You vastly overestimate skulks with level 3 carapace. With level 1 weapons, it takes 16 LMG bullets to kill one. Killing 2 with 1 clip is not very hard to achieve when they're running at you in a hallway with no cover and almost no room to dodge.
Like I said, you don't place them ONLY on the walls. You place a few on the floor a bit further back so that any skulk running/jumping through and surviving will blow up on them. You also place your minewalls in such a way that you will see skulks coming at it from a way off, allowing you to gun at least 1 or 2 down before they reach it.
BTW, most of the time, a skulk can chew down an IP without triggering any mines around it AND kill spawners with ease. Jump on top of them but only at the edge (you'll avoid blowing up on any mine that might be on top and you won't be telefragged by spawners), and bite while looking a bit downwards. You will simultaneously damage the IP and almost instantly kill marines as they spawn. Also, 2 skulks will chew down almost any structure except a CC and perhaps an RT in the time it takes for a marine to spawn. So if the first spawner fails to kill them all (most likely) and the rest of the marines cannot return to base fast enough, you'll easily lose at least both your protolab and your arms lab. Losing 90 worth of structures just because you don't want to "waste" money on a few more packs of mines to cover the entrances is kinda idiotic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do know what you are saying but I have played to many games where laserwalls just took out one skulk...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They were bad laserwalls. =\
Placing them on the walls just plain doesn't work in clanmatches.
Alien1: Hey they have wall mines. Alien2: Ahahaha Alien1: *blows them all up for his team* Aliens3456: *rush inside base and eat everything unabated, spawncamping your marines*
Maybe in pubs it works. I still don't do it. Well placed ground mines have always worked much better for me.
Yeah, I'm all for the floor mines. If you've got 2 packs randomly littered about the base ground your guard can move about that area in relative safety and kill a lot of skulks in the process. With door mines you're kind of screwed when a few skulks get past and have complete freedom of movement. Also, it's a lot easier to mine up one place (your buildings) rather than 2 or 3 (the entrances). Now it's very easy to construct hypothetical situations of how door mines would work better, and scripting out how each alien will behave, then explaining how all of the die because of elite wallmining, but really it's not all that effective of a tactic.
<!--QuoteBegin--RandomEngy+May 15 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RandomEngy @ May 15 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->blah blah blah<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why don't you just straight out call me a liar instead? My 6 skulk rush example is a situation that actually HAPPENED, and it's definitely not the only one. I chose it because it had occured on the same day I started this thread and because I was getting tired of the people talking out of their butts that never actually tried laserwalling properly but just assumed I was some clueless newbie who would place them in the most idiotic fashion possible and bail expecting the aliens to never, ever be able to go through my mines. A lot of the posts here clearly show that they haven't even read half of what I've said. That or they just chose to ignore it.
A well placed, maintained laserwall with a single guard can stop a sizeable, organized skulk rush with no casualties and at no cost except for the 8 res you will spend to replace the mines. This is a fact. You can ignore it, you can call it theorizing (I do it all the time), you can contest it even if you've never, ever tried it or faced it, whatever. It still remains a fact.
On the flip side, I see random floormine spamming or around-the-stuff floor mining fail miserably to organized skulk rushes on a DAILY BASIS. It might not cause the marines to lose outright, but they often lose important structures, outposts or are otherwise significantly set back just because they stubbornly refuse to cover the entrances with mines.
If you're so very worried about still getting killed by skulks who managed to somehow pass through, then go ahead, spend an extra 16 res on random floormines... but as long as you have the entrances covered, you should be fine.
I AM aware that it's not possible to do in every room or location you might want to defend or lockdown, but with some good planning from the part of the comm, it can be easily integrated into a map denial strategy, the ns_bast one posted on this board being the most eloquent example. If they have refinery, laserwall the 2 doorways in main aft, laserwall the 2 small entrances to tram maintenance, and what do you have? 2 denied hives, 7 free res nodes guarded by 2 laserwalls, 2 mini laser walls and 2 guards. The rest of your entire freaking team can keep rushing/ramboing refinery nonstop if they want while the comm is getting every upgrade in the game.
