Let's keep this on topic, and drop the personal attacks. Bickering about spelling also doesn't contribute to the debate.
Cheaters, understand this. "Exploit" and "skill" are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to believe. Just because it takes practice to bunnyhop well does not make it any less of an exploit. It doesn't matter if an exploit requires timed keypresses in conjunction with mouse movement, or if you just bind a special console command to a key and smack it every now and then. It's still an exploit, whether it takes skill to perform or not.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit. I have never seen a solid argument saying it wasn't. Remember the good ol' days when a veteran bunnyhopper could truck across the map at over 10x normal speed? Everyone accepts that the designers didn't intend for that to be possible. Someone discovered a way to abuse the physics engine. Exploiting that flaw in the physicis model became too common, and a correct fix was quite difficult, so the designers had to band-aid the problem; A crude hack to keep the problem from getting completely out of hand. Just because you can't achieve insane speeds anymore, doesn't mean that the speed boost you still get isn't achieved unfairly.
Just because everyone has the ability to b-hop available to them, doesn't make it not an exploit. Everyone also has the ability to use OGC. Do you expect everyone to use OGC so that they can compete with those who already do? Further, everyone has the ability to turn off muzzle-flash and skulk-teeth, but that's not kosher either. They're part of the game design, and when you circumvent that design, you are exploiting. Cheating if you will, as the end result of either definition in the game world is the same: you illicitly obtain an advantage over other players.
That works so well, I'm going to repeat it: Illicitly obtaining an advantage over other players is cheating. That sums up bunnyhopping, OGC, muzzle-flash, and skulk-teeth quite well.
Let's stop the flaming people. Now, let's do something called 'logical thinking.' In 'logical thinking' we try to think slowly and take ideas understandingly. Here are a few simple facts. Fact #1 - Bunny Hopping is a skill. Sure it is an exploit too, but that does not make it non-skilled. Fact #2 - Bunny Hopping is an exploit. This is plain and simple. It's a bug. A flaw. Sure it was coded in, but do you really think it was intentional? Fact #3 - Not everyone knows how to do this. Some people don't care, and some don't wanna know. Fact #4 - Since you are probably the only one who knows how to do it, you are cheating. You have an unfair advantage. If you join a server, proceed to tell everyone how to do it, then bunny hop, then it is fair. Everyone has an equal chance of going the speeds that you can attain. Otherwise it is not fair. Fact #5 - Arguing over the morality of bunny hopping in NS is useless and stupid. Bunny hopping will be taken out in 1.1. Period. No whining about it or claiming it is a skill. It is not your decision Put all thse facts together and you have a stupid and useless topic that has turned into a flame war and deserves to fall to the bottom of the page and into oblivion.
Quote from your post: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, your "quote" of me was actually quoting K'Ragg who thought he was paraphrasing what I said. Might want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills if english is your first language. Allow me to "quote" his post, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quote from my post: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The post about the interpreted statement just about sums it up nicely:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keyword: interpreted
I don't like to flame...but do you even read the posts of others before you start criticizing their comprehension skills? Try reading things again. Why do all your posts seem to involve making fun of someone’s English skills? Is this necessary? I hardly believe that it is.
I see that your view will not change, and neither will mine. You believe exploiting is not cheating, but a fair advantage. I believe exploiting is cheating, and avoid using any exploits deliberately. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, I think the crouching hitbox bug is far worse than "bunnyhopping" since it only gives an advantage to one team and requires 0 skill to execute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this an “exploit”? Yes…then it goes with the rest of them. Fair players will not intentionally use it to give an unfair advantage.
With everything in life you can cheat. It all boils down to where you draw that line for your own personal morals.
So I guess this puts us back to where we all started this thread: -Cheaters will continue to cheat. Some will even consider cheating to be a “skill”. -Honest people will continue to play fair, the way the game was intended.
I will respect your views though I feel strongly against them. And you already expressed that you will respect other players point of views, though you feel they are on a lower playing field.
Well I think this thread is over(actually, I admit it was probably over well before I posted). It has just turned into a debate of whether or not exploiting is cheating and whether the mass players should consider it fair or unfair.
Roscoe…no hard feelings. We just both strongly believe in completely opposite point of views. I see from the posts that we will never change our point of views.
<!--QuoteBegin--th@ annoying kid+Apr 13 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (th@ annoying kid @ Apr 13 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm going to bump to show my vote to have this waste of bandwith locked and cast into oblivion
*bump*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree...though I feel bad for adding to the problem...sorry <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--the n00bs in this thread that can't strafe jump/"bunny hop"+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the n00bs in this thread that can't strafe jump/"bunny hop")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there there, its ok. ill tell your mom to give you a shoulder to cry on when im done with her.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi I'm new to half-life. I don't like being challenged to become a better player. Instead of acquiring the skills to be competitive I would rather come to the forums and whine from my highchair. Watch me cry!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See how that works both ways? Isn't this fun? Now you try K'Ragg...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, good old <a href='http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm' target='_blank'>ad hominem</a>. The most overused fallacy of them all. Why bother responding to arguments when you can just go straight for the person. Well, I gather I should dispell the attack then.
