Electrified Tf

Wheeee · April 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">surmised from screenshots</div> So now we know that the ETF has a range and has a wicked looking visual. What I'd like to get is opinions from people about the concept of the ETF *edit* <b> as it relates towards theoretical gameplay </b> i.e. in terms of static defense. *edit*

My opinion is that the ETF shouldn't be just another "turret" that auto-hits anything around it - that's the job of the turrets themselves. It's strange to think that 2 or 3 ETF's could defend themselves better than an equivalent turret farm without any electrical upgrades. So what I was thinking is that instead of being an "active" static defense,, the ETF should be a "supportive/passive" type static defense (whatever that means, lol). Basically what I am saying is that the ETF should be helping the turrets do their job better, instead doing the turrets job for itself.

P.S. The reason I didn't post this in S&I was because I'd rather have a discussion about the concept of the ETF, not actual changes to it. I wanted originally to suggest that the ETF would instead have a stunning effect on aliens, but I figured that right now it's too early to comment on implementation and would much rather see the ETF in action before suggesting something definite.

*edit* <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> read the post and please stop hijacking the topic! </span>*edit*

Young_Trotsky · April 2003

Obviously I don't know for sure seeing as i havent played 1.1 but the ETF sounds very over-powered to me, Flayra commented that it would be like an extra turret and that it would be possible to defend an area with just a TF and no turrets. I think this is a poor move seing as atm you need to place turrets to defend your tf, without having to do this it makes it seemingly impossible fro aliens to take down fortified areas. Jut my opinion.

DoADrunkMonkey · April 2003

agree.

it seems totally ridiculous, the prime way to kill any type of building or marine is stright up face to face, the marines could storm right into anything.
even with fades doing acid it takes bloddy ages! and anyway, the tf itself are zapping anything even thinking about useing their primary attack (god forbid!) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

Wheeee · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Young Trotsky @ Apr 14 2003, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Obviously I don't know for sure seeing as i havent played 1.1 but the ETF sounds very over-powered to me, Flayra commented that it would be like an extra turret and that it would be possible to defend an area with just a TF and no turrets. I think this is a poor move seing as atm you need to place turrets to defend your tf, without having to do this it makes it seemingly impossible fro aliens to take down fortified areas. Jut my opinion.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I'm pretty sure they'll be able to balance the ETF as it is currently...my question is "Is this a good approach?"

Zel · April 2003

i think once you place your tf you will have two optional upgrades, for siege andor for elec, then the elec will work like a fast and very short range turret, hurting enemies that pass very close (bite/claw range)

maybe, for the sake of simplifying code, the elec upgrade will be part of the siege upgrade. in any event it will surely not be a universal research that applies to all TF's, that would be too good and really make people build TF walls...

i think it will cost a lot to make the tf only vulnerable to masses of skulks or lerrk/fade. helping you defend areas late game but not to use used immediately. too expensive for a single-hive invulnerability.

BadKarma · April 2003

I still hold the opinion that the elec. TF dosnt need any graphic at all. Just be a nice surprise for a skulk. And yes, i dont think they should have any range.

Berger · April 2003

The only thing this will have an effect on is a single skulk who sneaks by marine positions and gets to a turret factory. He won't be able to single-handedly deactivate all the marine defenses. It doesn't sound like the ETF will have much effect on an organized assault.

Huntsman · April 2003

It seems that while an electric TF might be too good in 1.04. In 1.1 perhaps all you'll have to do is stick up a couple move chambers near an opening and have a couple fades with adrenaline coat that thing with acid. Or it might not do all that much damage. I believe at least initially it could only attack two targets, so perhaps it's viable to attack with multiple skulks in a weak point (just not without impunity). Whatever the counter-tactic is, I'm sure it will be balanced in price and abilities by the time the team is done with it.

Little_Hunter · April 2003

I don't think the tf will beable to defend an area, like the turrets, i think it will only beable to defend itself in melee. As for calling the etf "overpowered" with out having even played it in game, seems a little pre emptive. One thing a lot of us (my self included at times) is that the ns team are not idiots. They play ns just like the res of us, and they want it to be ballanced too. I just gessing that the etf was made to ballence the fact that offence chambers don't have any kind of weak point like the tf. When building defences the aliens just have to get a gorge to drop the towers. For marines that com has to buy an expensive building that doesn't do anything itself. The elf is just an attempt to ballence the fact that to get 1 turret for the marines costs 44 res, while its only 14 res for the aliens.

