Boys And Their Toys Ns 1.1
CplDavis
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Adapt today or die tomarrow.</div> Give a child one toy and he will long for another. Spoil a child with many toys and he will eventually grow fond of one of them, his favorite special toy and cast others wastefully away.
This could be used to describe the Kahraa and the Frontiersmen.
It would seem that with current restrictions, when the marines’ win they win decisively. With full upgrades and with a 2 hive lockdown. They easily crush the one hive limited aliens. It is very one sided. However when the aliens win, the steepness of the one sided battle is not as great. Considering the Kahraa must get and then maintain at least 2 hives to win (early skulk rushes excluded) This means that they must first achieve at least 66% of full potential combat efficiency with 2 upgrade towers to win. During this time, the marine players are never restricted on upgrades. Even if the aliens control 3 hives that does not pose any tech limit on the marines. Statistically one could say that this is why it is harder for an alien team to win.
Ergo, (heehee) The Kahraa are the one toy child from the start. They must fight to get a second hive to get anything more in terms of upgrade goodies. The spoiled boy marines are able to get whatever they want assuming they have the res to spend. They get a virtual shopping spree at Toys ‘R Us at the beginning of each round.
So how do these sides cope? Well it would seem the Aliens make do with a D chamber/sometimes M chamber and struggle and work hard to get that second hive and thus more toys. The marines even though spoiled with gift of “The sky/res is the limit” theory seem to find the JP/HMG to be their favorite toy in the toy store. Forget all the other toys they can choose from at the beginning and forget any other attempt at a different strategy. We all know what happens if the Comm builds a TF in the base or try to implement/try a different strategy. He gets ridiculed and ejected faster then an Outwar kiddie in the NS forums.
The Aliens make the D chamber choice more out of necessity then anything else. The marines simply don’t accept anything else they don’t like, like any rich kid who has everything made available to him.
Oooh how the rich marine is going to get his arse thrashed in v1.1 when the aliens do not have to wait hours to attain a 66% combat effectiveness rate. With multiple gorges, the Alien infestation will even more quickly spread. The game will live up to it’s name. Adapt or die.
Now going on pure human instinct here the marine players have become like the US military going into the Vietnam conflict. Having adopted a “perfect winnable war doctrine” from WW2 and Korea, they thought nothing of it when they deployed over to Vietnam. A big and costly mistake. For another fictional example, why did the Colonial Marines and Mobile Infantry do so poorly against the ALIENS and Arachnids? They were using and relying upon a combat doctrine not suited for the task they were up against. We all laughed at the poor Starship Troopers getting mauled in the movie. The current marine players have fallen straight into this same trap. Just as the current marine players have developed and relied upon their precious winning JP/HMG combo they will surely have “problems” in v1.1.
We humans don’t like change and it’s going to hurt us. Current marine players are so steadfast with what single strategy to use. So many of marine players are biased for or against certain ideas. With v1.1 released it might be better to be a newbie with no experience with the game. At least these players will be willing to experiment with all the possible strategies. (Much like we veteran players did so long ago <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
If I were a marine player I would strongly start to pursue other strategies NOW before its too late and you fail utterly in v1.1. I am a mostly marine player and Im scared b/c I feel that there are not enough people that share this opinion in games form my expiriences. Yea you might lose a few times trying ot new ideas today, but hey, Lose a battle Win the War.
Lock n Load Marines b/c with NSv1.1 Flayra is going to blow the flood gates away and a flood of ALien strats will be unlocked. All the fancy shooting in the world wont stop that MUCH earlier horde of Oni from coming and eating you. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
This could be used to describe the Kahraa and the Frontiersmen.
It would seem that with current restrictions, when the marines’ win they win decisively. With full upgrades and with a 2 hive lockdown. They easily crush the one hive limited aliens. It is very one sided. However when the aliens win, the steepness of the one sided battle is not as great. Considering the Kahraa must get and then maintain at least 2 hives to win (early skulk rushes excluded) This means that they must first achieve at least 66% of full potential combat efficiency with 2 upgrade towers to win. During this time, the marine players are never restricted on upgrades. Even if the aliens control 3 hives that does not pose any tech limit on the marines. Statistically one could say that this is why it is harder for an alien team to win.