I picked up my copy of Half-life a couple of months after release and some months later I started playing Team Fortress Classic competitively. When Counter-strike Beta 3 came out, I started toying with it, and by Beta 5, most of my clanmates were playing it a lot more than TFC, so we decided to give it a go. Finally, when Beta 6.6 and Half-life 1.1.0.0 came out, I moved on to newer games, the new CS crowd and the unlag code just didn't make it worth the time.
Last year, I heard about this new, awesome Half-life mod that in some ways resembled the ingenuity of Starcraft because you had two completely different sides fighting. I gave it a try and found it very enjoyable. This was shortly after the first server patch, 1.01, I believe.
Regarding being afraid of a challenge... Well, let's take the matter at hand. After I heard about it, I was curious, so I looked around and I found an explanation on how it worked. I started a LAN game, I tried it and concluded this was indeed an unfair advantage and was not meant to be part of the game. That was the first and last time I bunnyhopped. I refuse to stoop to the level of a cheater just to have an even playing field.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guess what Boris...every time you play marine and crouch you are abusing a bug, an "exploit" if you will. In fact, I think the crouching hitbox bug is far worse than "bunnyhopping" since it only gives an advantage to one team and requires 0 skill to execute. However I realize that this is simply part of the half life engine, and very little if anything can be done about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect. While there <b>is</b> a bug relating to hitboxes and crouching, you are not abusing the bug merely by crouching. Per definition, abusing something requires you to take advantage of something unfairly, and crouching to get into a went, for example, is not an attempt to abuse the hitbox bug.
Further, the fact that it is hard or impossible to fix does <b>not</b> mean you should or must take advantage of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree, it is embarassing to sit and read dribble like I have seen this thread. You still haven't proven to me that it is cheating, so your weak legged argument doesn't stand, period. Like I said before...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Allow me, then. First I give you <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/news.html' target='_blank'>Natural Selection News</a>.
Thus it is established that it is indeed a bug, or an exploit if you will, and that the game designers does not think this is sanctioned within the rules of the NS universe.
Next, we need a definition for cheater. <a href='http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cheat' target='_blank'>Merriam-Webster's Dictionary</a> Should do nicely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>intransitive senses</i> <b>1 a</b> : to practice fraud or trickery <b>b</b> : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1b is a relevant definition (You may read the rest by following the link.) So a cheater would be someone who violates the rules dishonestly, or in other words, knowingly.
Using the above references, I can only conclude that bunnyhopping in NS is against the rules and that anyone who bunnyhops in a game of NS is violating the rules laid forth by the designers of the game. Bunnyhopping isn't something which you can do by accident, and thus it is a willfull act, leading you to that you are always cheating if you are bunnyhopping. I could further quote you saying that you know it's an exploit to support my conclusions, but I'm sure it is not neccesary.
Comments
Cheaters, understand this. "Exploit" and "skill" are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to believe. Just because it takes practice to bunnyhop well does not make it any less of an exploit. It doesn't matter if an exploit requires timed keypresses in conjunction with mouse movement, or if you just bind a special console command to a key and smack it every now and then. It's still an exploit, whether it takes skill to perform or not.
Bunnyhopping is an exploit. I have never seen a solid argument saying it wasn't. Remember the good ol' days when a veteran bunnyhopper could truck across the map at over 10x normal speed? Everyone accepts that the designers didn't intend for that to be possible. Someone discovered a way to abuse the physics engine. Exploiting that flaw in the physicis model became too common, and a correct fix was quite difficult, so the designers had to band-aid the problem; A crude hack to keep the problem from getting completely out of hand. Just because you can't achieve insane speeds anymore, doesn't mean that the speed boost you still get isn't achieved unfairly.
Just because everyone has the ability to b-hop available to them, doesn't make it not an exploit. Everyone also has the ability to use OGC. Do you expect everyone to use OGC so that they can compete with those who already do? Further, everyone has the ability to turn off muzzle-flash and skulk-teeth, but that's not kosher either. They're part of the game design, and when you circumvent that design, you are exploiting. Cheating if you will, as the end result of either definition in the game world is the same: you illicitly obtain an advantage over other players.
That works so well, I'm going to repeat it: Illicitly obtaining an advantage over other players is cheating. That sums up bunnyhopping, OGC, muzzle-flash, and skulk-teeth quite well.
Fact #1 - Bunny Hopping is a skill. Sure it is an exploit too, but that does not make it non-skilled.
Fact #2 - Bunny Hopping is an exploit. This is plain and simple. It's a bug. A flaw. Sure it was coded in, but do you really think it was intentional?
Fact #3 - Not everyone knows how to do this. Some people don't care, and some don't wanna know.
Fact #4 - Since you are probably the only one who knows how to do it, you are cheating. You have an unfair advantage. If you join a server, proceed to tell everyone how to do it, then bunny hop, then it is fair. Everyone has an equal chance of going the speeds that you can attain. Otherwise it is not fair.
