstoppable untill he either runs outta ammo/gets what he wanted. In NS, nothing in unstopable. only the onos is. HA is dip[bleep] [bleep] against that which is bigger than it (IE: onos). HA/HMG = pwned by onos because 1 HMG can't kill an onos. maybe 2, definately 3. Point is, in TFC, the HWG is an onos with a .50 cal machine gun(HMG) on the back...that doesn't exist in NS. Just make it do less damage against structures (cut it in half) and maybe do what starcraft did. 100% dmg against small targets. 75% against medium. 50% against large. and also, if they have HMGs, you should have at least a fade by then (two minutes for armory up, even after you get the 60 res for that, going from building to uping...and then 22, or 23 me forgets, for each HMG). Damage based on size rocks. do the same thing to the GL, except invert it with 100 to large, 75 to medium, 50 to small, and then increase the splash and range a bit. should be fun with that. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Windelkron · June 2003

heh, I suggested pretty much the EXACT same thing, but in a PM to coil <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Chack · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HellSpawn @ Jun 30 2003, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> perhaps just making the hmg clip a lil smaller like 100 bullets....or putting a cool down time on the hmg so there is a vulnerability to it....  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I like the idea of cooldown / overheat, it could perfectly fix the issue.

Windelkron · June 2003

you can also read <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=36191&st=15' target='_blank'>this</a> for a more in depth discussion on how to change the HMG. Keep in mind that NS guns are not supposed to overlap each other in terms of usage....

im_lost · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>do the same thing to the GL, except invert it with 100 to large, 75 to medium, 50 to small, and then increase the splash and range a bit. should be fun with that.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Increase the splash? I thought pt's were complaining that the gl did too much splash damage.

SandmanSA · June 2003

Ok, first, so meny people complained about the marines using thier jetpacks with the heavy machine guns while attacking a hive was to much of an unfair advantage so someone made a plugin to put a damper on how long you can use the jetpack. Now, it's just the heavy machine gun that is center of attention saying it's to powerful, tone it down.

Well I never hear anyone complaining about fades with an onos giving them the primal scream becoming almost unstoppable even to the strongest of the marine defenses. Why is that? I think it's because more players tend to like the alien team more because the aliens don't need to depend on a comander to provide them with anything.

Sure, a skulk, gorge or lerk stands very little chance at surviving a head to head combat with a marine and his HMG, It's to these people I say, start learning a new way to munch on the marine's instead of trying to change a very fine game. I say, leave the marine weapons alone. They are already weak enough as it is.

If you want realisum, go play CS or something like it but NS is a game that rewards "team" effort. Not much realisum here. Show me anything documented that says aliens like these actualy exist and I will change my statement.

ZERG · June 2003

I really don't see a reason why the HMG has to be nerfed, it already costs 25 a pop. It's like medpacks, people complain about it, but its rather the fact that the marine team can actually afford suiting up all their players with it.

But I really don't know what Flayra has in mind for the HMGs role. Seems PTs are complaining mainly because it takes out structures just as well as a GL. Just halve the damage then. So what if the resulting damage is still better than an LMG? Those hmgs cost 25 res each why not let it do a LITTLE more damage than the LMG.

Then others complain about how easy it is to tear through small alien types. I say its plain redundant to use HMGs when LMGs/Shotties do just fine against those types. It's like battlecruisers against zerglings, why use those when firebats can do the job much better? Why? Because you could afford too! And since 1.1 has no restrictions on evolutions, then if you are being owned by HMGs and all of you are skulks then the marines deserve to mop you up. Besides, I would like to point out that 3/3 vanilla marines are significantly stronger than their alien counterparts, the skulk and lerk, and become on par with fades.

I really don't want to see marines go into a class type system. It would make marine pub play too rigid. It is hard enough as it is with the current system for people to stick together and so making them only useful when their equipment is in harmony just makes things worse for pub play. I can foresee a scenario right now. You gave a HMG to marine A and B and a GL to marine C. C walks off to die somewhere and so A and B are severely crippled in their mission because C screwed up.

briDge · June 2003

You all are saying "gee JP HMG is easy to stop if you just have 3 onos 4 fades and 4 lerks!" That's stupid. The problem with JP HMG is that a single marine, equipped with not much more than 40 res' worth of stuff can take down at LEAST one hive. and it does not take a long time to tech this. if the aliens get 3 hives then of course its not going to stop anything. But in the mid game when the aliens are still struggling to get that 2nd hive up, they have zero counters to a jetpacker. No webs, no fades, nothing.

In my opinion the HMG should have terrible recoil and even worse accuracy when firing and jetpacking simultaneously. I'm not sure how easy it would be to do this but it would also be cool to have the HMG push marines who are firing it and using the jetpack backwards from the recoil. Either that, or simply give the aliens a counter to jetpacks with 1 hive, because right now they have none. Perhaps webs should be doable with 1 hive, but the number of webs is limited to a very small number, like 6 or 7 webs. Then with a 2nd hive the cap on webs is increased to what it usually is.