Duff-man, I agree with you that laserwalls won't work in clan matches mostly due to the chain triggering effect. Hell, I'd go as far as saying that mines are ill-advised in clan matches, period.
If you take mainbase entrances for example...´there are two entrances to most of them
Eclipse: one laser wall on both doors will require 4 mines to stop a skulk from getting past, that makes one skulk kill
Nancy: The long hallway is excellent, but requires something like 5 mines to make a wall...maybe the only mainbase worth walling, but on the other hand, you can take out skulks from that position with ease aanyway...no mines really needed
Bast: Try mining that one...
Tanith: Even though its easy to mine tanith, there ae still two entrances, you need twice as many mines to defend it...also, they can get closer than in eclipse without being noticed...
Nothing: Same thing as tanith, exept that theres one entrance you cant really watch if youre guarding main base, they are too far away from eachother...
Hera: Three entrances, on with a door that closes, maybe the easiest to mine, but never the less, 3 packs reqiured...
Caged: This one I agree, it can also be mined with walls, but only if they dont have carpace, or they will take out all of them in one rush
In the example I gave, our main base was main aft.
In general, however, I would put laserwalls at a much more forward position so skulks wouldn't get anywhere near the marine start. I'm not saying you should always laserwall either, but if the location you want to defend allows it fairly easily and you can't afford to have more than 1 guard staying there, go for it.
EDIT:
Example of a forward mining position... on nothing, if the aliens have cargo, you could drop an armory in generator room, then have your marines put up laserwalls in the paths to ventilation chamber and communication hub 063 in such a way that skulks would have to go through the vent to get out of their hive. Then you could have a marine drop down the lift in generator and mine up the vent, or just camp it. The entire map would be yours.
The problem with mine walls is they need to be kept supplied. As only decent marines can do it effectively and it costs money it's quite difficult to do.
Basically floor mining is simpler, easier and often cheaper.
I'm not saying that wall mining is useless but it depends alot on the location.
why would floor mining be cheaper? mines on the floor also need te be replaced. i think a minewall would work very well, if you have someone who is maintaining it. this seems one of the bigger problems, because floor mines are easier to replace.
when i do mining (which i rarely do since im a noob) i place them like, one on the left side, the other on the right a bit higher, the other on the left again, a bit higher... and so on. I have no idea why i do that actually. No idea if its effecient even. but it works, for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--{DoA}DrunkMonkey+May 11 2003, 06:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({DoA}DrunkMonkey @ May 11 2003, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> sitting around, nurturing and taking care of the poor deprived mine wall is a waste of time for marines. IMHO (every time i do that abbrevation it looks like "I`am a hoe")
they should be secreuing an area while the skulks throw themselves into mines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nicely put and I agree. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Better to put them on the floor so they actually kill skulks and slow them down (+ alert skulks are attacking). I play on publics and hardly ever see a fully organized alien team attack the marine main base with skulks. There might come 3-4, but then at least 2 are killed by floor mines hindering their structure destruction power dramatically. Usually theres no need for a guard after mines since the aliens won't dare to attack. In the beginning people die so rapidly theres usually at least 1 guy in the base because of spawn anyway...
putting mines on floors around buildings helps little unless its a short building like an ip. Anything elsa a good skulk can go building hopping and eat everything.
My favorite mine placement is randomly on the ground scattered around buildings on the floor but not right next to buildings them selves. You have to rely on marines to shoot skulks but the skulks will have a hard time attacking rines looking out for scattered mines.
Aside from directly in the actual base, my favourite mine places are on the floor, just outside or near the entrance to the base/hive the marines are situated in. It has to be in dark patches though or ideally the green and brown patches near hives because placing one or two mines on the floor on those patches will make them relatively well camouflaged.
