i was in a game the other day at the CoFR server (so you know that most players were not noobs), map: bast
we skulk rushed and took out a lot of stuff, they had to move to engine
we had feed,
i told the gorge, its pretty much over, drop a sen first, suprisingly HE DID IT!!!
i have to tell you, it was the second best game of NS i have ever played!!!
just clocking, letting marines pass you but while they walk inches from your face, hitting them from behind,
we guarded refenary with clocked skulks while the gorge built up and was our DC(you only need 1 sen tower, that saved 28 res btw), refinary when up, and DC came up and we got carapace, we battled back to win the game
The problem is if you are playing against an effecient marine team. If they are, the comm will wise up or the rines will. Either way your pretty dead.
Also to adress your "fun point," yes I bet it was a lot of fun, but so is rushing a hive with lmg or shotguns within the first 3 minutes of the game. Both tactics however are extremely inefficient, and only practiced bye odd commanders. (I for one do one shotgun rush a week; and I make sure I do, thats my quota).
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
sense first DOES work. it takes marines completely by surprise. take this example:
ns_nancy, i was running around, scouting and seeing what they had. i came across a sense chamber (it was very early, so we knew it was their first upgrade). i had just enough time to say: "ahahaha, who the hell is the n00b gorg?" then a skulk, who as actualy sitting on top of the sense tower, killed me.
Right, so now the whole team is paranoid. We had a relativly good comm (not brilliant, but good by public standards), but we didnt have the res to keep scanning everywhere. We had noname locked down, and there was no way they were getting in without Defence. i went off down the maintenance shaft, level 2 weapons, but no armour (we didnt think it nessecary for some reason). I was crawling, because id heard a skulk around there somewhere. then, for some reason, i just stopped moving forward. At the last minute, it clicked in my head, and i started firing. But it was too late, and the damn skulk killed me.
This was happening all over the place, and it was scaring the **** out of the rine team. unfortunatly, i had to leave before the game ended, but i think the aliens had the second hive going up.
there are 2 problems with sense first:
Bravery:
i am NOT going to put down a sense first, because it annoys the team and you get people saying: "Oh rines, the noob gorg put a sense first. we're in port hive, come get us"
Inexperience:
With the standard pattern of DMS, and the shortening of games (i havent seen a game last longer than 2 hives in a long time), people are getting less used to sense chambers. Consider this, using the standard pattern (DMS), when was the last time you found a sensory chamber useful? the only thing it is good for is finding the last marine, cos lets face it, 3 hive = aliens win. an onos does not need cloak.
oh yeah:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Catpoker @ Apr 9 2003, 02:22 PM) if you cant kill a marine while uncarapaced:
am·bush n. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise. A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
Those hiding in order to attack by surprise. The hiding place used for this. A hidden peril or trap.
tr.v. am·bushed, am·bush·ing, am·bush·es To attack from a concealed position.
its called scanner sweep... cough <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 21 2003, 05:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 21 2003, 05:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MOTION FIRST, WHATS WRONG!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, MC... My memory is bad, but if I'm right that's silence, celerity, adrenaline. Hmm. Well, adrenaline benefits gorges and lerks, by letting them spike/heal better. Celerity is good for gorges and skulks. Skulks are blindingly fast, and gorges don't have such a hard time fleeing from determined pursuers. Silence is great for skulks: You hide in a vent, you wait for the marine(s) to pass (use headphones so you can hear where they are), then you run up to them from behind and bite their feet off. I see many marines who rely on their hearing to protect their backs. So what's wrong with motion? Basically, nothing. It just requires a different mindset (again) to play. I prefer cloaking over silence, but that's me. However, most people are so adjusted to DC that they WILL be totally helpless without it (and, in the cases I have seen, GIVE UP AND HIT F4 AS SOON AS YOU BUILD A MC!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->). Marines that start watching their back are much harder to sneak up on (especially without carapace), so silence will probably only work until the marines notice why they're getting ambushed at every corner they round. Most likely, somebody will soon say: "MC may work against a bad team, but a good comm will beat you every time." Well, that's only if you aren't even smarter than the comm. Basically, in NS, the smart leader wins. If the opponent is smarter than you, then you're screwed no matter what you do (because you aren't smart enough to do the right thing). If the marine comm is a pro, and your gorge is not, then your only chance is to have a few expert skulks on your team or the marines royally messing up. If your gorge is good, your skulks can kill without cara (that is, they know how to play defence, ambush the marines, and keep them from setting bases up), and the comm and 'rines don't know how to counter silent, invisible or fast skulks, then you will win.
FIrst of ALL you only need one sens this early on...... which leaves you with 32 res you would have spent on defence, Use those 32 damn res to put an offence chamber in every hive location this will slow the marines down alot and bring to your attention when a hive is being attacked.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
one of any upgrade chamber is pretty much useless, u need the full three to get any use out of it. even if you dont need 3, ull still get whiney buggers shouting "PPut teh third chamber up n000b gorg!!1" even if you put 3 senses up u save 12 res, so that's still ok
The only benfit more sens chamebrs give to cloakers is faster cloaking. And you don't (usually) need that .5 sec faster cloak time, so it does kind of save 32 res.