Chupacabra · April 2003

I thought the ETF would only damage enemies actually touching the TF, rather that it being a ranged attack.

Necro · April 2003

if there's no turrets...they can just go around it ;p

Ahnteis · April 2003

I think it's just so you can't have a completely blindspot anywhere around the TF. If you remember in earlier versions, you didn't even NEED the TF once the turrets were built (removing not only any potential blind spots but also the single point of failure). This just means that commanders won't have to learn to place turrets in just the right spot so that skulks can't get behind them (which was probably never the intention).

I doubt this is going to be too much of a balance change at all.

Wheeee · April 2003

AFAIK the blind spot was either because the skulks/fades could circle-strafe the tf while taking minimal damage, or lodge behind a small hole between the tf and the wall. That's not the issue: The issue is whether the ETF should directly help the turrets kill aliens, by doing damage, or do so indirectly.

Ahnteis · April 2003

Doesn't much matter what you think it SHOULD do, it's going to be electrified and fry aliens if they're near it too long. As for tactical/strategic changes, that would be the part about removing blind spots. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Anavrin · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Apr 14 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> My opinion is that the ETF shouldn't be just another "turret" that auto-hits anything around it - that's the job of the turrets themselves. It's strange to think that 2 or 3 ETF's could defend themselves better than an equivalent turret farm without any electrical upgrades. So what I was thinking is that instead of being an "active" static defense,, the ETF should be a "supportive/passive" type static defense (whatever that means, lol).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You're forgetting that aliens will be able to use fades and onos at hive 1. Chances are, an onos won't be terribly afraid of a low damage TF no more than an onos is afraid of a lone turret.

Typhon · April 2003

I think that as long as the ETF can only zap 1 or 2 skulks at a time, and it does low enough damage that it kills skulks easily but is only a nuisance to fades/onos, then it will be ok.

I dont think the devs ever intended 1 skulk to be able to take out an entire farm by himself, which isn't that hard in 1.04. This way it will either require a semi-organized assault of 3-4 skulks, or getting a lerk quick to spike it down, or getting fades/onos which would find the damage to be annoying but not lethal.

I think its a very nice solution to the problem with marine defense.

Wheeee · April 2003

bleh, this isn't a balance thread people...this is about the role of the ETF in defense.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 14 2003, 10:00 PM)
My opinion is that the ETF shouldn't be just another "turret" that auto-hits anything around it - that's the job of the turrets themselves. It's strange to think that 2 or 3 ETF's could defend themselves better than an equivalent turret farm without any electrical upgrades. So what I was thinking is that instead of being an "active" static defense,, the ETF should be a "supportive/passive" type static defense (whatever that means, lol).

You're forgetting that aliens will be able to use fades and onos at hive 1. Chances are, an onos won't be terribly afraid of a low damage TF no more than an onos is afraid of a lone turret.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

they'd probably be afraid to get stuck/slowed down in front of a turret farm.

Umbraed_Monkey · April 2003

i dont think the etf is LONG ranged. Yes, in the screenshot we saw it zap an onos, but that onos was like a feet away. I imagine that the etf only zaps aliens that are THAT close to it, any further will require the turrets themselves to shoot at it. I hope this is what you meant as 'passive' defense.

SilentSam · April 2003

I really love the idea of being able to put down an unattended TF and have some confidence that it will actually guard a rez node (something you simply cannot do right now - a tf without an adjacent phase gate is basically marked for death). The fact that you need to deterr marines to completement a tf is an even bigger cost then the rez cost of actually spending resources on defending a single reznode (lets face it, as marines you very rarely use rez nodes that aren't incidentally part of an assault base).

With this however it should really open up gameplay. I mean I'm willing to bet that most commanders forget about the existence of some of the more out of the way rez nodes in a lot of maps.

The cost of the upgrade however is critical. Really, a TF for a single rez node is an investment <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> Prevoisuly you needed at least 4 turrets for a half decent setup that will stand its ground against small to medium skulks attack well. Cost = 25 + 4*19 = 101 yikes! More often then not the rez node will be destoryed before it makes that sort of money. Crappy ROI.

If however the same 4 turret setup + zzzzaping machine can stand its ground without marine support against anything short of some VERY determined and organised skulks then the rt should be hanging around for enought ime to make it a worthwhile investments.