The best spots i've found for these placements so far are on Eclipse and Tanith.
Eclipse: In the maintenance hive, scatter a pack of mines around the green/brown patch a few feet back from the ladder into the hive. I've found it very effective especially early on because rushing skulks will drop down from the ladder and likely land/run into them.
Tanith: The "T" entrance into the sat comm hive. Place 3 or 4 mines on the green/brown patches just inside the left/right entrances just up the small steps. The majority of aliens entering the hive will often not notice them and die/take a lot of damage before they even reach your base.
the first thing a fade ALWAYS does is acid the ground in ur base........ ALWAYS..... mines must be gone by then or ur scrooed... then again if fade is attacking ur main base ur usaully scrooed anyways.....
<!--QuoteBegin--SDJASON+May 31 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ May 31 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the first thing a fade ALWAYS does is acid the ground in ur base........ ALWAYS..... mines must be gone by then or ur scrooed... then again if fade is attacking ur main base ur usaully scrooed anyways.....
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, yes. I still don't think it matters too much even if a fade blows up half your team with the floor mines. The guns they possibly have land on the ground and can be picked the minute they spawn, the damage to structures is so tiny I've never actually noticed it and by the time they have fades... Well, you said it yourself. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope they change the mine's beam in future versions. Make it A LOT thinner and darker red so its harder to see when moving. Then they would have some use when placed on walls. Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pege+May 31 2003, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ May 31 2003, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SDJASON+May 31 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ May 31 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the first thing a fade ALWAYS does is acid the ground in ur base........ ALWAYS..... mines must be gone by then or ur scrooed... then again if fade is attacking ur main base ur usaully scrooed anyways.....
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, yes. I still don't think it matters too much even if a fade blows up half your team with the floor mines. The guns they possibly have land on the ground and can be picked the minute they spawn, the damage to structures is so tiny I've never actually noticed it and by the time they have fades... Well, you said it yourself. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope they change the mine's beam in future versions. Make it A LOT thinner and darker red so its harder to see when moving. Then they would have some use when placed on walls. Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe that mines always work as proximity mines in 1.1, so there is no red beam for wall mines because it isn't set off by things moving through a path. I have also read that wall mines are almost useless, because they are not set off very often, even by onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope they change the mine's beam in future versions. Make it A LOT thinner and darker red so its harder to see when moving. Then they would have some use when placed on walls. Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should quote FFT's little "One Million Res Nodes" ditty here, but I won't. ;-)
On the subject of wall mines... If you're going to use them (not recommending or anything), use them right. I once saw a base with, according to my friend (the comm), 8 mine packs on the walls. This was in Nancy, and the marines were off slagging the hive, with only the comm and one marine in base... I managed to sneak through or detonate from the side every set of mines they put up, at combat speeds, while being shot at, ate the marine, ate the portal, and ate the comm... They would have won otherwise, too, since they got the hive down to 28.
So, if you must use wall mines, use them thoroughly.
I put wall mines on the floor <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> When I put them to skulk height in the middle of buildings, they keep the base clear much moro efficiently. Seeing 10 lines of laser in a base is a good psychological weapon too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pege+May 31 2003, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ May 31 2003, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> indeed! so why not use it like a big STOP!-sign? the strategy for bast is the perfect example for this mine strat. say they have refinery. you could mine up every node. or you can mine up the entrances. it is the same for your base, you can mine up every structure, or just the entrances. because most of the time you dont have lots of buildings to protect, structure mining can work better. but if the entrance is easy to mine, mine that. be flexible <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. ==== 84n44n: yep, you sound like a fan or something <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Heya, I'm new to the forums (not new to ns, in fact have been playing since the night it came out) ...
anyway, finally got around to sign up I figured this'd be a good post to start in ...
I tend to think mining ... and especially early in the game shouldnt be done by blocking entrances. Think about it, ... in a war you don't hear about "minelines" ... you hear about minefields. Granted, good skulks can jump between them pretty well ... but 3 packs of mines (about 15 mines if the dinks dont die while laying them) all over your base (not on buildings and not around buildings as I've seen people do) is a nightmare for a skulk trying to get to the marine thats in the middle of that field shooting him.
