Comm Training.
esuna
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">My 2c.</div> Right. On the advice of everyone in the world, i decided the other day to start training myself as a comm, be it only for the pub games where +nobody+ wants to comm.
As everyone suggests i've been using bots as to not disrupt a server with my learning curve. And this is where a problem arises.
I don't mean to flame the bot coder in any way, i think he/she has done a fantastic job and i really hope that the project progresses. But to be honest, right now the bots are dumb. Too dumb. Infact, so dumb you're better off training on a pub server. I just can't see how you could hope to learn anything in the ways of commanding using the bots i've tried. For one, they find themselves not able to open doors, walk along a corridor and so on. On ns_nancy i found myself tearing my hair out as one squad was stuck down a vent just outside marine start, and the other half were at mess hall trying to walk through a closed door. I know what you're thinking, it's almost EXACTLY like a game on a pub server. But i find it hard to do anything whatsoever with them. I can give them orders to build something in base, but if they so much as catch the scent of a phasegate they're straight through it. This is frustrating to say the least.
But anyway, onto the point. Is there anyone that can help me learn to comm effectively either with these bots or any other means to do so. I have tried, i have tried a lot, but each game with the bots i usually end up suiting myself up with JP/.HMG and take out the hive on my own.
Once again, i feel i must state this is +IN NO WAY+ a flame to the creators of these bots, i understand it's not the easiest thing to do, and i admire you for getting this far.
As everyone suggests i've been using bots as to not disrupt a server with my learning curve. And this is where a problem arises.
I don't mean to flame the bot coder in any way, i think he/she has done a fantastic job and i really hope that the project progresses. But to be honest, right now the bots are dumb. Too dumb. Infact, so dumb you're better off training on a pub server. I just can't see how you could hope to learn anything in the ways of commanding using the bots i've tried. For one, they find themselves not able to open doors, walk along a corridor and so on. On ns_nancy i found myself tearing my hair out as one squad was stuck down a vent just outside marine start, and the other half were at mess hall trying to walk through a closed door. I know what you're thinking, it's almost EXACTLY like a game on a pub server. But i find it hard to do anything whatsoever with them. I can give them orders to build something in base, but if they so much as catch the scent of a phasegate they're straight through it. This is frustrating to say the least.
But anyway, onto the point. Is there anyone that can help me learn to comm effectively either with these bots or any other means to do so. I have tried, i have tried a lot, but each game with the bots i usually end up suiting myself up with JP/.HMG and take out the hive on my own.
Once again, i feel i must state this is +IN NO WAY+ a flame to the creators of these bots, i understand it's not the easiest thing to do, and i admire you for getting this far.
Comments
It's hard to ignore the abuse, especially on pubs, since the slightest step wrong you get ejected.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><b>EDIT:</b></span> Unrelated note, 50th post!! Yaaaaay!
Neway the best thing to do to train as comm is to watch how other comms work and then try to develop your own tactics around that framework, eg I sometimes build ip,armoury and arms lab, upgrade armour 2 times as all my guys are rushing the hives in waves, usualy breaks down the aliens and then just use LMG against the hive
Because being a Gorge you can just trundle off and do you own thing, noone is relying on you quite as directly as they are on a Marine comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rue+May 1 2003, 03:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rue @ May 1 2003, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Neway the best thing to do to train as comm is to watch how other comms work and then try to develop your own tactics around that framework, eg I sometimes build ip,armoury and arms lab, upgrade armour 2 times as all my guys are rushing the hives in waves, usualy breaks down the aliens and then just use LMG against the hive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have been, i'm usually that marine that offers to hang around at base and build stuff. But the problem is about upgrades, you never know when a comm is researching HA or HMG for example, or when he upgrades the armoury, or even all the weapons / armour upgrades (all the icons for each level look too alike). It's an exceptionally difficult thing to learn, since during all of this you've got marines calling on you from all around the map for health and armour.
phase gates
TF's
siege cannons
shotguns
everything else is bound to something. Use a program called NStool to bind everything.
That and patience will get you to be a good comm...
I think it's because of the teams. Aliens aren't constantly dependent on a gorge for their weapons and equipment (well they are dependent on them over upgrades), so they can in a lot of ways ignore the gorge(s) exist. Marines on the other hand, can only get structures and items via the comm, so in every way shape and form, they are dependent on the comm. This makes the marines a lot more aware of what the comm is doing or not doing. Plus, since everyone is convinced their style of play is the right way, marines will always be mad at the comm for not getting what they want when they want it everytime, where as the aliens can just evolve into what they want to be and play their style of play for the most part. Because of this, I think marines are more likely to horribly abuse their comm then aliens are to horribly abuse their gorges.
[edit] Sorry, didn't mean to sort of hijack the thread. As far as your question, I'd say just go on a random pub you never expect to play at again and comm, so that if they yell at you and whatnot it doesn't matter cause you'll never play there again.[/edit]
HA and JP i usualy ask what they want first and if i get no reply (i havnt had a reply to that question come to think of it) i will build whichever i think is needed most. HA if my marines are unable to handle the aliens or JP if they are about on top of the aliens (figurativly speaking).
conclusion: research when u think u got res to spare, and when u think they are needed most. every game is different u just gotta get in the chair and play.
