On Natural Selection
Morre
Join Date: 2003-05-26 Member: 16717Members
Join Date: 2003-05-26 Member: 16717Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and the current gameplay</div> First of all, I want you to know that I HAVE been thinking through this. Really. And I know it's probably a little to late, since we are waiting for 1.1. Perhaps when you read this topic, you get the idea that I don't want to see 1.1. This is not true at all, I'm really looking forward to new tactics and such.
The first thing I would like to say is that 1.0x NOT is unbalanced, as many of you suggest. At least that's my opinion. I'll explain: Unbalanced means, as far as I know, that both sides aren't equal and that one side has an easier time winning. This is not the case with Natural Selection in general. Perhaps it's true on some maps, but, on the other hand, it's the opposite on other maps. Sure, NS is a little unbalanced as far as the aliens have reached two hives, but it's surely not impossible for the marines to win such a game. And, marines have the same kind of advantage when they reach jetpacks. What I'm trying to say is, both sides have an advantage over the other; just in different stages in the game. That is, as long as both sides are equal (let's say both have teamwork, or don't have teamwork). If one side is much better, they'll win. Isn't it supposed to be like that? Skill should count, and teamwork should count.
Next, bunnyjumping. Different people have different skills, and that should be true in the game as well as in real life. That's what it's all about. Sure, someone might be better than you at playing NS. So what? You are probably better than him in school. See what I mean? Do not take away what requires skill, because that's what makes the marine team fun to play. I'm not very good at bunnyjumping myself, but on the other hand, I find dodging incoming skulks fun and kind of easy. That will not be possible in the same way when bunnyjumping is removed. Playtesters and vets, feel free to comment on this. And I know that everybody doesn't agree with me, but I still wanted to express my feelings on the subject.
The Natural Selection strategy. Commander mode and RTS part. Well, some of you say it should be more complex; many say the tech tree isn't advanced enough, and so on. Perhaps this is true, and I've been playing loads of Starcraft/Warcraft, so I know what you mean. But isn't the simplicity part of the game, and something good about NS? That somebody which isn't so keen on strategy game can learn. Besides, if you made commanding games harder we would see even more "irritating newbies" that mess up the games by doing the wrong things. You can always get better as a commander anyway; perhaps not very much, but a little better. I command a lot, so I know what I'm talking about. To quote the game "Othello":
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A minute to learn... a lifetime to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I have a little suggestion, too. The mines are kind of... simple, at the moment. I really didn't know which word to use, but still. I know secondary fire options are not likely to make it into the game, but I really don't think of this as secondary fire, and anyway, it's just one weapon. Is it possible to be able to set the laser beam on/off before you place the mines, whether horizontally or not. Perhaps you could just remove the laser if the opposite box is a skybox. Yeah, I know it's kind of silly, but still. This is from the FAQ:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Things that will not be going into NS due to engine/game design constraints</b>
# Secondary fire options
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm. I have even more to say. I really think you should make next/previous weapon avaliable for aliens. It's just sad they can't use it, and it's not unrealistic in any way; seems like the "real" aliens could just think of it, or use their muscles to switch weapons.
And by the way, I'd like to thank Flayra and his team for a great game. Keep up the good work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The first thing I would like to say is that 1.0x NOT is unbalanced, as many of you suggest. At least that's my opinion. I'll explain: Unbalanced means, as far as I know, that both sides aren't equal and that one side has an easier time winning. This is not the case with Natural Selection in general. Perhaps it's true on some maps, but, on the other hand, it's the opposite on other maps. Sure, NS is a little unbalanced as far as the aliens have reached two hives, but it's surely not impossible for the marines to win such a game. And, marines have the same kind of advantage when they reach jetpacks. What I'm trying to say is, both sides have an advantage over the other; just in different stages in the game. That is, as long as both sides are equal (let's say both have teamwork, or don't have teamwork). If one side is much better, they'll win. Isn't it supposed to be like that? Skill should count, and teamwork should count.
Next, bunnyjumping. Different people have different skills, and that should be true in the game as well as in real life. That's what it's all about. Sure, someone might be better than you at playing NS. So what? You are probably better than him in school. See what I mean? Do not take away what requires skill, because that's what makes the marine team fun to play. I'm not very good at bunnyjumping myself, but on the other hand, I find dodging incoming skulks fun and kind of easy. That will not be possible in the same way when bunnyjumping is removed. Playtesters and vets, feel free to comment on this. And I know that everybody doesn't agree with me, but I still wanted to express my feelings on the subject.