Eidolan · April 2003

Well if the ETF has a "long" ranged attack it would make little sence as you can't "aim" the bolt. It would make more sence to just have a little sentery sitting on top of it that chould aim up or down all the way. Now if it was just a touch attack then it would make sence. As for being fair or not? I think its very fair its not right to have a 200 res sentery wall taken out by a skulk that costs at most 6 res! And i'm sorry i'v never seen a skulk proff sentery wall.

sej · April 2003

Well tfarms need to be powered up in some way and i think this is a good comprimise -

A 2 res skulk shouldnt be able to take out a 19 res turret imo.

Suppose this will change thenature of turret farms too - no real protection behind tfac needed.

Ulatoh · April 2003

wait...youve played the new 1.1 version, right?

no?

then why does this topic exist... you have no idea what its like

Zel · April 2003

why does everyone seem to have speculation? whats wrong with us thinking out loud? its fun to do and we are odviously all imagining the possibilities! someone pelase tell me what is so inherently evil with speculation!

Kenichi · April 2003

I will lay this out for you. Speculations are what causes rumors. As we all know rumors are evil. Also, speculation is the culmination of assumptions. Assumptions are the guesses of the uninformed who can do nothing more than make stuff up to make themselves feel happy about something. The fact is your wasting your time. We don't enjoy sitting around here reading the forums and then have to read through your speculations. If you want to speculate leave it to yourself. Everything you know about NS 1.1 is changing. You don't even have the information required to make plausible speculations. At this point, any speculations you make only serve to be wrong in every possible way.

That is why speculation is bad.

abtm · April 2003

At this, the earliest stage of testing for NS 1.1 -- it is HIGHLY detromental to speculate regarding the release. Please, constrain your posts to thoughts of legitimacy and things that are actually confirmed. Rumours are bad, scary and make baby jesus cry.

Forlorn · April 2003

Electrified TF's and RT's(if they exist) will be skulk killars. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, they will only be good for a SMALL defensive boost; it won't stop larger aliens well at all.

However, think of some good things:

Say you have a really packed base full of structures, place an ETF in it, and when that skulk who runs around the stuctures biting everything unchecked and is hard as hell to hit(esp. with my 56K <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> ) and previously would be nearly invinicble to turret fire, will now die to electrical bolts that do not miss. No more spawn camping skulks in mid game or skulks that play hide in seek in your own base.(Which is absurd, you base is supposed to be you home, not a playground for skulks.)

Also, here's my guess on how the ETF will work:

Will cost 20 to reasearch, and will deal 20 every 2 seconds to a close by enemy.

ZLaZ · April 2003

Ummm, aren't Sentry turrets purpose to HELP marines hold a position. They weren't meant to defend something alone, but to bolster defenses. But they have various other uses.
a) put a little aways from a base, say around a corner to a long hallway, alerting marines of an incoming enemy.
b) put around important buildings to keep the enemy away/running.
c) Scaring the enemy from attacking.
But commanders simply lay down dozens of them and have the marines run off to make another somewhere else.
I think electrified TF is a nice idea, if done correctly. If a PT could simply say whether they like it, or if it helps strategy. I don't think the agreement does it?

J2pc · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 16 2003, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Say you have a really packed base full of structures, place an ETF in it, and when that skulk who runs around the stuctures biting everything unchecked and is hard as hell to hit(esp. with my 56K <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> ) and previously would be nearly invinicble to turret fire, will now die to electrical bolts that do not miss. No more spawn camping skulks in mid game or skulks that play hide in seek in your own base.(Which is absurd, you base is supposed to be you home, not a playground for skulks.)  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
aw aw aw,

I hope aliens have something to keep marines from spawncamping too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Wheeee · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ Apr 15 2003, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I will lay this out for you. Speculations are what causes rumors. As we all know rumors are evil. Also, speculation is the culmination of assumptions. Assumptions are the guesses of the uninformed who can do nothing more than make stuff up to make themselves feel happy about something. The fact is your wasting your time. We don't enjoy sitting around here reading the forums and then have to read through your speculations. If you want to speculate leave it to yourself. Everything you know about NS 1.1 is changing. You don't even have the information required to make plausible speculations. At this point, any speculations you make only serve to be wrong in every possible way.

That is why speculation is bad.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
who is this directed at?

Wheeee · April 2003

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Stop hijacking the freaking thread! THIS ISN'T A BALANCE SPECULATION THREAD!!!</span>

Khaim · April 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chupacabra @ Apr 14 2003, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I thought the ETF would only damage enemies actually touching the TF, rather that it being a ranged attack.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Wellll... technicaly only the PTs and devs know atm, all the normal forumers know is what they've seen... just remember people: dont count your chickens before they hatch. (or something like this but more ns related <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> )

Electrified Tf

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