It Doesn't Get Simpler.

BurncycleBurncycle Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9759Members, NS1 Playtester
edited April 2003 in Frontiersmen Strategy
<div class="IPBDescription">This is how a marine team is successful</div> Yes, you heard it a million times on the forum, and here it is again.

The 3 keys to being successful on the 'rine team. Welcome to bootcamp boys.
1) Tactical flexibility.
2) Coordination.
3) Communication.

Thats all there is to it. Upgrades, HA, JP's, all of that is nice but without those 3 qualities you won't get anywhere. With those 3 qualities you won't NEED upgrades/HA/JP's- it'll all be over before then.


1) Tactical flexibility. Flatline, and several others has said this over and over. Commanders, assess and adapt to your situation. That relocation outside their hive fail? Then don't do it again. Adapt, move on. If you try it again, and fail again, where does that get you? You lost resources, morale, and most especially, time. I'm always so surprised to see so many mine tactics in 1.04. When it works, its great; key word is WHEN IT WORKS. If the mines fail early on, kiss it goodbye and restart. Which is why I'm not sure why they risk it so much. Like starcraft; zerg rush in the beginning; if it works, great, if it doesn't, your behind and your not going to last long. I get about 1 out of 3 or 4 games where mines fail and it's just over- with turrets, we always at least survived till fade. I guess thats why I don't command much anymore. I usually try to have a plan, and a plan B in case the plan fails. With mine d, there is no plan B. There is very very few oppertunities to recover, and you almost always lose time, and thats why I dislike it so much. They are good in some cases, but as a short term solution; guarding the resource in a location close to the enemy, a phase gate, etc. One or two packs are great, 5 or 6 packs to mine everything you own up is a bad move IMO.

Anyway, the ability to adapt seperates good commanders from just average commanders, obviously.

But it goes further. What seperates excellent commanders from good commanders? Understanding your troops.

You absolutely HAVE to understand who is playing on your team, wheither they are strangers (you can generally test them by seeing how they perform early on) or clanmembers. Do you have a team who just can't shoot straight tonight? (it happens, even to the best of us) take that into account when ordering your next move. If they can't hit ****, don't put them in a tight location with no room and expect them to defend it. I hear commanders SCREAM literally "get to red room, get to red room!" only to have their team slaughtered each and every time and waste 20 minutes. They're going to die, get seperated, and scatter; thats assuming that you could get them there all together in the first place. No, if your team can't shoot straight, Put them in a larger area thats closer to base and easier to defend. If they are all l337 killa's, then maybe you can be more daring.

I see commanders freak out because "my troops aren't doing what I'm telling them too, they're not doing what they're supposed to do". When in reality, it's the commander who is not assessing the quality of his troops. The commander is partally at fault because he's not observant enough to understand that the orders he is giving to his troops are not orders his troops are physically able to carry out. They find some l337 strategy and they tell everyone to go to it, but sometimes they don't- well, your troops are human. This aint' starcraft where the guys blindly follow orders, never miss, and don't _need_ to understand that you have a "master plan". In natural selection, if your thinking 7 moves ahead, thats great; but most of the time your going to have some strangers on your team who will question you, or just simply CAN'T do what your asking them to do. In that case, you've got to, all together now, _adapt_. Tell your troops to do something they can do.

If you've got 2 good people on your team, and the rest are strangers, have some follow each of the good people. This won't always work, because sometimes these newbies are utterly useless; for instance: "I told them to go to mantinence. They either died before they got there because they can't handle one enemy, or they don't know where mantinence is. Ok, so I adapt; I give them a simpler order. Follow this guy because he knows what he's doing, just back him up. Man, this guy won't even follow the good person....." in that situation, there's not much you can do- don't spazz, just hope they draw fire and give the people who know what they're doing a chance <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

On the other hand, be patient. If they don't respond to voice orders, type the order out. If they STILL don't respond, just don't include them when your handing out the HMG/JP's. If they're utterly useless, blowing a vein by yelling at them at the top of your lungs is not going to suddenly make them better. If your team is horrible at responding (say there is a phase gate from main base to eclipse, they're all at eclipse, and your main base gets attacked. When say "Get back, main base is under attack, just go through the #*)$& phase gate!" and it takes them 5 minutes to FIGURE IT OUT, just take it into account. Maybe grabbing that hive is too big a step... If the enemy has grabbed a key location, and you've been throwing troops at it for the past 10 minutes and they're not budging, TRY SOMETHING ELSE. Attack their main base perhaps, or some other location.

