I originally posted this in S & I. I'm reposting it here as its relevant and not many people read S & I anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>Pre-post thought: Flays probably already decided what the 2-hive ability is gonna be but its a nice thought exercise anyway.</i> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Considering the blank ability, we need to bear the following in mind.
1. Look at the S&I FAQ. That rules out a lot of possibilities, including some posted in this thread. 2. We want to avoid duplicating the effect of an other aliens ability. 3. We want something that is in character with the fade and complements it's own and other aliens abilities. 4. Must be in NS's character. 5. Must be technically possible in the HL engine.
Now, we look at the fade's current abilties.
0-hive, Swipe - Melee range attack, quite a large area attack, deals 80 damage at minimal energy cost and fairly quickly. 1-hive, Blink - Constantly drains energy, your speed goes through the roof and you cloak. 3-hive, Acid rocket - Long range projectile, 60 damage with splash, decent rate of fire, high energy use.
Conclusions - Any other melee attack is probably redundant. Secondary effects (poison, stun etc) are fairly inconsequential when your dealing 80 damage. The exception is if you effectively want a HA killer ability, which is a possibility but I would point out that the onos fills this role. An large area melee attack would probably infringe on spores as the only area attack, besides which the easiest implementation of a 'whirlwind' attack would look fairly ridiculous and probably be difficult to animate properly.
Likewise, another transport ability seems redundant in the face of blink. I'm sure if the 1.04 blink could be implemented it would be, so suggesting the 2-hive ability be the 'old' blink isn't an option.
Another projectile attack is redundant in the face of acid rocket. We already have a projectile ability against Jps, web. Gorges are the building destroyers now. The only think I can think of is a short range acid burst. The problem is up close you may as well just use swipe.
So what do we have left ? Some sort of miscellanous ability is a possibilty, but that can encompass pretty much anything. Therefore we have to ask what role is the fade trying to fill, what does the fade lack and then design an ability to fill the gap.
In 1.04 a fade was an all round super soldier, good at range, good up close, could change distance at will and eventually decimate buildings. In 1.1, I don't think this has changed, although the move of AR to 3-hive makes it more melee oriented and obviously the gorge is know the building destroyer.
What does the fade lack ? Difficult question TBH. It is a good all round attack unit already, good melee, good range, reasonable base speed and blink speaks for itself. Upgrades allow you to customise this load how you want. Even with only 3 abilities its still viable. So what do we add ?
I'm not sure really. My personal ideas are some sort of fade Frenzy attack, a personal primal scream of some discription. The close range acid spray mentioned earlier. An ability which takes say 5 seconds to activate, then makes you invulnerable for 10 seconds but you die at the end of it ? I'm not really sure. I can't think of anything which isn't just cookie filler, nice but not essential.
Anyway, I really just posted this so that people could read it and hopefully it'll help them rule out ideas and gave inspiration as to how to think up an ability.
My divide idea (read other thread) still owns <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i want to see fades being able to disguise themselves as marines, then they run around with the squad and pick them off one by one.
Oh man, that would be fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously, take a look at this idea <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=32496' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=32496</a>. It has yet to receive negative feedback.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+May 20 2003, 02:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ May 20 2003, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Acid-themed shotgun derivative. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Similar to my short ranged acid burst idea. Something to soften a group of riens up at close range before finishing them off with swipe.
Would make fades a close assault hit and run fiend.
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+May 20 2003, 08:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ May 20 2003, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Similar to my short ranged acid burst idea. Something to soften a group of riens up at close range before finishing them off with swipe. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking JP counter.
Something a slow-firing hitscan weapon with spread would be ideally suited to.
Three ideas I like. In order of least preference. (although its very marginal)
1) Some sort of area effect damage weapon. I like the idea of the fade crouching over, and then after say 3-5 seconds stadning up in a great roar and this huge blast radius eminating out from him.
2) The Pull idea (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=32496). If balanced correctly I can see this being used really well in game, and would also be quite fun.
3) The fade divide Idea, I think this is great, although I see the code of it being very similar to babblers, and I dont think the divided fade would have to be that weak aslong as he only lasted for say 20 secs, long enough to give the real fade a chance to run.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) The Pull idea (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=32496). If balanced correctly I can see this being used really well in game, and would also be quite fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will the team will <b>like</b> meeting GW's lawyers do you think?