I sympathise with you on the bots thing. they are pretty damm good for a game as complex as NS but i am lacking in hair now as they usualy dont even go to a waypoint at the end of a corridor that is exactly in fornt of them
also on some parts of the map they get out their knives and jsut run in circles slashing the air. forever.
[edit] what an unfortunate post count i have jsut now - 69 [/edit]
HA and JP i usualy ask what they want first and if i get no reply (i havnt had a reply to that question come to think of it) i will build whichever i think is needed most. HA if my marines are unable to handle the aliens or JP if they are about on top of the aliens (figurativly speaking).
conclusion: research when u think u got res to spare, and when u think they are needed most. every game is different u just gotta get in the chair and play.
I sympathise with you on the bots thing. they are pretty damm good for a game as complex as NS but i am lacking in hair now as they usualy dont even go to a waypoint at the end of a corridor that is exactly in fornt of them
also on some parts of the map they get out their knives and jsut run in circles slashing the air. forever.
[edit] what an unfortunate post count i have jsut now - 69 [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come to think of it, i think you're the person i last commed against, when there's was about 2-3 people on some pub server. I told you i sucked <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ummm this isnt meant to be spam but i suppose it is . :|
I tend to :
- Make an IP
- Make an armoury
- Get at least 3 or so RTs (while doing other stuff like below)
- Send out some scouts to look at the hives / get the RTs at the hives
- Make Arms Lab (get first upgrades)
- Upgrade Armoury
- Secure hives with Phasegates / Turrets <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> (this like RTs is an ongoing thing)
- Make observatory (motion too depending if we need it if not i just dont get an observatory)
- Get a proto (JP)
- Focus on arms lab upgrades
- Win / Lose
thats brief but what do you guys do?
ummm this isnt meant to be spam but i suppose it is . :| <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as i remember it, you were on the aliens, on ns_eclipse. Then loads of people connected and ejected me for being a "noob comm" iirc.
IP
Armory
then nodes and arms lab
I like to upgrade rush, having level three weapons early on proves to be a huge advantage,
though i was trained on www.gamingsa.com server, by the chick comm, and she knew what to do
I have how ever fallen pray to death match comming, and waste res rather fast in a mission map.
mission comm stargd -
I normaly drop 1 IP
i ammo shop, and upgrade as soon as built
look for a close res node, and get my trops to go there
put a res on top - with a tf, and upto 4 turants to protect it
put out 3 mine packs, and get my marines to mind the stuff at home
look for a hive, and send 2 trops there to check if its empty
IF I want to move, i do, though most of the time i don't
put out labs, and start upgradeing lvl 2 ammo, and JP's
after that i get stuck, and don't know what to do
(thats where flamage comms in and my marrines tell me what to do <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
amckern
I tend to :
- Make an IP
- Make an armoury
- Get at least 3 or so RTs (while doing other stuff like below)
- Send out some scouts to look at the hives / get the RTs at the hives
- Make Arms Lab (get first upgrades)
- Upgrade Armoury
- Secure hives with Phasegates / Turrets <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->? <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->? (this like RTs is an ongoing thing)
- Make observatory (motion too depending if we need it if not i just dont get an observatory)
- Get a proto (JP)
- Focus on arms lab upgrades
- Win / Lose
thats brief but what do you guys do? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not bad, but I bet you lose a bit more than you win. Here is my way, which is very map dependant.
Pub Strat:
- Enter chair
- Tell marines to wait a moment, maybe drop an IP if they whine too much (usually I skip the first IP, marines who can't respawn tend to shoot better, go figure)
- Listen for hive location
- Relocate to (non-taken)hive/atmo/processing, whatever is best for map
-Build new chair
-build IP
-build res tower
-armory + mines
-2nd res maybe a 3rd
-Send half of team to other hive
-get new hive res
-TF+ 4 or 5 turrets
-Obs
-Link both hives with phase gates
-Arms Lab + both 20 res upgrades
-yadda...tech and defend till upgraded enough to kill hive
<b>This is called a 2-hive lockdown, just my personal way of doing it, I wait a bit for the phasegates</b>
Clan Strat/Vet players strat
-IP
-Armory
-RT or 2
-Arms Lab
-Protolab
-recycle Arms Lab
-Research JP
-Give out JP and kill hive
-If hive doesn't die, rebuild arms, upgrade weapons and armor
-Hive dies.
<b>Textbook JP rush</b>
To avoid abuse later on keep informing the players of the situation in general, what upgrades you've just placed on research, what objectives they should achieve next and, most importantly, WHY should they achieve them. For example, "Please regroup at Eclipse, team. Then move on to CC. I'll scan it in advance and mark all hiding enemies. When you reach CC, kill the gorge, then wait for PG and guard it". Usually when someone bothers to tell the rines what exactly are they dying for, they'll smile and act nice.