Anyway, back to the HA/JP statement above. Heavy armor REQUIRES coordination; traveling in groups to be "invincible". And JP's REQUIRE dicipline, to prevent n00b's from going rambo and dying off. So before you start throwing stuff out, make sure you know your team. Even if they're strangers, you should have a pretty good idea how they act by the time you give this stuff out. I'm a big HA buff myself, because it can bring you back from the brink of destruction as long as your team can work together; but if my team can't get it together by now, HA is not going to save them. Think about the players in your team before you decid wheither or not to go the HA route, JP route, or a mix.

Ok, but everyone is sick of all of this; it's been repeated over and over. You all already know about adapting to your situation, if one strat doesnt' work, adjust. "I'm going to play a game, I can't or won't remember all of this for various reasons. So whats the one thing you want me at least contemplating next time I go command?" Well, I just want you to take a look at your troops next time and adjust your strategy and thoughts according to THEIR ability. Thats all for this part.

2) Coordination. You already know this is important. No sense beating a dead horse; proper coordination or poor coordination all leads straight back to the quality of player issue, and the commander needs to take it into account.

3) Communication: directly proportional to the above two steps. You need to be aware of your situation, and communicate; a good team will respond or at least have a heads up. It's not uncommon for me, as a 'rine, to understand whats going on at the other side of the map at least somewhat. "Billys over there? Good... WHOA, billy screamed "3...." and just now died... well, he was in main aft junction.... which means the enemy is probably heading to xxx in force, I'd better meet them there, or get 2 or 3 guys to meet them there..."

Your not mrs. Cleo, but #(*$ they'll think you are. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> thats true in all games. Just be aware; for example, in most games I rely on sound 50% of the time, "awareness" 40% of the time, and visual 10% of the time. The only time I need to rely on visual is when I'm shooting at the enemies. With sound, you can know where the enemy is even when you can't see him, and with awareness, you can know where the enemy is even when you can't hear him (aka "billy died, and he was here... thats behind us! Wow! The rest of my team are blissfully unaware, attacking the force that is destracting them, while he swings around. Even though "billy" didn't get a warning out, I remember he went that way, and because I'm observant, I'm gonna go meet the enemy and frag them, or at least warn my team to look behind them" Trust me, it happens, it happens all the time, and it can be the difference between turning the tide, or getting finished off. Although thats most apparent in counterstrike, it also applies to any game.

In natural selection in particular, if they've got onos, you've already done something wrong. Might as well issue some toys if you have the money and have some fun before it's over <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> If they've got fade, it's too late to start a plan. On the other hand, if your in the middle of carrying out a plan, then you may still be victorious.

I'd really like to see the ability to promote soldiers. I'd like to see the commander be able to say "You, and you are my best troops, and so now your' sergeants." and have some sort of tracking thing like a waypoint so everyone can see where the "sergeants" are; so newbies can at least follow someone and help out.

Ah well. In any case, I tend to write whole books to get my point across whereas some people can write a sentence and be just as effective in conveying the meaning- but I just felt like rambling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

by the by, if you can't kill skulks, you might want to try the toro method.... wait till they're almost on you, yell "TORO!" really loud in your microphone, and step aside as the skulk sails past, then nail them as they turn around for a second pass... doesn't always work, but at least your parents will think your strange for yelling toro <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->






*******************************************
I'm obviously re-iterating points already brought up by other people in their strategy guides- but the one single thing out of all points that I want to stress here, is take your troops into account. And THAT is not so common. We finally got the "adapt" concept across to alot of the commanders, but this one is a little rarer <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

Hey look, theres my short version <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

Comments

  • BurncycleBurncycle Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9759Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited April 2003
    To re-iterate; I hear some guys say:
    "I like to keep 2 at my base, 2 at the hive, the rest killing resources"
    or
    "I like to send them all out and defend my base with mines"
    or
    "I like to send a force to pound their hive while the rest nab resources"

    But why do you like to do ONE thing? Shouldn't it depend on your enemies actions (adaptability), as well as your own troops capabilities (takeing troop quality into account)?