Ergo, (heehee) The Kahraa are the one toy child from the start. They must fight to get a second hive to get anything more in terms of upgrade goodies. The spoiled boy marines are able to get whatever they want assuming they have the res to spend. They get a virtual shopping spree at Toys ‘R Us at the beginning of each round.
So how do these sides cope? Well it would seem the Aliens make do with a D chamber/sometimes M chamber and struggle and work hard to get that second hive and thus more toys. The marines even though spoiled with gift of “The sky/res is the limit” theory seem to find the JP/HMG to be their favorite toy in the toy store. Forget all the other toys they can choose from at the beginning and forget any other attempt at a different strategy. We all know what happens if the Comm builds a TF in the base or try to implement/try a different strategy. He gets ridiculed and ejected faster then an Outwar kiddie in the NS forums.
The Aliens make the D chamber choice more out of necessity then anything else. The marines simply don’t accept anything else they don’t like, like any rich kid who has everything made available to him.
Oooh how the rich marine is going to get his arse thrashed in v1.1 when the aliens do not have to wait hours to attain a 66% combat effectiveness rate. With multiple gorges, the Alien infestation will even more quickly spread. The game will live up to it’s name. Adapt or die.
Now going on pure human instinct here the marine players have become like the US military going into the Vietnam conflict. Having adopted a “perfect winnable war doctrine” from WW2 and Korea, they thought nothing of it when they deployed over to Vietnam. A big and costly mistake. For another fictional example, why did the Colonial Marines and Mobile Infantry do so poorly against the ALIENS and Arachnids? They were using and relying upon a combat doctrine not suited for the task they were up against. We all laughed at the poor Starship Troopers getting mauled in the movie. The current marine players have fallen straight into this same trap. Just as the current marine players have developed and relied upon their precious winning JP/HMG combo they will surely have “problems” in v1.1.
We humans don’t like change and it’s going to hurt us. Current marine players are so steadfast with what single strategy to use. So many of marine players are biased for or against certain ideas. With v1.1 released it might be better to be a newbie with no experience with the game. At least these players will be willing to experiment with all the possible strategies. (Much like we veteran players did so long ago <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
If I were a marine player I would strongly start to pursue other strategies NOW before its too late and you fail utterly in v1.1. I am a mostly marine player and Im scared b/c I feel that there are not enough people that share this opinion in games form my expiriences. Yea you might lose a few times trying ot new ideas today, but hey, Lose a battle Win the War.
Lock n Load Marines b/c with NSv1.1 Flayra is going to blow the flood gates away and a flood of ALien strats will be unlocked. All the fancy shooting in the world wont stop that MUCH earlier horde of Oni from coming and eating you. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
1) Aliens are not stopped by hive lock-downs, and can tech much faster. Marines can no longer sit on their thumbs and tech up in "security."
2) JP/HMG will not win every time in 1.1, so expand your tactical repertoire *now* rather than later. (:
2 hive lockdowns on either side, get... boring
lol same here <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
But thanks for the cliff notes version coil <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Damn pesky bugs ate all are res nodes then ran like the pussys they were! Lucky Davis had his grenade launcher so we could flush em' out then let my trusty boomstick finish them off!
Then we locked the walking turds down in that noname hive and seiged the hell out of em' from Aux Gen! HAHA those were the days.... yep ns_nam... or was it ns_nancy? Hmmm... a wee to much firewater for me tonight......
(this is a dramatization of me, and is somewhat accurate <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
w00t.
Just food for thought. I still think NS still has a ways to go before it becomes truly perfect in my mind.
Hmm, that is true, but you know what? Hand grenades would kick ****. Every vanilla marine has like 3 hand grenades (think M67 Frag with a killing radius of 5 meters and hurting radius of 15 meters) in the lovely 4th slot! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. are hand grenades in 1.1 anyways?
[/rant]
Alright, contructive post. ok, marines currently rely on two things i see on pubs.