It also affects how well you are cloaked. One sensory chamber will cloak you, but it is pretty easy to see a level 1 cloaked alien. But I could be wrong as it is hard to see yourself, but I think that it affects both speed and quality of the cloak.
ok if you guys are really really that much of a noob to think that the amount of cloaking from 1 chamber to 3 chambers is any differnt then dont post. Go out and learn what the hell your talking about before you post your stupid comments and embarras yourself. YOU ONLY NEED 1 CHAMBER!!! the only thing that more chambers does is increse the speed that you cloak.
OK so heres how you do it. you build 1 sens chamber and then 1 res tower then you go to each hive that you are not in yet and build a offence chamber. This will cost you a grand total of 50 res. But not only did you get a great ability for the start of the game but you also have 1 more res tower then you would with defence and you have a gardian at each hive that will warn you if marines are moving to it. if you do this correctly you will have 2 hives no problem. The only hard part with sensory is when 2 hives rolls around. For your second chamber you get movment. most games all the newbs just go fade YOU DONT WANT ALL FADES!! you need to have atleast a lerk with every pack and a gorg to if you can manage it. The reason you do this is so lerks can umbra constantly and spike and gorgs can use healing spray and web endlessly. if you have never come up agianst a umbra fade that is being healed then i am glad because they are impossible to kill with or without defence chambers. The grenade launcher is the one and only way to counter this trio and if you got a good lerk it wont work. Spikes do 18 damage it is unlisted but true. that means a good lerk will kill the gren happy marine within seconds. what HA you say?!?!?! well there is a little know and understood ability called leap. when used correctly you can kill an ha marine with full upgrades in 1.5 seconds(find leap guide somwere else). The reason leap and sensory work so well together is that you can sit and cloak at places were the HA marines usualy camp and shoot around corners. This is were you set up your one hit kill(well actualy it takes 2 leaps but still). Wait for the HA marine to stop moving, like reloading or somthing, Then leap down on top of him looking striaght down on his head(then .5 seconds after the first leap do another one)this should kill him and he'll say "WTH!?!?!? OMG HACKS".
sensory first is not weak its just misunderstood. I would like alot of servers to enforce sensory first only on their servers, atleast for a little while, so that these stratiges can be perfected.
I've seen to many **** #$#$ed up admins to try and put sensory down first myself. I love it and i love motion. But twice ive seen after entire team votes for sensory the admin kick the gorge for building it cause either the admin or admins friend who whined didnt like. Can we say Killfox.
ThinGLord of wub and vlaaiJoin Date: 2003-04-11Member: 15400Members, Reinforced - Supporter
my humble opinion:
Yes it works Yes it's a hellova lot of fun Yes I have tried it Yes we had a fairly decent team (Roob's server with some of the regulars in there) Yes it does take more than your average run, jump, and bite his head off tactic
BUT IT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH MORE FUN
if you take sensory first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This argument has been well flogged. In the end it comes down to preference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread should have ended a long long time ago...
But I can't resiste to jump in. For whoever said a marine can kill a skulk even if one is ambushed... Don't tell us you haven't seen 2 or even 3 marines getting wasted by a single skulk.
Play nice, as 1.1 is coming soon.
BTW, is AK the best gun in CS? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
we skulk rushed and took out a lot of stuff, they had to move to engine
we had feed,
i told the gorge, its pretty much over, drop a sen first, suprisingly HE DID IT!!!
i have to tell you, it was the second best game of NS i have ever played!!!
just clocking, letting marines pass you but while they walk inches from your face, hitting them from behind,
we guarded refenary with clocked skulks while the gorge built up and was our DC(you only need 1 sen tower, that saved 28 res btw), refinary when up, and DC came up and we got carapace, we battled back to win the game
its just so freaking fun
Also to adress your "fun point," yes I bet it was a lot of fun, but so is rushing a hive with lmg or shotguns within the first 3 minutes of the game. Both tactics however are extremely inefficient, and only practiced bye odd commanders. (I for one do one shotgun rush a week; and I make sure I do, thats my quota).
ns_nancy, i was running around, scouting and seeing what they had. i came across a sense chamber (it was very early, so we knew it was their first upgrade). i had just enough time to say:
"ahahaha, who the hell is the n00b gorg?"
then a skulk, who as actualy sitting on top of the sense tower, killed me.
Right, so now the whole team is paranoid. We had a relativly good comm (not brilliant, but good by public standards), but we didnt have the res to keep scanning everywhere. We had noname locked down, and there was no way they were getting in without Defence. i went off down the maintenance shaft, level 2 weapons, but no armour (we didnt think it nessecary for some reason). I was crawling, because id heard a skulk around there somewhere. then, for some reason, i just stopped moving forward. At the last minute, it clicked in my head, and i started firing. But it was too late, and the damn skulk killed me.