    As I mentioned: study your current troops. Think about what they can realistically handle, and thus see what your options are. Sometimes you _can't_ do one of the above; your team just can't get it together; sometimes you can do any of the above- sometimes you wanna do a mix, changing it halfway through. It all depends on what the capability of your current team is. And this is how you can possibly win even with a poor team (by not giving them so demanding orders), and how you can ensure victory with a good team.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    This needs sticky.

    Glad someone else uses the TORO! method
  • LitanyLitany Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8043Members
    Indeed. Someone PM an admin asking for teh stickz0rs.
  • sejsej Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12488Members
    If its so simple why such a long post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BurncycleBurncycle Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9759Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited April 2003
    Because I broke each of the 3 main parts down, and, as I said, I tend to write ALOT to explain a point that other people can sum up in a few sentences. But obviously you knew that already because you actually read the whole thing and saw that I already explained that.... right?

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    edited April 2003
    THE GOLDEN RULE TO PLAYING NS.

    Who ever has the gold, rules.....jk..

    really now. the key to excellent rine gameplay <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> IS TO DO WHAT YOUR COMMANDER TELLs YOU TO do! OMG ITS THAT EASY? YES IT IS!! </span>

    if he tells you to jump off a brige THEN DO IT!
    if he tell you to sneak deep into skulk infested terrority THEN DO IT!
    if he tells you to rush the fades THEN DO IT!
    if he tells you to seach for the enemy hive THEN DO IT!

    AND DONT DO WHAT HE DOENST TELL YOU TO DO!

    if you get no orders THEN STAY WHERE YOU ARE!

    yes..its as easy at that.
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    amen

    (he speaks the truth)
    but if the commander is a llama then eject him <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BurncycleBurncycle Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9759Members, NS1 Playtester
    There you go <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    Very well written.

    Commanders should never have all of their team doing one thing, like you said. Confining yourself to "Having my team all move to their hive and set up a siege, while the base is being defended by mines" is a death sentence. Think about it from an alien point of view. What do skulks do early game? They roam the map and try to contain expansion. They're all over the map.

    Your Marines should be passing all over the map as well, if they're not on a concentrated attack. Being too focused on one area or tactic blinds you to the stuff happening around you, even in your own base. So be versatile and move your forces around.
  • OldManRipper-nCOldManRipper-nC Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13871Members
    Well said. Amen.

    -OldManRipper
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    If the Comm IS a llama, he usually doesnt communicate with you or tell you to do anything.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--sej+Apr 24 2003, 11:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sej @ Apr 24 2003, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If its so simple why such a long post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, let him never know of our attempts to win public rounds with just knives.
  • MindmeldmeMindmeldme The Evil One Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1637Members
    i have been speaking on this many times...epecially to new commanders asking for advice. This seems on par with flatline as well. Well thought out and written. Bloody good job. Sadly I find if my marines can't kill a skulk with a LMG...I oyou can be ambushed and some are REALLY good skulks but, come now...it was a long hallway, he was wounded...you can't hit anything. Here's a shotty or something and a friend...go that way and play while my good troops construct this here siege and lay waste to the hive.

    I do many times wish I could promote my really good marine to Sargent role...give them some bonuses or something. Would be a nice reward since I have so few usually in game.
  • RatfireRatfire Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15091Members
    I completely agree with everything that is being said. And I'm sure, that just about everyone here (anyone who posts on the Frontiersman forums not just this post) understands the importance of this, and has the ability to survive a skulk rush down a hallway. The problem is, we have the talented players who read at all that is written here, and then you have the majority of players who don't look at the forums and do whatever they want in the public games. The simplest solution right now seems to be either to join a clan, or get on a server with 10 of your closest friends. But who knows, may the NS team will throw something in that will really give an incentive for everyone to follow the commander's orders.