CURRENTLY:
1: Bunny hopping
2: at least 3 res nodes <== must have
3: at least one hive locked down <=less vital, but still important
Aliens rely on this:
1: gorge with half a brain so he doesn't rambo like a madman and gets killed
2: skulks who know how to circle strafe
3: early rush to disrupt/win the round
IN 1.1:
Marines:
1: Teamwork by the tonnage <== must have (no more bunny hopping ramboes)
2: 2-3 res nodes <== easy, electricy rocks or so it seems
3: Constant pressure on alien rts/hive <== oni will come if you don't
Aliens:
1: Multiple gorges tending to multiple tasks
2: Res nodes are easier for aliens to get for some strange reason <== lots of nodes near hive areas
3: pressure on marines to keep them from expanding <== vital to buy time for oni
4: get two hives fast <== less vital, early oni rush = win
Looks like there is gonna be a lot of voice comm and multi tasking done by the team and comm
THEORIES DERIVED FROM BETA FORUM
Just food for thought. I still think NS still has a ways to go before it becomes truly perfect in my mind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough* umbraaroundspawningaliensandhive *cough*
And if you have a problem with the TF under the hive, get a skulk to chew it while you heal him, and maybe even make an OC to help.
Thats what Im gonna call it when i see someone get Devoured. "Happymealed."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol I dont care what new ways marines come up with. Just so long as I dont become the first to get "happymealed" by the onos.
Thats what Im gonna call it when i see someone get Devoured. "Happymealed." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, thats very good <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> . I'll be the one "happymealing" the unsuspecting 'rine <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chopper Dave Posted on Jun 24 2003, 12:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just food for thought. I still think NS still has a ways to go before it becomes truly perfect in my mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice how you said "...truly perfect in my mind." You have to consider that the game is made for everyone, not just yourself.
That and the fact that "perfection" is an impossibilty. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ahah, the title is a bit odd
Can we have girls too?
When a team of Marines secure areas, rush a hive, lock down a hive, defend spawn, build a res point or simply move to a position, the commander should (theoritically) make the calls. Yet again and again a good public game is ruined when a players who's new to the game finds out how to go commander, yet has no idea what to do.
Or when someone who wants to stuff around ruins the game for everyone else as commander.
On the alien side, we have a totaly different basis of operations. The aliens are individuals, no team work or dependace on others (except the gorge) and we see that the aliens are really a team of killers, hunting down the marines and occasionaly getting together a group and rushing certain marine operatives.
Yes, it is true, the aliens do depend some what on the gorge, lerk and fade, yet we also see that this is a team to be reckoned with even as an individual.
What my main point i am trying to get accross is, that Marines require more team work than the aliens, and Marines are better off working as a team, though a team of aliens working together is a good match against the marines. Hence why aliens are better in the long run if you take some external advantages marines have such as bhop, weps, armour, jp, HA, upgrades, hitbox bug when on the alien side we see the aliens with no advantages exept maybe the occassional exp. player who knows how to bhop.
A good strategist (in a public game) would, as marines, command the team on what they should do, where they should go. All they have to do is find the fastest, most effecient ways to access that area or lay mines... build etc. and act as human sentry guns. The game would then be a problem-free fun experience, but also we must take into account that that just won't happen!
An awesome Alien team will act as a team as they should in the first place. The aliens require stalking skills, communication, and even some game-skill. A good alien team will organize a group rush and either sabotage the enemy, infiltrate their positions, destroy key operatives or rush for final victory. We also need a good gorge on the alien side, because yes, the cute little woddling gorge does require some skill <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must remind you, these tactics for a successful team on marines and aliens, the down sides plus ups is for a team that wants to win... this game is about having some fun, so don't take it too seriously, winning isn't everything... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yet that could be debated for some... that winning isn't everything, it's the only thing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
i had a pretty good idea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i read thru it and then coil did the shortened one! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
nice post davis i agree with you totally.... i try never to jp/hmg...
if anything and im comm here is my plan (bear in mind custom maps are my forte)
1.secure every res node i can get my hands on...
2.start teching and make 1 JP/GL for every 3 JP/HMG
this makes a good team turns the JP/GL into a good path cleaner for HA and also aerial support ....
and to be honest it seem to work flawlessly the only drawback being it takes 267 res to do just one squad of that.... so i can only do it well on custom maps where they give you like 20+ res nodes tow ork with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the OC's are not enough ... get a lerk with Carapace up there. He gets instantly healed by the hive ... and his fire ratio is nice against the light armored JP'ers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And my experience on public servers is too, that Aliens have a much higher win rate. Not that I complain about, cause that makes playing Marine much more interesting. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well and on public's there is a very !!! good reason for a skilled comm not to do JP/HMG. To all comms: Ever had to cry for your ressources cause as soon as JP were out, the little Rambo in all of us takes control of your marines, and you dont even know where they are dieing ?
