Securing

X_Stickman · April 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Oc's the way to go?</div> When i first started playing NS (was on the first night it came out), i messed up big time, got shouted at by the comm and quited. But that's besides the point. I was finally tempted to go back into the game about a week, week and half after it came out, and i joined aliens for the first time. because of the autohelp thing saying to try evolving, i went gorg (no one else was gorg, and i remembered to change my name so i wasn't NSPlayer) and no one cared really. I knew roughly what i was doing, so i went out and capped a res point. BUT! after i capped it, instead of moving on and getting another one, i stayed behind and waited for res, then put some OC's up around it, and some defence chambers etc. again, no one complained, and we won the game anyway. But recently, ive noticed that gorgs that build OC's before they get the second hive up get shouted at a lot, even when there are marines attacking the hive and OC's are NEEDED. I used my old tactic, got shouted at a lot, but we still won the game.

Anyone else do this? I dont think i've ever lost a game using this tactic, but ive had to stop doing it because of some heavy handed admins coming down hard on the "N00b" gorg (me)

Vahn_Paktu · April 2003

You don't need to put oc and stuff around rts. Rts can take alot of dmg and your skulks should be able to kill the Marines. If you have excess res build a dc near a damaged rt. If the Marines are in your hive you should put up a couple in your hive

sH-Kibner · April 2003

What I like to do when I am gorge is cap one res then build 3 of whatever chamber my team wants. Then, I go and cap another res. If my team is doing well, I will get one more rt up and save for hive. If they are having trouble keeping our main hive and the one I am about to build secure, I start building an oc at each entrance to the hives. To protect the rts, you can jump on top of one and build an oc there. The base of the oc is hidden by part of the rt so it can make it harder for the marines to attack and destroy the oc there. Unless an rt is at a strategic point (south loop for ex.) you don not need more than one or two oc to protect it. Try to get 3 of an upgrade chamber before you build any oc, though. 3 of any upgrade helps the team much more than 3 oc.

Sycophant · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Apr 19 2003, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> But recently, ive noticed that gorgs that build OC's before they get the second hive up get shouted at a lot, even when there are marines attacking the hive and OC's are NEEDED.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
As far as I'm concerned, the people doing the yelling want you to get the second hive up ASAP.

Really, it's a reasonable request - Fades are available, Lerks get Umbra, you (Gorge) get web, and Skulks can now Leap. These help counter the JP/HA marines, and keep you alive longer against the spray from numerous HMG's.

Well, that's how it is in the grand scheme of things. The more likely sad truth is that the ones doing the shouting really suck as Skulk, and they want their Fade.

Deacon · April 2003

You see the same thing on a marine side. Back in November, people were building WOLs and turret farms like mad.

Now aliens rush for the second hive, and marines rush for jp/hmg. It's a general shift from being reliant on structures to being reliant on player skills.

Personally, I think this is because people are learning the maps. When everyone knows their way around, it's easy to get everyone together to apply pressure to a given map location. Which means you now have a moving front. A 58-point fade (cara/adren) can move to wherever the current flashpoint is. A 56-point WOL (3 OCs, 1 DC) is stuck in one place.

X_Stickman · April 2003

I've always tried to work by the strategy of making one place secure (so it cant be taken) then moving on to the second place. One major criticism i get is building OC's BEFORE i put the RT up, but the way i see it, it's better to waste 14 res and about 3 minutes putting up one OC than it is to waste 22 res putting an RT up, getting killed half way through putting it up, then losing the RT altogether. you CAN ask for a skulk to come and guard you (if you know that marines are likely to be there) but they wont unless u know them well

Noble_Fade · April 2003

There's nothing wrong with a gorge putting 1 o chamber next to a res he's building. One tower can provide a lot of protection, especially when your skulk team is sucking particularily hard.
And yeah, back in the day, this game was a lot more fun, you could try any approach you wanted in games. Now it's just all cheap ****, marines rushing to jp's, laying mine blankets under the hive, and other such ****.