The Natural Selection strategy. Commander mode and RTS part. Well, some of you say it should be more complex; many say the tech tree isn't advanced enough, and so on. Perhaps this is true, and I've been playing loads of Starcraft/Warcraft, so I know what you mean. But isn't the simplicity part of the game, and something good about NS? That somebody which isn't so keen on strategy game can learn. Besides, if you made commanding games harder we would see even more "irritating newbies" that mess up the games by doing the wrong things. You can always get better as a commander anyway; perhaps not very much, but a little better. I command a lot, so I know what I'm talking about. To quote the game "Othello":
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A minute to learn... a lifetime to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I have a little suggestion, too. The mines are kind of... simple, at the moment. I really didn't know which word to use, but still. I know secondary fire options are not likely to make it into the game, but I really don't think of this as secondary fire, and anyway, it's just one weapon. Is it possible to be able to set the laser beam on/off before you place the mines, whether horizontally or not. Perhaps you could just remove the laser if the opposite box is a skybox. Yeah, I know it's kind of silly, but still. This is from the FAQ:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Things that will not be going into NS due to engine/game design constraints</b>
# Secondary fire options
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm. I have even more to say. I really think you should make next/previous weapon avaliable for aliens. It's just sad they can't use it, and it's not unrealistic in any way; seems like the "real" aliens could just think of it, or use their muscles to switch weapons.
And by the way, I'd like to thank Flayra and his team for a great game. Keep up the good work. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Then just tap the 1234 button you need. If you use WASD, thats a piece of cake.
Then just tap the 1234 button you need. If you use WASD, thats a piece of cake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complain about my config if you like, but I walk around with the arrow keys. Hence, reaching the 1-2-3-4 keys takes time. That's why I always switch weapons with my scrolling wheel as marine. The reason I use the arrow keys, by the way, is that I use right CTRL for jumping, and right Shift for croucing... my spacebar makes a loud noice if you press it, so I can't handle using it for jumping, and there's no replacement for CTRL/Shift if you use WASD.
Then just tap the 1234 button you need. If you use WASD, thats a piece of cake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only disadvantage is you miss out on the cool pictures of the guns you used to see (when you use hud_fastswitch). Be careful about responding to the main post, it really felt like trollbait to me.
Sorry for the edit of my post, it was late and I misread what someone had posted <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> [/edit]
If anyone needs any scripts or help with there configs, #torment on irc.quakenet.org /msg J- i have alot of time on my hands these days so it gives me somthing to do <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ...
Which <b>is</b> a problem. The marines have the advantage early on and can stop the aliens ever getting to the 'bit' of the game where they hold an advantage, thus your premise is incorrect, it isn't balanced.
Which <b>is</b> a problem. The marines have the advantage early on and can stop the aliens ever getting to the 'bit' of the game where they hold an advantage, thus your premise is incorrect, it isn't balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree. As soon as aliens have carapace, for instance, they can base rush. They just need some teamwork. And I see aliens winning loads of games, too. I've heard loads of people saying aliens are too good and are always winning; just check some posts in these forums. I think NS is balanced just fine.
EDIT: Oh yeah int he EU vs US demos I love it how Flayra calls D chambers death chambers! Haha good naming flay!
EDIT: Oh yeah int he EU vs US demos I love it how Flayra calls D chambers death chambers! Haha good naming flay! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... maybe you're right about the jp's. I totally agree about the D-M-S order. I said earlier that I'm waiting for 1.1 and that I'd love to see some new strategies.
o_O. Whoa! .... well, whatever floats your boat....
WASD was designed for easy access to 1234567. I too like using the arrow keys, so I simply moved everything else around that. My weapon keys are op[]\kl,. (if the game needs that many keys), ; is always secondary fire, ' is reload and mouse2 is slot1. A script to fastswitch weapons using the mousewheel isn't hard to write; the subject's been brought up several times and several such scripts have been written (one of them by me.) For the record, my mousewheel's tied up in my wonderful fantabulous script, and the mouse3 button is my voicecom.