Fact #5 - Arguing over the morality of bunny hopping in NS is useless and stupid. Bunny hopping will be taken out in 1.1. Period. No whining about it or claiming it is a skill. It is not your decision
Put all thse facts together and you have a stupid and useless topic that has turned into a flame war and deserves to fall to the bottom of the page and into oblivion.
*bump*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, your "quote" of me was actually quoting K'Ragg who thought he was paraphrasing what I said. Might want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills if english is your first language. Allow me to "quote" his post, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quote from my post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The post about the interpreted statement just about sums it up nicely:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keyword: interpreted
I don't like to flame...but do you even read the posts of others before you start criticizing their comprehension skills? Try reading things again. Why do all your posts seem to involve making fun of someone’s English skills? Is this necessary? I hardly believe that it is.
I see that your view will not change, and neither will mine. You believe exploiting is not cheating, but a fair advantage. I believe exploiting is cheating, and avoid using any exploits deliberately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, I think the crouching hitbox bug is far worse than "bunnyhopping" since it only gives an advantage to one team and requires 0 skill to execute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this an “exploit”? Yes…then it goes with the rest of them. Fair players will not intentionally use it to give an unfair advantage.
With everything in life you can cheat. It all boils down to where you draw that line for your own personal morals.
So I guess this puts us back to where we all started this thread:
-Cheaters will continue to cheat. Some will even consider cheating to be a “skill”.
-Honest people will continue to play fair, the way the game was intended.
I will respect your views though I feel strongly against them. And you already expressed that you will respect other players point of views, though you feel they are on a lower playing field.
Well I think this thread is over(actually, I admit it was probably over well before I posted). It has just turned into a debate of whether or not exploiting is cheating and whether the mass players should consider it fair or unfair.
Roscoe…no hard feelings. We just both strongly believe in completely opposite point of views. I see from the posts that we will never change our point of views.
Oh well, that’s life. Happy gaming…
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
*bump*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree...though I feel bad for adding to the problem...sorry <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there there, its ok. ill tell your mom to give you a shoulder to cry on when im done with her.
See how that works both ways? Isn't this fun? Now you try K'Ragg...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, good old <a href='http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm' target='_blank'>ad hominem</a>. The most overused fallacy of them all. Why bother responding to arguments when you can just go straight for the person. Well, I gather I should dispell the attack then.
I picked up my copy of Half-life a couple of months after release and some months later I started playing Team Fortress Classic competitively. When Counter-strike Beta 3 came out, I started toying with it, and by Beta 5, most of my clanmates were playing it a lot more than TFC, so we decided to give it a go. Finally, when Beta 6.6 and Half-life 1.1.0.0 came out, I moved on to newer games, the new CS crowd and the unlag code just didn't make it worth the time.
Last year, I heard about this new, awesome Half-life mod that in some ways resembled the ingenuity of Starcraft because you had two completely different sides fighting. I gave it a try and found it very enjoyable. This was shortly after the first server patch, 1.01, I believe.
Regarding being afraid of a challenge... Well, let's take the matter at hand. After I heard about it, I was curious, so I looked around and I found an explanation on how it worked. I started a LAN game, I tried it and concluded this was indeed an unfair advantage and was not meant to be part of the game. That was the first and last time I bunnyhopped. I refuse to stoop to the level of a cheater just to have an even playing field.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guess what Boris...every time you play marine and crouch you are abusing a bug, an "exploit" if you will. In fact, I think the crouching hitbox bug is far worse than "bunnyhopping" since it only gives an advantage to one team and requires 0 skill to execute. However I realize that this is simply part of the half life engine, and very little if anything can be done about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect. While there <b>is</b> a bug relating to hitboxes and crouching, you are not abusing the bug merely by crouching. Per definition, abusing something requires you to take advantage of something unfairly, and crouching to get into a went, for example, is not an attempt to abuse the hitbox bug.
Further, the fact that it is hard or impossible to fix does <b>not</b> mean you should or must take advantage of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree, it is embarassing to sit and read dribble like I have seen this thread. You still haven't proven to me that it is cheating, so your weak legged argument doesn't stand, period. Like I said before...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Allow me, then. First I give you <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/news.html' target='_blank'>Natural Selection News</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Bug fixes and exploit fixes (bunny-hopping, ex_ variables, r_draw variables, more)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus it is established that it is indeed a bug, or an exploit if you will, and that the game designers does not think this is sanctioned within the rules of the NS universe.
Next, we need a definition for cheater. <a href='http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cheat' target='_blank'>Merriam-Webster's Dictionary</a> Should do nicely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>intransitive senses</i>
<b>1 a</b> : to practice fraud or trickery <b>b</b> : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1b is a relevant definition (You may read the rest by following the link.) So a cheater would be someone who violates the rules dishonestly, or in other words, knowingly.
Using the above references, I can only conclude that bunnyhopping in NS is against the rules and that anyone who bunnyhops in a game of NS is violating the rules laid forth by the designers of the game. Bunnyhopping isn't something which you can do by accident, and thus it is a willfull act, leading you to that you are always cheating if you are bunnyhopping. I could further quote you saying that you know it's an exploit to support my conclusions, but I'm sure it is not neccesary.
Have a nice day.