Obliterater · April 2003

One OC can absorb about 1 clip of LMG ammo, and has trouble hitting marines that are standing still. Multiple OC's and a DC for healing can hold back maby two marines, but costs far to much to used to guard res towers.

Defending the hive, or a critical choke point with a couple of OC's is a good idea, but placing them next to every resorce point will slow down res alot, and not do much in the way of defending it.

SecretFire · April 2003

Early in the game, there is just no way that putting up more then 1 offence tower is cost effective...you will be slowing stuff down to a crawl if you buil a nice WOL at each res node. Sometimes, midway through the game, I'll put up a single OC to stop any solo knifers, but that's it. It's far too easy to kill a WOL with an hmg or with an lmg and some ammo.

Calantus · April 2003

I see early OCs anywhere but in the hive as a waste of resources. There are exceptions of course, but most of the time you shouldn't be placing OCs anywhere but in hives. As for early OCs in the hives, it depends on the pressure. If the marines aren't a problem then I feel that skulks can do the job and I can just concentrate on going for that 2nd hive. About half the time I'll put 3 OCs in the hive to fend off any spawn campers and help take down JPers. I never get yelled at (except for as a joke, or by peeps new to the servers) on the servers I play at when I gorge 'cause I gorge alot these days and they know I'm good.

The biggest problem people have with gorges doing something "wrong" is not the action itself, but that it indicates that the gorge doesn't know what they are doing. If a good gorge does something different it's not such a big deal because you know that they know what they are doing and have a reason beyond ignorance for doing what they do. One time we had a gorge who didn't build ANY DCs and instead OC'd the place up. Luckily we knew the gorge so we didn't blast him, we still asked why, but he said trust me so we did. In the end the marines were penned up with us safely suiciding on their stuff and he just leisurely RTd the whole map, popped DCs then got us the 2 hives almost simultaneously. The marines got JPs eventually, but they got owned by OCs, skulks and 2 lerks.

It was a win and a fun one, but that doesn't mean I wont yell at an unknown gorge for building OCs everywhere in the future. It's about trust in the gorge's abilities and if you do anything apart from the norm, then my trust has gone out the window. My advice? Do the norm for a while on the server(s) that you play to gain trust, <i>then</i> start to deviate. Hopefully then the regulars will back you up nomatter what you do. Hopefully.

Arcadius · April 2003

I have to agree with Calantus. If the people on the server know the gorge is good, he can get away with doing all kinds of "abnormal" things. One particular gorge on the server I play on, isn't a big fan of the usual DMS build order. He often goes DSM or even MDS. Since we know for sure he knows what he's doing rarely anyone complains, but if someone new to the server did that people would likely be upset. It all depends on whether or not the other people on the team trust you.

Umbraed_Monkey · April 2003

ya i remember doing that back in the day too. Back then, multi-gorge was NOT considered (or known) not to be viable, and by mid game, 3-4 gorges were common, and you can trip on an offense chamber on every corner. Hehe, doing that now will get you flamed back to <insert random country>. *sigh* another reason why 1.1 is so hard to wait for..

AIRinc_FaReZ · April 2003

Stickman, play a few more games (by few i mean around 20) at youll eventually grow a long white beard and wise eyes and understand why people shouted at you. Hell, youll probably start whacking people with your walking stick too. I rmb in the first game i played it was bast, we (aliens) started in Ref, and marines were spawning there (for no reason). It was too dark to see anything (dint up my gamma), and i was running around holding down the bite button. It was fun though...

Error404 · April 2003

I personally think it's wrong to build any OCs before DC's, and I think most people do too, if they're shouting at you for any reason, it's probably because you're putting up an OC before even the first DC has been dropped. A DC will benefit the team more than an isolate OC which will be shot down in the early game.