I'll add my name to the list of people to email if you need scripting help, then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
o_O. Whoa! .... well, whatever floats your boat....
WASD was designed for easy access to 1234567. I too like using the arrow keys, so I simply moved everything else around that. My weapon keys are op[]\kl,. (if the game needs that many keys), ; is always secondary fire, ' is reload and mouse2 is slot1. A script to fastswitch weapons using the mousewheel isn't hard to write; the subject's been brought up several times and several such scripts have been written (one of them by me.) For the record, my mousewheel's tied up in my wonderful fantabulous script, and the mouse3 button is my voicecom.
I'll add my name to the list of people to email if you need scripting help, then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could write such a script in a couple of minutes, yes. But do I really want to? It's boring. Why can't they just activate the function, it's already more or less integrated into the code anyway? I don't want other solutions, I just wish they could activate it.
i found this out but not many know about it, if u bind the voicecomm key to a keyboard it works, mouse3 = disabled for commander use <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Imagine binding medpacks to wheel down, and ammo packs to wheel up.....
Then imagine how hard it would be to EVER kill a marine again.
This thread has come up about 4 times a day, you could've bumped one of them. Other than that you state the counters to your argument in your own thread. Different sides have an advantage at different stages in the game. This is quite obviously NOT the way to build a RTS. You see, in an RTS, as soon as one side has an advantage, they WIN. Game over. GG. So the JP/HMG rush? Yeah, the marines have an advantage, its called level 3 tech vs. aliens level 1 tech. It means equally skilled teams will always cause a marine win. Because level 3 vs. level 1 on equal levels means marines win, especially with ranged weapons.
About BH, I think you got the wrong idea as to why it came out in the first place. It wasn't taken out because its a "skill" for some people and not for others, its the simple fact it gives an extreme unfair advantage to marines when being attacked by an alien. If you can BH backwards as fast as a skulk, it's stupidly hard for marines to die especially since you can't bite them while they can waste you.
You were right on the fact that 2 hives does not mean a game over for the marines. Which means yes, marines don't have an advantage but neither do the aliens if they both teched up at the same rate. So aliens once again don't have the advantage, which is what you're first point was trying to argue for.
That's about it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I did search and didn't really find this; could similiar threads have been deleted? Sorry about that, then.
And therein lies the problem. It should never be "easy" to dodge a creature designed to destroy in melee, by exploiting HL's wonky physics engine. Just because bhopping is slightly difficult(it isn't that hard), doesn't make it a skill, and doesn't mean it belongs.
You wanna know what skill is? Skill isn't bouncing around exploiting the engine like a manic flea, it's out-thinking and out-predicting your enemy.
This is my weapon change mouswheel script. This binds both up and down, if you only want to bind one direction only copy the relevant half (obviously...)
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->bind "MWHEELDOWN" "invnext; +attack; wait; -attack"
bind "MWHEELUP" "invprev; +attack; wait; -attack"<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
This goes in your config.cfg in the NS folder, with all the other keybinds. Hope that helped <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is my weapon change mouswheel script. This binds both up and down, if you only want to bind one direction only copy the relevant half (obviously...)
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->bind "MWHEELDOWN" "invnext; +attack; wait; -attack"
bind "MWHEELUP" "invprev; +attack; wait; -attack"<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
This goes in your config.cfg in the NS folder, with all the other keybinds. Hope that helped <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to bring the thread up again.
It didn't help, actually. The problem is that invnext and invprev doesn't work as aliens. At least I think so. I could of course make a script with alieses that binds slot1, slot2, slot3 and slot4 to the wheel while scrolling, but I don't feel like it. They could simply activate the function, it isn't that hard. As I said earlier, not sure if I want solutions. Just want the function.
You wanna know what skill is? Skill isn't bouncing around exploiting the engine like a manic flea, it's out-thinking and out-predicting your enemy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. If a skulk is capable of reaching a marine through the hailstorm of bullets that he can produce (or better yet, sneak up on an unsuspecting victim), he should be rewarded with an almost certain kill. There's no meaning in easily dodging the attack. This isn't the Matrix, and the marines aren't the ones. A vanilla marine is supposed to be food if the skulk can reach him.
Indeed, if dodging a skulk is easy in close combat, and the marines (clearly) have the advantage at range, where's the balance?