The main problem I think with blocking entrances is (and I am skulk 75% of all games I play so I kinda know this for a fact) is that usually you just blow up 1 or 2 mines and then you made a hole in the entire thing. If they mined like this
|------ -------| |------ ++++
all you do is jump over the row of mines on the floor taking out the first one above ground ... maybe theres even a 2nd mine in range so you might have to do it twice, but all the other mines become inefficient cause there's a big hole between them and all you have to do next time is jump between ...
|------ -------| X ++++
while 15 mines placed like this (looking down on them) is pretty much a nightmare to get by if theres just 1 marine shooting you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
the reason why this works better is cause either way you're working 2 dimensionally (how often can you actually put in all 3 dimensions and still have the mines close enough to the beams to make the kill?). say they actually made a way between the mines like this:
* * * / * * * / * * * / * * * / *
the mines only lose part of their efficienty, cause as long as there's a marine to chase, all he needs to do is dance around on the minefield while shooting the skulk and the path will become useless. the skulk would still need jump and run between the mines to get to him.
Any thoughts on this?
EDIT : it seems my topdown minefields dont come out as nice since it only registers one space, as you can notice on the 4th picture the backslashes dont form a straight line while they did when I was typing this, just use your imagination a bit, you'll see it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Think about it, ... in a war you don't hear about "minelines" ... you hear about minefields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have GOT to be kidding. Wars aren't typically fought indoors against wall/ceiling crawling enemies either.
Random landmines in your base is possibly the worst thing you can do. I've raped plenty of marine bases with minimal backup because the marines "knew" the "best" way to lay mines was to place them randomly on the floor. Too bad I knew how to wallwalk, jump from object to object and use structures as cover to kill helpless defending marines who apparently don't know the virtues of a choke point in ranged VS melee fighting. A MINED chokepoint is even better. A simple laserwall with 1 guard would have prevented me from ever getting through... hell, it would have prevented at least 3-4 of us from getting through at the same time, but sorry I forgot, that's a bad way to place mines. My mistake. I forgot mines exist solely to get random kills, and not to completely deny 1 hive aliens access to a specific area.
Don't tell me clearing 1-2 mines creates a huge hole, I specifically mentioned that some floor mines should be laid before the laserwall in such a way that any skulks trying to jump through any holes in the lasers will inevitably land on them.
I play this game every day like probably most people here. The only method of mining that I've seen that enables a single guard to consistently keep organized skulk attacks in check were well-placed laserwalls. As a skulk, the only method of mining that I've seen that consistently prevented me and my organized teammates to successfully assault a location guarded by a single marine were well-placed laserwalls.
Unsuprisingly (to me anyway), I've seen the floormines-around-our-stuff and random-floormines placements get raped plenty of times by organized skulks. I've yet to see a good laserwall fail in a way that did not involve the guard getting massively overwhelmed (like 10 to 1.)
I'm not talking about mines around structures as I see them all do, I really mean a carpet at the entrance (or a little closer to the actual base). I've seen this done effectively "once" and it was near impossible to get through cause of the single marine shooting on the other side and he would dance around if I ever reached his side. I've tried to duplicate something like this, but if I'm comm, most marines wont put them down right and when I'm marine, I can usually only get my hands on a single pack ...