On the issue of <b>securing</b>, I've noticed that after reclaiming a hive from marines, many gorges will just drop a spread of OCs around it rather than begin saving up for a hive. This is usually to counter the marines counter-reclaiming the hive, which usually happens immediately after a successful Kharaa take-back of a hive space.

Most reclaimed hives are lost, when the gorge decides to save up immediately for the hive. It's often better to infest it with OCs before saving up, thus stalling any attempt to take it back again. Saving lots of time and heartache, taking the pressure of defending away from your team so they can continually assault the marines.

exoity · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I personally think it's wrong to build any OCs before DC's</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It is, even your getting mega rushed and your gorge you should.

1. First build another resource tower.
2. Build 3 dcs
3. build another rt
4. securce another hive with ocs.

sej · April 2003

The thing is OCs are not very effective in killing marines - unlessin large numbers....

In 1.04 you need resources quickly - i suggest you dont build any ocs before the 2nd hive or at least before defence chambers.........

Skulks are there for killing rines rather than offence chambers.

BarxBaron · April 2003

personally I think security comes before rushing a hive......whats the damn point when you leave it open to attack and the marines rush it......drop a damn armory....then mine spam etc and eventually rape it

BEFORE marines get JPs OCs can be annoying especially if placed in smart places around the hive so marines can't leiseurly shoot the hive.......I almost drop 1 OC before I start getting that hive up.......its just that 1 more wasted clip before the marine shoots the hive and is worth waiting for 14 more res IMO

in hives such as noname and port engine 1 OC can be very evil if used by a decent gorge who is heal spamming as well

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One OC can absorb about 1 clip of LMG ammo, and has trouble hitting marines that are standing still. Multiple OC's and a DC for healing can hold back maby two marines, but costs far to much to used to guard res towers.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

lol.......yeah guarding RTs with OCs is a waste....but not at a hive.....and at lvl0 it takes a little more then 1 full LMG clip (when dealing with upg rushing marines instead of MT rushers you may be outta luck tho) and besides they shouldn't even be concentrating on putting a full clip in it because you should have a skulk there helping anyways........1 oc + at least 1 skulk frees the entire rest of the team up to do whatever they want if the skulk is half decent

oh and I forgot to mention that even thinking of rushign a 2nd hive before at least 2 DC is kinda retarded so I am just figuring that the gorge already has 2DC somewhere before putting that OC up

X_Stickman · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BarxBaron @ Apr 21 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> personally I think security comes before rushing a hive......whats the damn point when you leave it open to attack and the marines rush it......drop a damn armory....then mine spam etc and eventually rape it

 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Exactly, there's no point in starting to put up a hive, only to get killed by some git marine that sneaked round the back and put a PG up outside. Ok, so 2-3 OC's aint gonna stop marines for long, but they usualy try to kill them before moving in, so it gives you time to get skulks there to help, and to put up more OC/DCs if nessecary

Church · April 2003

Random OC placements + lerks = good chance JP/HMG fails.

DCs before OCs.

Sometimes DC before RTs.

Hive comes last always.

And I'm sure it takes 2-3 clips of LMGclips unupgraded to kill an OC (because depending on distance and other things, some of the bullets won't hit the OC)

Obliterater · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And I'm sure it takes 2-3 clips of LMGclips unupgraded to kill an OC (because depending on distance and other things, some of the bullets won't hit the OC) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I find that if you circle strafe you can usualy be near enough that every single bullet will hit it, and you will often not get hit back at all. Besides once the LMG clip is gone they whip out the pistol and finish it with 200 perfect accuracy pistol damage.

Putting OC's up at a under construction hive, however, work excelently. Two OC's and a gorge can easily kill a marine, sometimes two. Also if the hive is going up then res are not a problem any more.

p4Samwise · April 2003

You have to adapt to the circumstances. If your skulks are keeping the marines penned in their base, and no high tech stuff is on the horizon, plant nothing but res and get the hives. If your skulks are barely holding the marines at bay, or you're trying to break a 2-hive lockdown, get upgrades ASAP, and then go cap res so you can put the hive up as soon as the opportunity presents itself. If the marines are tech rushing, pepper the base with offenses, and do the same to your second hive location before the hive itself starts up.