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+May 20 2003, 09:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ May 20 2003, 09:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Will the team will <b>like</b> meeting GW's lawyers do you think?
*Cough Cough* Lictor *Cough* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not that I believe that this ability would be put in, but they could easily claim their inspiration was from any number of sources. The simplest being the HL barnacle.
Its <b>possible</b> that the reason Flay hasn't yet stuck in the 2-hive ability is because hes seeing if the aliens need an anti-?? weapon, and if so will use the fades spare slot to handle it. I don't really think the aliens need a anti-JP weapon, but we'll see I guess.
BeRzErKeR, speed is apparently very quick. I can't gave you a sv_speed value but in the beta forums it was described as being as quick as a skulk continually leaping. You do cloak but you can't 'fly'.
Shockwave, in that thread no mention is made of any apparatus to 'pull' the marine in, so I guess it's more likely to be Mr Lucas' lawyers then anyone else <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Use the force, Fade" "The hive will be with you, always"
I think that the pull Idea would be great. It would nicely counter the JPer and give the fade somewhat of a ranged attack. If he was slowed down a bit while pulling that'd be cool. Give the rine a chance to fight back before his doom. Of course he can't turn easily but it'd be so cool to see.
Personally I would like to see a skill on either fade or onos to harden into a super shell as a shield, but of course you shouldn't be able to do anything while in that shell.
Well, as fade, in most cases...The marines tend to turn round and run in the opposite direction the moment they meet a fade. How about a cool pounce on their back move and start slashing away at their backs... But then again, I can't exactly see a marine having the body strength to give Fades piggy back rides <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personally, I'd like to see snarks. Nobody can deny snarks are totally the rox. Every HL mod should implement snarks somehow <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nothing like 15 little tiny aliens who turn and attack you randomly, doing as much damage to you as they do your enemies.
Now, don't get me wrong, I've been going through the hl sp using snarks almost by themselves (thank you impulse 101), they are great and all, but I can see them being released in the thousands, running forward a few steps, then creating a stampede backward when they notice that fade flesh is much nicer than marine armor.
Actually, if you've ever seen the movie The Thing, I think Fades being able to look like marines would induce some fun paranoia. I don't know how well it would function for gameplay, but there would be some nice atmospheric appeal.
<!--QuoteBegin--ThE HeRo+May 21 2003, 09:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThE HeRo @ May 21 2003, 09:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno guys... its so hard to pass up a wooden spoon. A wooden spoon would make the fade teh l337 pwnage h4x0r whatnot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dunno guys... its so hard to pass up a wooden spoon. A wooden spoon would make the fade teh l337 pwnage h4x0r whatnot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With flowers carved into the handle. And covered in booze. And make it a spork.
A wooden spork, soaked in booze, with flowers carved on the handle, and that can induce bullet time. That's what I'm talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nigh-pher+May 21 2003, 06:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nigh-pher @ May 21 2003, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> FADE should get a jump kick abilty that would be cool <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> can't believe i'm saying this, but if the speed kick attack from OMF:2097 could be given as this jump kick, it'd be <i>perfect</i>
Comments
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<i>Pre-post thought: Flays probably already decided what the 2-hive ability is gonna be but its a nice thought exercise anyway.</i> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Considering the blank ability, we need to bear the following in mind.
1. Look at the S&I FAQ. That rules out a lot of possibilities, including some posted in this thread.
2. We want to avoid duplicating the effect of an other aliens ability.
3. We want something that is in character with the fade and complements it's own and other aliens abilities.
4. Must be in NS's character.
5. Must be technically possible in the HL engine.
Now, we look at the fade's current abilties.
0-hive, Swipe - Melee range attack, quite a large area attack, deals 80 damage at minimal energy cost and fairly quickly.
1-hive, Blink - Constantly drains energy, your speed goes through the roof and you cloak.
3-hive, Acid rocket - Long range projectile, 60 damage with splash, decent rate of fire, high energy use.
Conclusions - Any other melee attack is probably redundant. Secondary effects (poison, stun etc) are fairly inconsequential when your dealing 80 damage. The exception is if you effectively want a HA killer ability, which is a possibility but I would point out that the onos fills this role. An large area melee attack would probably infringe on spores as the only area attack, besides which the easiest implementation of a 'whirlwind' attack would look fairly ridiculous and probably be difficult to animate properly.