This was happening all over the place, and it was scaring the **** out of the rine team. unfortunatly, i had to leave before the game ended, but i think the aliens had the second hive going up.
there are 2 problems with sense first:
Bravery:
i am NOT going to put down a sense first, because it annoys the team and you get people saying:
"Oh rines, the noob gorg put a sense first. we're in port hive, come get us"
Inexperience:
With the standard pattern of DMS, and the shortening of games (i havent seen a game last longer than 2 hives in a long time), people are getting less used to sense chambers. Consider this, using the standard pattern (DMS), when was the last time you found a sensory chamber useful? the only thing it is good for is finding the last marine, cos lets face it, 3 hive = aliens win. an onos does not need cloak.
oh yeah:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Catpoker @ Apr 9 2003, 02:22 PM)
if you cant kill a marine while uncarapaced:
am·bush
n.
The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
Those hiding in order to attack by surprise.
The hiding place used for this.
A hidden peril or trap.
tr.v. am·bushed, am·bush·ing, am·bush·es
To attack from a concealed position.
its called scanner sweep... cough <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant scan the whole map all the time... cough
MOTION FIRST, WHATS WRONG!
flame on.
Hmm, MC... My memory is bad, but if I'm right that's silence, celerity, adrenaline. Hmm. Well, adrenaline benefits gorges and lerks, by letting them spike/heal better. Celerity is good for gorges and skulks. Skulks are blindingly fast, and gorges don't have such a hard time fleeing from determined pursuers. Silence is great for skulks: You hide in a vent, you wait for the marine(s) to pass (use headphones so you can hear where they are), then you run up to them from behind and bite their feet off. I see many marines who rely on their hearing to protect their backs.
So what's wrong with motion? Basically, nothing. It just requires a different mindset (again) to play. I prefer cloaking over silence, but that's me. However, most people are so adjusted to DC that they WILL be totally helpless without it (and, in the cases I have seen, GIVE UP AND HIT F4 AS SOON AS YOU BUILD A MC!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->). Marines that start watching their back are much harder to sneak up on (especially without carapace), so silence will probably only work until the marines notice why they're getting ambushed at every corner they round.
Most likely, somebody will soon say: "MC may work against a bad team, but a good comm will beat you every time." Well, that's only if you aren't even smarter than the comm. Basically, in NS, the smart leader wins. If the opponent is smarter than you, then you're screwed no matter what you do (because you aren't smart enough to do the right thing). If the marine comm is a pro, and your gorge is not, then your only chance is to have a few expert skulks on your team or the marines royally messing up. If your gorge is good, your skulks can kill without cara (that is, they know how to play defence, ambush the marines, and keep them from setting bases up), and the comm and 'rines don't know how to counter silent, invisible or fast skulks, then you will win.
even if you put 3 senses up u save 12 res, so that's still ok
OK so heres how you do it. you build 1 sens chamber and then 1 res tower then you go to each hive that you are not in yet and build a offence chamber. This will cost you a grand total of 50 res. But not only did you get a great ability for the start of the game but you also have 1 more res tower then you would with defence and you have a gardian at each hive that will warn you if marines are moving to it. if you do this correctly you will have 2 hives no problem. The only hard part with sensory is when 2 hives rolls around. For your second chamber you get movment. most games all the newbs just go fade YOU DONT WANT ALL FADES!! you need to have atleast a lerk with every pack and a gorg to if you can manage it. The reason you do this is so lerks can umbra constantly and spike and gorgs can use healing spray and web endlessly. if you have never come up agianst a umbra fade that is being healed then i am glad because they are impossible to kill with or without defence chambers. The grenade launcher is the one and only way to counter this trio and if you got a good lerk it wont work. Spikes do 18 damage it is unlisted but true. that means a good lerk will kill the gren happy marine within seconds. what HA you say?!?!?! well there is a little know and understood ability called leap. when used correctly you can kill an ha marine with full upgrades in 1.5 seconds(find leap guide somwere else). The reason leap and sensory work so well together is that you can sit and cloak at places were the HA marines usualy camp and shoot around corners. This is were you set up your one hit kill(well actualy it takes 2 leaps but still). Wait for the HA marine to stop moving, like reloading or somthing, Then leap down on top of him looking striaght down on his head(then .5 seconds after the first leap do another one)this should kill him and he'll say "WTH!?!?!? OMG HACKS".
sensory first is not weak its just misunderstood. I would like alot of servers to enforce sensory first only on their servers, atleast for a little while, so that these stratiges can be perfected.
Yes it works
Yes it's a hellova lot of fun
Yes I have tried it
Yes we had a fairly decent team (Roob's server with some of the regulars in there)
Yes it does take more than your average run, jump, and bite his head off tactic
BUT IT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH MORE FUN
if you take sensory first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's so, so, so sweet
Cheers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This thread should have ended a long long time ago...
But I can't resiste to jump in.
For whoever said a marine can kill a skulk even if one is ambushed...
Don't tell us you haven't seen 2 or even 3 marines getting wasted by a single skulk.
Play nice, as 1.1 is coming soon.
BTW, is AK the best gun in CS? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->