ZERG · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But in the mid game when the aliens are still struggling to get that 2nd hive up, they have zero counters to a jetpacker. No webs, no fades, nothing.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm speaking in terms of 1.1 not 1.04. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

briDge · June 2003

where can I look at this 1.1 changelog

Nil_IQ · June 2003

Um, why not just reduce bullet damage against hives? Dont <i>increase</i> the damage for anything, just <i>decrease</i> bullet damage to hives by something like 6x. This would (hopefully) make taking down a hive with HMGs less practical (or at least give aliens some breathing space for a counter attack, assuming this isnt thier only hive. Well they have hmgs, in 1.1 they should have another hive by then :/ ). Or they would just bring GLs, i.e, MORE teamwork, YAY!

Also, Flayra should provide everyone with free headsets so they can use voicecomm <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> (I kid, go buy one, they're about ?7 now for a cheap set)

ZERG · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ Jun 30 2003, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Um, why not just reduce bullet damage against hives? Dont <i>increase</i> the damage for anything, just <i>decrease</i> bullet damage to hives by something like 6x. This would (hopefully) make taking down a hive with HMGs less practical (or at least give aliens some breathing space for a counter attack, assuming this isnt thier only hive. Well they have hmgs, in 1.1 they should have another hive by then :/ ). Or they would just bring GLs, i.e, MORE teamwork, YAY!

Also, Flayra should provide everyone with free headsets so they can use voicecomm <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> (I kid, go buy one, they're about ?7 now for a cheap set)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I personally don't think ANYTHING should be done. So what if the marines can take it down quick? Maybe the aliens should invest in some decent defense and as far as I know OCs are snipers in 1.1. Naturally, you would want to try to take out the defenses first so the main objective becomes easier. If you don't then the aliens can simply retake it since they still "own" the area with all their OCs and whatnot.

OCs are speedbumps. Use them. Why must people complain about the hive being taken out quickly and being unable to respond? Isn't a defenseless marine base just about the same? Let's give IPs -80% bite damage too then.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>where can I look at this 1.1 changelog </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The changelog is in the beta discussion forum. You got a lot to catch up on if you are just aware of it now...

briDge · June 2003

you're right I do. In fact I have so much to catch up on I dont even know where the beta discussion forums are.

I heard a bit about 1.1, and I also heard people talking about how great it was, but I went to the forums here and couldn't find the beta ones so I gave up quickly (because I'm lazy) and went back to playing 1.04.

Do I need special access to see the beta forums? or are they just on a different website....

DarkFrost · June 2003

the beta forum is inside the general discusion forum, the very top "thread"

Rhuadin · June 2003

[EDIT] Disregard post, I'm dumb, hive umbra was taken out. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> [/EDIT]

I agree that I do find it somewhat disturbing that Aliens can rush, and yet Marines can't. Spawn camping has already been taken care of -- Aliens spawn under umbra and Marines spawn from several locations/distress beacon. However, Marines can no longer rush the hive with LMGs, but aliens can still skulk rush. I find this disturbing because it doesn't seem balanced to me (i.e. one team can rush but the other can't.).

What was the original reason that hive umbra was put into place? Is that reason obsolete now, because of later 1.1 changes?

Rhuadin

MeLeNkO · June 2003

i think the HMG is fine as it is and shouldnt be changed aleins have a farelly big advantage now in my opneion lol

Dread · June 2003

I think HMG would be pretty great if we just give it decent 'cooldown/up' effect(so it takes a bit to start firing) and it does only 3/4 dmg vs. structures.

Lazer · June 2003

Here's my view on it:

-First of all, do NOT give the HMG "crazy recoil". This will just screw it over like they did to CS.

-Why is it so hard to figure out what to do with the HMG? If it does too much to structures, reduce that a little. Don't make it less than the LMG, but go reduce it.

-Why was the hive health reduced? I never saw a reason for that, and then this problem was countered by having the hive counter with umbra and all the spawning aliens get umbra around them too? Then you say this is to prevent spawn camping? If aliens let marines spawn camp them, they obviously did somethign wrong. Plus, when the aliens are getting spawn camped, that usually means the marine base is empty or close to it.

-The 1.04 HMG seemed ok to me, but maybe its because the hive health wasn't just randomly reduced by about half.

So basically what I think is that most of these problems occured by screwing with the hive's health, then throwing in umbra and stuff like that. Hives that have umbra is a Lerk's job. It's a tactic I've learned a little while back and it works.

Superfly · June 2003

Do you think that in the future overheating guns will be an issue?

Thats all..

NSCypher · June 2003

I think overheating is probably the best idea - it's not a nerf, the HMG is still an effective meatgrinder against weaker aliens and could take down chambers in a few long bursts, but it couldn't take a hive down without several overheats and reloads. This would stop HMGs tearing through a hive unless there is a lage-ish group of them, and give low-level aliens a chance to rush rambo HMGers while they can't fire.

MrGunner · June 2003

If you have a couple lerks guarding the hive(s) with umbra and spikes they can take down a jp/hmg quite easily. Especially simple with 1.1.

A Way To Fix Hmg Vs Hive And Structures

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