Ofcourse there are some obnoxious "HMG JP PLZ"-spammers who scream "eject n00b comm!!1!" the moment they see a proto lab up but no JP for them. If you've managed to convince the rest of the team that you generally have a good idea of what to do next, they are less likely to vote for ejecting.
[edit]
Yay. That's 100 posts.
After this phase you will want to concentrate on specific strategies, and tell the team. Once the team knows what you aim for they tend to do what you want. You might get the occasional complaint about comm at the end of a game if you lose, but when you win the praise is worth it ;]
As everyone suggests i've been using bots as to not disrupt a server with my learning curve. And this is where a problem arises.
I don't mean to flame the bot coder in any way, i think he/she has done a fantastic job and i really hope that the project progresses. But to be honest, right now the bots are dumb. Too dumb. Infact, so dumb you're better off training on a pub server. I just can't see how you could hope to learn anything in the ways of commanding using the bots i've tried. For one, they find themselves not able to open doors, walk along a corridor and so on. On ns_nancy i found myself tearing my hair out as one squad was stuck down a vent just outside marine start, and the other half were at mess hall trying to walk through a closed door. I know what you're thinking, it's almost EXACTLY like a game on a pub server. But i find it hard to do anything whatsoever with them. I can give them orders to build something in base, but if they so much as catch the scent of a phasegate they're straight through it. This is frustrating to say the least.
But anyway, onto the point. Is there anyone that can help me learn to comm effectively either with these bots or any other means to do so. I have tried, i have tried a lot, but each game with the bots i usually end up suiting myself up with JP/.HMG and take out the hive on my own.
Once again, i feel i must state this is +IN NO WAY+ a flame to the creators of these bots, i understand it's not the easiest thing to do, and i admire you for getting this far. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the trick to commanding is to get your troops to listen to you. In order to do that you have to give them incentive. Incentive can be anywhere from an HMG or ammo/health for executing orders. Its a 2 way street, the commander cant do anything by himself, and the marines cant get too far without a comm. So the best thing to do is when people accomplish something, either reward with health and/or ammo if needed, or promise them some gear when its teched.
The best way to learn this is to actually play with human players, because they are unpredictable. You have to worry that if the marines dont do as ordered, what is your back up plan? Always be able to adapt to current situations in cases surprises happen.
Pub Strat:
- Enter chair
- Tell marines to wait a moment, maybe drop an IP if they whine too much (usually I skip the first IP, marines who can't respawn tend to shoot better, go figure)
- Listen for hive location
- Relocate to (non-taken)hive/atmo/processing, whatever is best for map
-Build new chair
-build IP
-build res tower
-armory + mines
-2nd res maybe a 3rd
-Send half of team to other hive
-get new hive res
-TF+ 4 or 5 turrets
-Obs
-Link both hives with phase gates
-Arms Lab + both 20 res upgrades
-yadda...tech and defend till upgraded enough to kill hive
<b>This is called a 2-hive lockdown, just my personal way of doing it, I wait a bit for the phasegates</b>
Clan Strat/Vet players strat
-IP
-Armory
-RT or 2
-Arms Lab
-Protolab
-recycle Arms Lab
-Research JP
-Give out JP and kill hive
-If hive doesn't die, rebuild arms, upgrade weapons and armor
-Hive dies.
<b>Textbook JP rush</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for the tips <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .. i dont comm much cause i dont play much (work) and when i do i like to be active in helping out the comm so he doesn't get ****. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
the strat i used is a flexable one.
it goes
one ip
ammo depot
arms lab
armor 1. (some say whepons 1 but i dissagree. its better to take 3 bites)
because i am on a server i am used to. i know the people that are dependable.
i send one person to the hive that is out of the way. and begin the res gettinhg.
i mostly seige hives and spend most of my res on upgrades. you cant go wrong with upgrades.
Its Redphive and C-D is needed but a good comm is always welcome!
People are usually friendly there and if not you just tell me I'll go after em' for being mean <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Don't worry they won't eject future Master Commanders! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you want to learn just take over and have fun!
if you come into irc you can find me @ #espclan or several other channels. just ask, i'll let you comm me around <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> heh, seriously, yeh we can join an empty server and you can do some comming.
- two IPs
- armoury
- mines for initial defense
- Obs (Distress signal is underused, but is so handy)
- secure a hive locations with a tf an tfs, and PGs
- build armoury and proto
- get to lvl. 3 weps ASAP
- get to lvl. 3 armour
- get JPs, and HAs if needed
- watch commando marine with JP and HMG take out hive by himself
- if hive location lost or hive location defended well, build sieges at some location and blast them to bits
- If losing, build tf in base, and sieges in base to clear the clutter that usually happens when marines are losing bad
- If losing really bad, start a nice turret farm
- If all is hopeless, hop out of chair and start knifing Onos.
and then there's stuff that pisses people off, and that would be
- dropping too many mines
- turret factory in base when not needed
- not listening to calls for ammo and health
- not setting waypoints
- not listening to people
and a whole bunch of stuff. The most important key when comming? Spacebar.
-o.X.Ghost- <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->