"Don't tell me clearing 1-2 mines creates a huge hole, I specifically mentioned that some floor mines should be laid before the laserwall in such a way that any skulks trying to jump through any holes in the lasers will inevitably land on them."
its the same principle ... you can always create the hole. granted this usually isnt done, but if you reach the mines on the floor just before or just after you would have to make the jump ... it'll always be the lowest ones that'll get taken out (not the ones on the floor, I mean the ones on the walls)
The reason why minecarpets generally fail is because it's usually only 1 guy trying to put them randomly on the floor while everyone else puts em around buildings, this might give the impression of a carpet, but if you'd check from above (commanderview) it's easy to see that the skulks still have more then enough space to move around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->indeed! so why not use it like a big STOP!-sign? the strategy for bast is the perfect example for this mine strat. say they have refinery. you could mine up every node. or you can mine up the entrances. it is the same for your base, you can mine up every structure, or just the entrances. because most of the time you dont have lots of buildings to protect, structure mining can work better. but if the entrance is easy to mine, mine that. be flexible <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When skulks really want to rush your base, they will do it even if there are couple of mines around. If they see mines before they step on them, they'll try to minimize casualties by letting some unfortunate walk into them or find another way around. If theyre really smart, they will use a gorge to blow up those obvious wallmines from a safe distance. They don't see floormines so they step on them, die (or get hurt) and are easier prey for defending marines. Wallmines all go off when first skulks comes across or a hole is created so that other skulks can exploit it. Then its your marines versus the aliens and mines are useless.
I don't know how skillful people around here are, but I've only seen a couple of times a skulk that can jump from building to building and avoid floormines without getting shot. I've seen about a thousand times a wallmine placement with a hole in it. In all scrim-demos I've seen (not many), marines place mines on the floor next to buildings. I wouldn't call the best clanners around as "bad skulks" for not building hopping, so its pretty hard alright. Better to teach newbies to place on the floor so mines will be of some use. Only places I can think of where wallmines are good are vents.
Comments
Like I said, you don't place them ONLY on the walls. You place a few on the floor a bit further back so that any skulk running/jumping through and surviving will blow up on them. You also place your minewalls in such a way that you will see skulks coming at it from a way off, allowing you to gun at least 1 or 2 down before they reach it.
BTW, most of the time, a skulk can chew down an IP without triggering any mines around it AND kill spawners with ease. Jump on top of them but only at the edge (you'll avoid blowing up on any mine that might be on top and you won't be telefragged by spawners), and bite while looking a bit downwards. You will simultaneously damage the IP and almost instantly kill marines as they spawn. Also, 2 skulks will chew down almost any structure except a CC and perhaps an RT in the time it takes for a marine to spawn. So if the first spawner fails to kill them all (most likely) and the rest of the marines cannot return to base fast enough, you'll easily lose at least both your protolab and your arms lab. Losing 90 worth of structures just because you don't want to "waste" money on a few more packs of mines to cover the entrances is kinda idiotic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do know what you are saying but I have played to many games where laserwalls just took out one skulk...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were bad laserwalls. =\
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Alien1: Hey they have wall mines.
Alien2: Ahahaha
Alien1: *blows them all up for his team*
Aliens3456: *rush inside base and eat everything unabated, spawncamping your marines*
Maybe in pubs it works. I still don't do it. Well placed ground mines have always worked much better for me.
/*Eaglec leaves the room shaking his head...
Why don't you just straight out call me a liar instead? My 6 skulk rush example is a situation that actually HAPPENED, and it's definitely not the only one. I chose it because it had occured on the same day I started this thread and because I was getting tired of the people talking out of their butts that never actually tried laserwalling properly but just assumed I was some clueless newbie who would place them in the most idiotic fashion possible and bail expecting the aliens to never, ever be able to go through my mines. A lot of the posts here clearly show that they haven't even read half of what I've said. That or they just chose to ignore it.
A well placed, maintained laserwall with a single guard can stop a sizeable, organized skulk rush with no casualties and at no cost except for the 8 res you will spend to replace the mines. This is a fact. You can ignore it, you can call it theorizing (I do it all the time), you can contest it even if you've never, ever tried it or faced it, whatever. It still remains a fact.
On the flip side, I see random floormine spamming or around-the-stuff floor mining fail miserably to organized skulk rushes on a DAILY BASIS. It might not cause the marines to lose outright, but they often lose important structures, outposts or are otherwise significantly set back just because they stubbornly refuse to cover the entrances with mines.