Likewise, another transport ability seems redundant in the face of blink. I'm sure if the 1.04 blink could be implemented it would be, so suggesting the 2-hive ability be the 'old' blink isn't an option.
Another projectile attack is redundant in the face of acid rocket. We already have a projectile ability against Jps, web. Gorges are the building destroyers now. The only think I can think of is a short range acid burst. The problem is up close you may as well just use swipe.
So what do we have left ? Some sort of miscellanous ability is a possibilty, but that can encompass pretty much anything. Therefore we have to ask what role is the fade trying to fill, what does the fade lack and then design an ability to fill the gap.
In 1.04 a fade was an all round super soldier, good at range, good up close, could change distance at will and eventually decimate buildings. In 1.1, I don't think this has changed, although the move of AR to 3-hive makes it more melee oriented and obviously the gorge is know the building destroyer.
What does the fade lack ? Difficult question TBH. It is a good all round attack unit already, good melee, good range, reasonable base speed and blink speaks for itself. Upgrades allow you to customise this load how you want. Even with only 3 abilities its still viable. So what do we add ?
I'm not sure really. My personal ideas are some sort of fade Frenzy attack, a personal primal scream of some discription. The close range acid spray mentioned earlier. An ability which takes say 5 seconds to activate, then makes you invulnerable for 10 seconds but you die at the end of it ? I'm not really sure. I can't think of anything which isn't just cookie filler, nice but not essential.
Anyway, I really just posted this so that people could read it and hopefully it'll help them rule out ideas and gave inspiration as to how to think up an ability.
[/dreams] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh man, that would be fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Similar to my short ranged acid burst idea. Something to soften a group of riens up at close range before finishing them off with swipe.
Would make fades a close assault hit and run fiend.
I was thinking JP counter.
Something a slow-firing hitscan weapon with spread would be ideally suited to.
1) Some sort of area effect damage weapon. I like the idea of the fade crouching over, and then after say 3-5 seconds stadning up in a great roar and this huge blast radius eminating out from him.
2) The Pull idea (http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=32496). If balanced correctly I can see this being used really well in game, and would also be quite fun.
3) The fade divide Idea, I think this is great, although I see the code of it being very similar to babblers, and I dont think the divided fade would have to be that weak aslong as he only lasted for say 20 secs, long enough to give the real fade a chance to run.
Also, does anyone know how much the speed will be increased as in terms of sv_speed? Because I would like to test it on a lan server or something.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will the team will <b>like</b> meeting GW's lawyers do you think?
*Cough Cough* Lictor *Cough*
*Cough Cough* Lictor *Cough* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that I believe that this ability would be put in, but they could easily claim their inspiration was from any number of sources. The simplest being the HL barnacle.
BeRzErKeR, speed is apparently very quick. I can't gave you a sv_speed value but in the beta forums it was described as being as quick as a skulk continually leaping. You do cloak but you can't 'fly'.
Shockwave, in that thread no mention is made of any apparatus to 'pull' the marine in, so I guess it's more likely to be Mr Lucas' lawyers then anyone else <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Use the force, Fade"
"The hive will be with you, always"
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It would nicely counter the JPer and give the fade somewhat of a ranged attack. If he was slowed down a bit while pulling that'd be cool. Give the rine a chance to fight back before his doom. Of course he can't turn easily but it'd be so cool to see.
just like metapod! metapod! I choose you!!
Think about it, now fades really WILL be the JP counter!
But then again, I can't exactly see a marine having the body strength to give Fades piggy back rides <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
-psygnosis-
Now, don't get me wrong, I've been going through the hl sp using snarks almost by themselves (thank you impulse 101), they are great and all, but I can see them being released in the thousands, running forward a few steps, then creating a stampede backward when they notice that fade flesh is much nicer than marine armor.
Actually, if you've ever seen the movie The Thing, I think Fades being able to look like marines would induce some fun paranoia. I don't know how well it would function for gameplay, but there would be some nice atmospheric appeal.
<a href='http://home.uchicago.edu/~hra/rejected.wmv' target='_blank'>http://home.uchicago.edu/~hra/rejected.wmv</a>
so true.
With flowers carved into the handle. And covered in booze. And make it a spork.
A wooden spork, soaked in booze, with flowers carved on the handle, and that can induce bullet time. That's what I'm talking about.
can't believe i'm saying this, but if the speed kick attack from OMF:2097 could be given as this jump kick, it'd be <i>perfect</i>