    Ratfire
  • Brave_UlyssesBrave_Ulysses Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15922Members
    edited May 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Apr 24 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Apr 24 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THE GOLDEN RULE TO PLAYING NS.

    Who ever has the gold, rules.....jk..

    really now. the key to excellent rine gameplay <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> IS TO DO WHAT YOUR COMMANDER TELLs YOU TO do! OMG ITS THAT EASY? YES IT IS!! </span>

    if he tells you to jump off a brige THEN DO IT!
    if he tell you to sneak deep into skulk infested terrority THEN DO IT!
    if he tells you to rush the fades THEN DO IT!
    if he tells you to seach for the enemy hive THEN DO IT!

    AND DONT DO WHAT HE DOENST TELL YOU TO DO!

    if you get no orders THEN STAY WHERE YOU ARE!

    yes..its as easy at that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, but I've encountered a lot of extremely idiotic commanders. Note - NOT newbies. In fact n00bs would never act this way. Only experienced commanders would because they have done it so long that they think they have turned into god. They have their heads so far up their arses they end up looking <a href='http://www.fathom.org/teemingmillions/head-in-****.jpg' target='_blank'>like this</a>. (Replace that censored word with American word for "arse")

    Who do I mean? You know - those freaks who insanely scream at you with all sorts of distorted radio spam because they gave you a waypoint you haven't gone to. And why not? Because getting there involves running a gauntlet of OC farms and skulk ambushes. So you TRY but end up dying & retrying, or backing away and shouting for ammo/health. And that stupid wanker BLACKMAILS you. Yes - he has gotten so cheesed off at what he considers insubordination on your part that he says he'll "give you health when you get to your waypoint!" Jesus Christ with dried egg yolk in his beard... I need that health NOW so I don't die taking out those OCs! Some people...

    And those Comms who call you a (homosexual) loser n00b for not dealing with skulk on two occasions in row. They say: "It's only ONE SKULK!" Sorry but I've only just started playing this game, I don't have twitch-gaming/Counter-Strike experience and I don't have a mighty godly computer that can run consistently at 95 frames per second like some people - this tends to make aiming at bounding skulks a bit harder.

    Even worse - they then get out of their CC to deal with that skulk only to get torn limb from limb in less than a second. Nice one.
  • JavertJavert Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15954Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Mindmeld_me+May 3 2003, 10:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mindmeld_me @ May 3 2003, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do many times wish I could promote my really good marine to Sargent role...give them some bonuses or something. Would be a nice reward since I have so few usually in game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That would be an interesting idea, allow a two-tier promotion to separate the good from the bad. It lets comm and other players know they're good. And now in 1.1 with the ability to puts rines in subgroups, it would be automatic in who would be a group leader.
  • Brave_UlyssesBrave_Ulysses Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15922Members
    edited May 2003
    And what do you class as "good"? Someone who can kill 5 members of a skulk rush with a single LMG clip? I wish commanders would actually take their team's strengths & weaknesses into account and dish out roles based on that - instead of just seeing each marine as interchangeable with another.
  • JammerJammer Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
    edited May 2003
    Sticky! Sticky!

    I do agree that commanders are too set on the tried and true tactics. Marines usually lose when they are unable to adapt to the aliens. The game title refers to evolution, and marine teams need to evolve in combat just as the aliens evolve in class.

    For example:
    I was playing Caged on CoFR. We started at our Vent and branched out to sewers. The marine team got tight hold on cargo. Phase, turrets, armory, marines. We just kept skulk rushing and took it down. Once we had them on the defensive, we took res nodes at will almost. The commander just started sending out lone jpers to our hives, but was unable to mount a coordinated assualt or plan. His intial plan of quick seige had failed, leaving him sputtering about what to do.

    The commander SHOULD have tried to seige sewer once it was clear he had lost Cargo. He'd have Gen and Sewer and a 2 hive tech lockdown.

    EDIT
    And yes, many commanders are annoying, but most are good. Find a server, become a regular. Commander problem solved! :-)
  • Black_KingBlack_King Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16076Members
    If everyone does exactly what the comm says to the best of his ability, then the comm has only himself to blame if everything goes **** up. Then get a new comm for the next game.
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