If you're so very worried about still getting killed by skulks who managed to somehow pass through, then go ahead, spend an extra 16 res on random floormines... but as long as you have the entrances covered, you should be fine.
I AM aware that it's not possible to do in every room or location you might want to defend or lockdown, but with some good planning from the part of the comm, it can be easily integrated into a map denial strategy, the ns_bast one posted on this board being the most eloquent example. If they have refinery, laserwall the 2 doorways in main aft, laserwall the 2 small entrances to tram maintenance, and what do you have? 2 denied hives, 7 free res nodes guarded by 2 laserwalls, 2 mini laser walls and 2 guards. The rest of your entire freaking team can keep rushing/ramboing refinery nonstop if they want while the comm is getting every upgrade in the game.
Duff-man, I agree with you that laserwalls won't work in clan matches mostly due to the chain triggering effect. Hell, I'd go as far as saying that mines are ill-advised in clan matches, period.
Eclipse:
one laser wall on both doors will require 4 mines to stop a skulk from getting past, that makes one skulk kill
Nancy:
The long hallway is excellent, but requires something like 5 mines to make a wall...maybe the only mainbase worth walling, but on the other hand, you can take out skulks from that position with ease aanyway...no mines really needed
Bast:
Try mining that one...
Tanith:
Even though its easy to mine tanith, there ae still two entrances, you need twice as many mines to defend it...also, they can get closer than in eclipse without being noticed...
Nothing:
Same thing as tanith, exept that theres one entrance you cant really watch if youre guarding main base, they are too far away from eachother...
Hera:
Three entrances, on with a door that closes, maybe the easiest to mine, but never the less, 3 packs reqiured...
Caged:
This one I agree, it can also be mined with walls, but only if they dont have carpace, or they will take out all of them in one rush
In general, however, I would put laserwalls at a much more forward position so skulks wouldn't get anywhere near the marine start. I'm not saying you should always laserwall either, but if the location you want to defend allows it fairly easily and you can't afford to have more than 1 guard staying there, go for it.
EDIT:
Example of a forward mining position... on nothing, if the aliens have cargo, you could drop an armory in generator room, then have your marines put up laserwalls in the paths to ventilation chamber and communication hub 063 in such a way that skulks would have to go through the vent to get out of their hive. Then you could have a marine drop down the lift in generator and mine up the vent, or just camp it. The entire map would be yours.
[SIZE=14][COLOR=red]CHOKE POINTS
[SIZE=1][COLOR=blue]
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> will beat <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basically floor mining is simpler, easier and often cheaper.
I'm not saying that wall mining is useless but it depends alot on the location.
i think a minewall would work very well, if you have someone who is maintaining it. this seems one of the bigger problems, because floor mines are easier to replace.
when i do mining (which i rarely do since im a noob) i place them like, one on the left side, the other on the right a bit higher, the other on the left again, a bit higher... and so on. I have no idea why i do that actually. No idea if its effecient even. but it works, for me.
they should be secreuing an area while the skulks throw themselves into mines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely put and I agree. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Better to put them on the floor so they actually kill skulks and slow them down (+ alert skulks are attacking). I play on publics and hardly ever see a fully organized alien team attack the marine main base with skulks. There might come 3-4, but then at least 2 are killed by floor mines hindering their structure destruction power dramatically. Usually theres no need for a guard after mines since the aliens won't dare to attack. In the beginning people die so rapidly theres usually at least 1 guy in the base because of spawn anyway...
My favorite mine placement is randomly on the ground scattered around buildings on the floor but not right next to buildings them selves. You have to rely on marines to shoot skulks but the skulks will have a hard time attacking rines looking out for scattered mines.
The best spots i've found for these placements so far are on Eclipse and Tanith.
Eclipse: In the maintenance hive, scatter a pack of mines around the green/brown patch a few feet back from the ladder into the hive. I've found it very effective especially early on because rushing skulks will drop down from the ladder and likely land/run into them.