That became a good reason for me as a comm, to upgrade to armor and ammo lvl 2, give jp just for special tasks like guarding Ventilation, Powersilo or take redroom.
If early rushes fail ... then well ... aliens get it by the weldertrain <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
But as everyone knows ... that takes a lot of res ... so marines have to rush the map and get (and HOLD !!!) all the resnodes possible. And that has to happen very fast. Cause as soon as fades are out there ... you wont hold many res far from your bases for long.
And a last ... Marine strategy ... is much more diversified then Alien tactics. With marines you see mainhive relocs, doubleres relocs, hive relocs, HMG/Shotty ground and JP rushes, Weldertrains, sieging ... and so on.
What can Aliens do ? ... Hm ... biterush each attack by the marines down, take a hive, turret spam ... and wait for res to become fade. If it doesn't work and marines got 2 hives, then go lerk and be a persistent thread to their bases.
On public server it is always the way, that Aliens just react on the marines actions. Well just my experience. I hope that Alien strategie will be more varied in NS 1.1
I guess it's a common case of 'what makes you tick', but it's also a community game, and you must also play for fun as if it were a social interaction maybe... hence why you must also get involved with others, and have fun together. Some players play it for the thrill, the dark, dank corridors, not knowing what lerks around the next turn. Sometimes a phew clans/indivduals take the game a bit too seriously and also ruin it for others.
I think JP/HMG is a valid tactic, but whats the point if you *know* you're going to win with it, theres no fun in that. If you're playing the game for statistics then you really shouldn't be there...
Sometimes a commander will want to expirement, instead of JP/HMG he/she might want to try a HA rush, or a gorge may want to get sensory. The problem is, is this counted as wrecking the game for others? I vote no, even though other may not like it, they should really stop playing for the stats, and expirement more, have fun! But, this also brings in the issue: Is the game (1.0) even on both sides enough for expirementational tactics to be used not knowing if you will lose or win. On that point, I vote no, the game is quite unbalanced, hence why I hope 1.1 turns out fair, and fun!
Because "all is fair is war is fun"
Well, the umbra spawn plug in doesn't help much. I can't see it being much better in 1.1.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ahah, the title is a bit odd <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the opening paragraph you see y i called it that.
On a side note:
Ahh they are on to me! *Runs and attempts to hide from the watchful eye of Nem 0.
IN 1.1:
Marines:
1: Teamwork by the tonnage <== must have (no more bunny hopping ramboes)
2: 2-3 res nodes <== easy, electricy rocks or so it seems
3: Constant pressure on alien rts/hive <== oni will come if you don't
Aliens:
1: Multiple gorges tending to multiple tasks
2: Res nodes are easier for aliens to get for some strange reason <== lots of nodes near hive areas
3: pressure on marines to keep them from expanding <== vital to buy time for oni
4: get two hives fast <== less vital, early oni rush = win <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines:
1) Yeah teamwork is Necessary right now if the marines want to win, no question.
2) You should want to get around 4 - 5 res nodes if ya want to tech fast, or have godly marines that kill skulks at the speed of light, netting you some nice res there.
3) Not necessarily the hive, as its almost impossible to spawncamp or kill a hive with a LMG now that the umbra is there automaticly.
Aliens
1) Yup.
2) Somewhat, as you start with 25 res, 15 to gorge, 10 to drop a node, so ya get them fast but they also die fast without cover.
3) If possible your team *Should* keep pressure on them, but taking out elec nodes is tough at 1 hive, and a determined marine squad is hard to stop.
4) Not necessary realy, as it only gives you another chamber+ability, you CAN get oni hive 1 remember? Hives are also VERY easy to get quickly now, so its more on a whim than someone saving up for a hive.
Just food for thought. I still think NS still has a ways to go before it becomes truly perfect in my mind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
early hive rush is extremely hard to do. With the hive umbra and spawn umbra, and last time I checked the hive healed at 30 hp now <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->