Hives Linked To Lifeforms: Discuss!
Chopper_Dave1
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Based on the poll</div> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=35508' target='_blank'>Here's the poll</a>, If you haven't gone already.
I myself voted for the 1.1 version, at it leaves much more room for the Kharaa to strategize. In 1.04, it's way too easy for the marines to lock down in two games, then sit on their hands for the next hour and leave the much more offensive alien team in agony. At the same time, marines have an option for tech rushing (rush HMG, distribute, rush hive) while the aliens don't really have the same ability. Both are fixed in 1.1.
However, the 1.1 system leaves something to be desired, as the aliens are apparently winning a ton, and it takes nothing short of a miracle for the marines to win. I really don't think the problem lies with the aliens on this one, but instead with the marines. Give the marines more tech to counter the aliens. If you want to have the Onos make a regular in-game appearance, maybe now's the time to also implement an "Onos-buster" piece of equipment for the marines to give them a chance. If the aliens have the ability to dynamically react to what the marines are doing (e.g. getting celerity rather than adrenaline because marines are spamming grenades, Onos rushing because marines are sitting on 2 hives but not getting any resources), give the marines an option to dynamically react to what the aliens are doing. Cause right now, all they can do to "counter" is fire up a research cycle which will end 5 minutes later, usually too late to mean anything.
I mean, if an Onos charges into my base, and the "official" counter is a jetpack, what am I suppsoed to do? Research jetpacks? Oh yeah, like that'll help now. Maybe my strategy involved using Heavy Armor, and researching jetpacks would have been too much of a resource drain. Now as a Onos tears up my forces, I can do nothing except watch a little bar fill up, then stop as the Prototype Lab gets mauled. Guess my lack of foresight made me lose...but where's the fun in that? Aliens don't need to predict what marines do in 1.1, and neither should marines. It needs to be about what team does the best job of reacting to each other, and uses strategies to outwit and outdo each other - in other words, like a real RTS. In 1.04, it's rock-paper-scissors for both sides invovled, which is bad. In 1.1, it's not rock-paper-scissors for the aliens, which is better, but it is still rock-paper-scissors for the marines, which is still bad. I'm not asking for "hard" counters, I'm asking for proper "soft" counters. Expansion > tech, tech > middle road, middle road > expansion - that's all 1.04, Flay. This basic system of counters doesn't apply to the aliens anymore, because you've given them better options for teching. It's time to give the marines the same option and make the game better, or we might as well go back to the 1.04 hive-dependent system.
I'm too tired to type any more, if you want me to hear me continue rambling on about this, feel free to give <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=34850' target='_blank'>this</a> a nice reread.
I myself voted for the 1.1 version, at it leaves much more room for the Kharaa to strategize. In 1.04, it's way too easy for the marines to lock down in two games, then sit on their hands for the next hour and leave the much more offensive alien team in agony. At the same time, marines have an option for tech rushing (rush HMG, distribute, rush hive) while the aliens don't really have the same ability. Both are fixed in 1.1.
However, the 1.1 system leaves something to be desired, as the aliens are apparently winning a ton, and it takes nothing short of a miracle for the marines to win. I really don't think the problem lies with the aliens on this one, but instead with the marines. Give the marines more tech to counter the aliens. If you want to have the Onos make a regular in-game appearance, maybe now's the time to also implement an "Onos-buster" piece of equipment for the marines to give them a chance. If the aliens have the ability to dynamically react to what the marines are doing (e.g. getting celerity rather than adrenaline because marines are spamming grenades, Onos rushing because marines are sitting on 2 hives but not getting any resources), give the marines an option to dynamically react to what the aliens are doing. Cause right now, all they can do to "counter" is fire up a research cycle which will end 5 minutes later, usually too late to mean anything.
I mean, if an Onos charges into my base, and the "official" counter is a jetpack, what am I suppsoed to do? Research jetpacks? Oh yeah, like that'll help now. Maybe my strategy involved using Heavy Armor, and researching jetpacks would have been too much of a resource drain. Now as a Onos tears up my forces, I can do nothing except watch a little bar fill up, then stop as the Prototype Lab gets mauled. Guess my lack of foresight made me lose...but where's the fun in that? Aliens don't need to predict what marines do in 1.1, and neither should marines. It needs to be about what team does the best job of reacting to each other, and uses strategies to outwit and outdo each other - in other words, like a real RTS. In 1.04, it's rock-paper-scissors for both sides invovled, which is bad. In 1.1, it's not rock-paper-scissors for the aliens, which is better, but it is still rock-paper-scissors for the marines, which is still bad. I'm not asking for "hard" counters, I'm asking for proper "soft" counters. Expansion > tech, tech > middle road, middle road > expansion - that's all 1.04, Flay. This basic system of counters doesn't apply to the aliens anymore, because you've given them better options for teching. It's time to give the marines the same option and make the game better, or we might as well go back to the 1.04 hive-dependent system.
I'm too tired to type any more, if you want me to hear me continue rambling on about this, feel free to give <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=34850' target='_blank'>this</a> a nice reread.
Comments
I think that 1.1 sounds like it's so close to being what we hoped it would be (a complete revamp of NS and how it's played) that introducing a new weapon at this stage would prove counter-productive, as it would need to be balanced/modelled etc from scratch and may well turn out to be more trouble than it's worth.
Perhaps make the onos more susceptible to a certain exisiting weapons class, eg maybe a quick ammo upgrade for the shotty which is very effective against onos, but not as effective against the lesser evolutions.
Apart from that, good point.
PS. I read that other post a day or so ago, I still don't think my eyes have fully recovered - talk about long (makes for a good read though).
I like it the way it is. Dying as an onos would cause you to lose 80 res. Dying as a marine with an HMG would only cause you to lose some res if someone can't get to the HMG that was dropped.
If an Onos rips through your base because you didn't have jetpacks. (Which is a pretty weak excuse--if your plan was to hand out HA, most likely the people with HA would have GL's and HMGS already)
Then it's the comms fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Removed hive restrictions again because of stalemates. I'm glad we tried it this way one last time, and I'm finally convinced that this new approach can work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The discussion comes a little too late, no? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS has been brought back from the brink of the abyss that was hive lockdowns. My faith in Flayra has been restored.
Ohhh thank you,.
My gratefullnes can never be fully expressed through this keyboard
And to satisfy those in the beta reading this: Yes, I acknowledge that I haven't tried the game, don't know jack about it and shouldn't even open my mouth. But I decide to blab anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like it the way it is. Dying as an onos would cause you to lose 80 res. Dying as a marine with an HMG would only cause you to lose some res if someone can't get to the HMG that was dropped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Iirc, an Onos now costs 100 res, and dead marines no longer drop their weapons.
Simple solution.
When someone starts evolving the first Onos, the Egg gives out an Onos scream that everyone can hear.
This way the marines have time to react before the onos comes to roll over them.
now you are suggesting all kind of counters to onos(a weapon specific for onos would be near useless actually). why don't you just wait how it turns out in 1.1?
Thanks for your input. The poll tipped me over the edge and forced me to put it back in and to find a way to make it all work.