Tanith: The "T" entrance into the sat comm hive. Place 3 or 4 mines on the green/brown patches just inside the left/right entrances just up the small steps. The majority of aliens entering the hive will often not notice them and die/take a lot of damage before they even reach your base.
~Jason
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes. I still don't think it matters too much even if a fade blows up half your team with the floor mines. The guns they possibly have land on the ground and can be picked the minute they spawn, the damage to structures is so tiny I've never actually noticed it and by the time they have fades... Well, you said it yourself. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope they change the mine's beam in future versions. Make it A LOT thinner and darker red so its harder to see when moving. Then they would have some use when placed on walls. Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign.
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes. I still don't think it matters too much even if a fade blows up half your team with the floor mines. The guns they possibly have land on the ground and can be picked the minute they spawn, the damage to structures is so tiny I've never actually noticed it and by the time they have fades... Well, you said it yourself. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope they change the mine's beam in future versions. Make it A LOT thinner and darker red so its harder to see when moving. Then they would have some use when placed on walls. Now the red color is like a "SKULKS STOP!"-sign. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that mines always work as proximity mines in 1.1, so there is no red beam for wall mines because it isn't set off by things moving through a path. I have also read that wall mines are almost useless, because they are not set off very often, even by onos.
I should quote FFT's little "One Million Res Nodes" ditty here, but I won't. ;-)
On the subject of wall mines... If you're going to use them (not recommending or anything), use them right. I once saw a base with, according to my friend (the comm), 8 mine packs on the walls. This was in Nancy, and the marines were off slagging the hive, with only the comm and one marine in base... I managed to sneak through or detonate from the side every set of mines they put up, at combat speeds, while being shot at, ate the marine, ate the portal, and ate the comm... They would have won otherwise, too, since they got the hive down to 28.
So, if you must use wall mines, use them thoroughly.
indeed! so why not use it like a big STOP!-sign?
the strategy for bast is the perfect example for this mine strat. say they have refinery. you could mine up every node. or you can mine up the entrances.
it is the same for your base, you can mine up every structure, or just the entrances.
because most of the time you dont have lots of buildings to protect, structure mining can work better. but if the entrance is easy to mine, mine that. be flexible <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
====
84n44n: yep, you sound like a fan or something <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
|---------
----------|
<u> + + + </u>
that is my favorite layout ( the +'s are floor mines)
anyway, finally got around to sign up I figured this'd be a good post to start in ...
I tend to think mining ... and especially early in the game shouldnt be done by blocking entrances.
Think about it, ... in a war you don't hear about "minelines" ... you hear about minefields.
Granted, good skulks can jump between them pretty well ... but 3 packs of mines (about 15 mines if the dinks dont die while laying them) all over your base (not on buildings and not around buildings as I've seen people do)
is a nightmare for a skulk trying to get to the marine thats in the middle of that field shooting him.
The main problem I think with blocking entrances is (and I am skulk 75% of all games I play so I kinda know this for a fact) is that usually you just blow up 1 or 2 mines and then you made a hole in the entire thing. If they mined like this
|------
-------|
|------
++++
all you do is jump over the row of mines on the floor taking out the first one above ground ... maybe theres even a 2nd mine in range so you might have to do it twice, but all the other mines become inefficient cause there's a big
hole between them and all you have to do next time is jump between ...
|------
-------|
X
++++
while 15 mines placed like this (looking down on them) is pretty much a nightmare to get by if theres just 1 marine shooting you.
* * * *
* * * *
* * * *
* * *
the reason why this works better is cause either way you're working 2 dimensionally (how often can you actually put in all 3 dimensions and still have the mines close enough to the beams to make the kill?). say they actually made a way between the mines like this:
* * * / *
* * / *
* * / *
* * / *
the mines only lose part of their efficienty, cause as long as there's a marine to chase, all he needs to do is dance around on the minefield while shooting the skulk and the path will become useless. the skulk would still need jump and run between the mines to get to him.