No one tactic is suitable every time.

Deacon · April 2003

If you absolutely must place a chamber next to an RT, place a DC. It adds to the survivability of the RT, adds an early point of carapace, and can be used as a healing station for skulks away from the hive.

AIRinc_FaReZ · April 2003

Hmmm i dont think so. All the more incentive for a lone rambo to start a-slashing. DCs take about 1 clip of LMG and pistol to kill, and in the early game, you really cant afford that lost 14 res.

leek · April 2003

i shout back twice as loud at any skulk who shouts at me when i build an OC in our future 2nd hive....

this usually happens when im in a hive alone and i have marines inc on me.

its best to have a little security rather than be knifed to death as a gorge with > 50 res

ZERG · April 2003

OC are for slowing dangit! SLOWING!!! Not killing. Got it? What do you prefer? 2 marines taking out one of your res (one standing guard and the other slashing) or them having to deal with the OC first thus giving your skulks a chance to save it.

The amount of OCs depends on how hot it is or will be. If the marines only travel in singles or pairs, a single OC will do fine. Cargo storage near fusion is often hot since the large space gives marines an advantage. I see too many times I tell the gorge to build at least 2 OCs in there and the marines march in unnoticed and unhindered. So you want to save for your precious hive? Like I said before, better one hive than NO hive.

It really depends on the circumstances, but I find it funny people yelling at me for even placing one OC to protect myself while I build at a hive and have marines constantly coming over for dinner. I tell them SUYF.

Sgt_Astro · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Apr 21 2003, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You have to adapt to the circumstances. If your skulks are keeping the marines penned in their base, and no high tech stuff is on the horizon, plant nothing but res and get the hives. If your skulks are barely holding the marines at bay, or you're trying to break a 2-hive lockdown, get upgrades ASAP, and then go cap res so you can put the hive up as soon as the opportunity presents itself. If the marines are tech rushing, pepper the base with offenses, and do the same to your second hive location before the hive itself starts up.

No one tactic is suitable every time.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I couldn't agree more. When and where you build OC's depends on both what the marines are doing and the skill of your team. You get 5/5 skulks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

This morning I was on a voogru server and a whole clan and I were the aleins, leaving all the noobs 2 go marines. We gave all our rez 2 the gorg and continued 2 pin the marines in their base (ns_nothing). We got the 2nd hive 6 minutes into the game! But rez was very slow so we didn't get fades any faster. But we did kill alot of JPers trying 2 leave their base with webs and leap. I don't think our gorg built any OC's until we had 3 hives. At which point we all went gorg and babbler rushed them 2 death.

However, if you can't leave ur hive without getting redeamed by a marines camping the exits....... Well in that case it doesn't matter what u do because u lose any way.

It takes more than 1 LMG clip 2 kill an OC. If you don't have any gun upgrades it can take as much as 3 LMG clips 2 kill one. Maybe this is just me, but u can't really hit an OC every single time. Chances are your at least 3 metres away from it and your firing on full auto. In the later game with Gun 3 one LMG clip ALMOST kills an OC, but you still need 2 finish it off with ur pistol.

BreakfastSausages · April 2003

when I have my way I like to build like this:

step 1) the res node closest to our home hive
step 2) the res node at my second hive
step 3) 3 dts + 1 ot at my second hive
step 4) if there are other safe nodes cap some
step 5) second hive

if the skulks have been doing well I will not build much untill the second hive is done, so we can get fades the second the hive is complete. if there is a good chance of jetpacks then I will spread some ots around the hive rooms, and spread ots in the approaches to the hives.

AIRinc_FaReZ · April 2003

I h8 mother interface. Its such a ***** to crack after theyve got it. That stupid long corridor screams for some pistol luvin'.

Securing

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