Deadliness Of New Accurate Hmg
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">2-4 times more damage</div> <!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+May 17 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ May 17 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
O Tightened HMG cone to make better vs. ranged fades/oni and harder to respond to skulk chomping on leg (changed from 10 degrees to 6 degrees)
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When I saw this I decided to check how it affects the deadliness of the HMG. To do this, I looked at a burst aimed at the midpoint of a Fade and will try to find out just how many shots really hits using the old and new style HMG.
To make things simple, I'll make the Fade hitbox 2 units high and one unit wide. This also corresponds fairly well with one pace one unit.
r=cone of fire radius for the hmg.
All shots will hit if r<=1/2 unit.
At r=1, 2/pi shots will hit, or about 60%.
At r>1, 2/pi*r*r shots will hit, and thus it falls off real fast (double the range and you quarter the hits)
Thus the effective killing distance for a HMG reaches to a short bit beyond the range where r=1.
r = range * sin(10/2), which with some feroucious rounding gives r=range *0.1<=> 10r=range
r=1/2 then gives a range of 5 units and r=1 gives 10 units.
For the new angle of 6 degrees, we get
r =range * sin(6/2) <=> r = range * 0.05 <=> 20r = range
This is quite huge. At 20 units range, the old HMG would hit with 2/pi*2*2 or 15% of the bullets. The new HMG hits with 60% of the bullets. That's 4 times deadlier!
At a range of 10 units, the new HMG hits with 100% vs the old 60%, and so is does almost twice the damage.
To get an idea of the actual ranges, 20 units is about the distance across the wide part of the eclipse marine base.
Now, I'm not a playtester, but I did read that the new HMG was felt to be overly deadly. The numbers confirm it. At normal ranged combat ranges, the new HMG will do 2-4 times more damage then the old. IMO, this does not seem to be a good idea. Also, the reasons given for it being Fade dueling does not seem to apply, with acid rocket being a hive 3 ability, and as anyone with a modicum of pistol skill can testify, a narrower cone does NOT make skulks any harder to kill.
O Tightened HMG cone to make better vs. ranged fades/oni and harder to respond to skulk chomping on leg (changed from 10 degrees to 6 degrees)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I saw this I decided to check how it affects the deadliness of the HMG. To do this, I looked at a burst aimed at the midpoint of a Fade and will try to find out just how many shots really hits using the old and new style HMG.
To make things simple, I'll make the Fade hitbox 2 units high and one unit wide. This also corresponds fairly well with one pace one unit.
r=cone of fire radius for the hmg.
All shots will hit if r<=1/2 unit.
At r=1, 2/pi shots will hit, or about 60%.
At r>1, 2/pi*r*r shots will hit, and thus it falls off real fast (double the range and you quarter the hits)
Thus the effective killing distance for a HMG reaches to a short bit beyond the range where r=1.
r = range * sin(10/2), which with some feroucious rounding gives r=range *0.1<=> 10r=range
r=1/2 then gives a range of 5 units and r=1 gives 10 units.
For the new angle of 6 degrees, we get
r =range * sin(6/2) <=> r = range * 0.05 <=> 20r = range
This is quite huge. At 20 units range, the old HMG would hit with 2/pi*2*2 or 15% of the bullets. The new HMG hits with 60% of the bullets. That's 4 times deadlier!
At a range of 10 units, the new HMG hits with 100% vs the old 60%, and so is does almost twice the damage.
To get an idea of the actual ranges, 20 units is about the distance across the wide part of the eclipse marine base.
Now, I'm not a playtester, but I did read that the new HMG was felt to be overly deadly. The numbers confirm it. At normal ranged combat ranges, the new HMG will do 2-4 times more damage then the old. IMO, this does not seem to be a good idea. Also, the reasons given for it being Fade dueling does not seem to apply, with acid rocket being a hive 3 ability, and as anyone with a modicum of pistol skill can testify, a narrower cone does NOT make skulks any harder to kill.
Comments
Well, both variants does the same amount of damage to a Fade-sized target at a range up to five paces.
While I wouldn't call that "far away", if you say it works out fine in practice, then the numbers doesn't matter, of course.
Who care's if it can't spray? Any veteran who can shoot will nail that poor skulk no matter what.
Before HMG's could be dealt with at a range; now they are just the uber 1377 kill all weapon of doom.
I think the best way to balence the HMG's would be to lower it's ROF. Make it a high caliber, accurate, Machine Gun, one that gives out sustained fire rather than overwhelming power.
Or we could goto the S&I forum and bump my topic about how the default HMG should have one barrel, and an upgrade at the protolab gives it its second barrel (and thus becomes its full version)
Not only are you a one res marine, but that HMG you just dropped can be picked back up again...
Who care's if it can't spray? Any veteran who can shoot will nail that poor skulk no matter what.
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I dunno I was supposing that you'd have maybe some difficulty in a firefight, with the inability to jump away, your view jerking with his bites and a skulk turning all around your feet. But that's if he gets right at your feet. see maybe the cone will somehow pass over the skulk or something <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
yeah a bit like this
(the cone is very wrong)
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<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->.. \
.................\
.....<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ...\
edit: and if the guy aimed so well, he wouldn't have LET a skulk so close to him, and if he did, no matter the cone it wouldn't have made a difference
It will also <b>help</b> the melee Fades *Grin*
Because, at point blank, less cone means they have to be <b>more</b> accurate, meaning less hits and easier time for the Fade.
So, the HMG has got deadlier for sniping (another reason the Lerk is getting the blunt end) and weaker for close up (which is how it should be really, the marines are meant to <b>want</b> the aliens far away.)
This would also make HMGs very similar to the guns turrets have, which is cool. Turrets could get HMGs instead of their current gun (including a model change), and free one of those 32 weapon slots.
ehhh, the teams are actually balanced believe it or not. the HMG is a support weapon, and at NS_nothing i believe i go up the platform at marine spawn and deliver fire support with HMG. i think they perhaps could reduce damage or make it impossible to move while shooting except with JP(even then you will have reduced mobility). or perhaps make it cost more?