Any thoughts on this?
EDIT : it seems my topdown minefields dont come out as nice since it only registers one space, as you can notice on the 4th picture the backslashes dont form a straight line while they did when I was typing this, just use your imagination a bit, you'll see it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
You have GOT to be kidding. Wars aren't typically fought indoors against wall/ceiling crawling enemies either.
Random landmines in your base is possibly the worst thing you can do. I've raped plenty of marine bases with minimal backup because the marines "knew" the "best" way to lay mines was to place them randomly on the floor. Too bad I knew how to wallwalk, jump from object to object and use structures as cover to kill helpless defending marines who apparently don't know the virtues of a choke point in ranged VS melee fighting. A MINED chokepoint is even better. A simple laserwall with 1 guard would have prevented me from ever getting through... hell, it would have prevented at least 3-4 of us from getting through at the same time, but sorry I forgot, that's a bad way to place mines. My mistake. I forgot mines exist solely to get random kills, and not to completely deny 1 hive aliens access to a specific area.
Don't tell me clearing 1-2 mines creates a huge hole, I specifically mentioned that some floor mines should be laid before the laserwall in such a way that any skulks trying to jump through any holes in the lasers will inevitably land on them.
I play this game every day like probably most people here. The only method of mining that I've seen that enables a single guard to consistently keep organized skulk attacks in check were well-placed laserwalls. As a skulk, the only method of mining that I've seen that consistently prevented me and my organized teammates to successfully assault a location guarded by a single marine were well-placed laserwalls.
Unsuprisingly (to me anyway), I've seen the floormines-around-our-stuff and random-floormines placements get raped plenty of times by organized skulks. I've yet to see a good laserwall fail in a way that did not involve the guard getting massively overwhelmed (like 10 to 1.)
I've tried to duplicate something like this, but if I'm comm, most marines wont put them down right and when I'm marine, I can usually only get my hands on a single pack ...
"Don't tell me clearing 1-2 mines creates a huge hole, I specifically mentioned that some floor mines should be laid before the laserwall in such a way that any skulks trying to jump through any holes in the lasers will inevitably land on them."
its the same principle ... you can always create the hole. granted this usually isnt done, but if you reach the mines on the floor just before or just after you would have to make the jump ... it'll always be the lowest ones that'll get taken out (not the ones on the floor, I mean the ones on the walls)
The reason why minecarpets generally fail is because it's usually only 1 guy trying to put them randomly on the floor while everyone else puts em around buildings, this might give the impression of a carpet, but if you'd check from above (commanderview) it's easy to see that the skulks still have more then enough space to move around.
the strategy for bast is the perfect example for this mine strat. say they have refinery. you could mine up every node. or you can mine up the entrances.
it is the same for your base, you can mine up every structure, or just the entrances.
because most of the time you dont have lots of buildings to protect, structure mining can work better. but if the entrance is easy to mine, mine that. be flexible <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When skulks really want to rush your base, they will do it even if there are couple of mines around. If they see mines before they step on them, they'll try to minimize casualties by letting some unfortunate walk into them or find another way around. If theyre really smart, they will use a gorge to blow up those obvious wallmines from a safe distance. They don't see floormines so they step on them, die (or get hurt) and are easier prey for defending marines. Wallmines all go off when first skulks comes across or a hole is created so that other skulks can exploit it. Then its your marines versus the aliens and mines are useless.
I don't know how skillful people around here are, but I've only seen a couple of times a skulk that can jump from building to building and avoid floormines without getting shot. I've seen about a thousand times a wallmine placement with a hole in it. In all scrim-demos I've seen (not many), marines place mines on the floor next to buildings. I wouldn't call the best clanners around as "bad skulks" for not building hopping, so its pretty hard alright. Better to teach newbies to place on the floor so mines will be of some use. Only places I can think of where wallmines are good are vents.