Ns Evolution Faster And Harder

CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
edited March 2003 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">but at what cost?</div> "Quick you fool Ungorge yourself!"
I laughed when I heard this, not becasue I thougt it was stupid, but becasue its funny. The Online gaming Community has made its own language. Im not talking about "elite" sp34k Im talking about the simple things .
Its a cylcle of constant time mangment. Its efficientcy.
For example,
Way back when, you might have heard: "We dont need more than one gorge, gestate back!"
As NS and its "regulars" progressed
so did the language. things gotta go faster!
"We dont need 2 gorges gestate back!"
"We dont need 2 gorges, go back!"
to present day.
"ungorge now!"

The language of NS can greatly be compaired with the overall game in many people's opinions.
I remember playing NS in its first week. Besides me peeling my hands of the mouse due to the cronic addiction I had quickly developed for the game, (I still go through withdrawl when i can t play for a day) I noticed something different.
The rounds lasted FOREVER. Well forever in comparison to the other games at the time like CS and DoD.
Now unless I was on crack the whole time and I was hallucinating, if you were in a normal public server, a lot of those early rounds could possibly take a good hour or more for a team to win.
Now I sit back and compaire this time with today's NS.
People today especialy the marines are in a God like Uber Rush throught the whole game. It is not uncommon to see the fate of the round determined by the first 2 minuets in NS. Now I am talking about the public servers not the passworded regulars only servers here.

Remember that when any topic is described in these forums you have to compaire between the public servers and the private ones because the differences in player opinion will stagger you. I play in the public servers 90% of the time so thats where i get these ideas from. Dont get me wrong though. I am fully aware that this game is pretty well balanced. If this little thing called Teamwork used, the marines will win just as many times as the aliens. Teamwork seems to be lacking in the public servers (for the most part) so that explaines a part of it.

But anyways im going on here, back to the point. Regardless of whether you play in puplic or privet servers, I think many could agree that the some of the changes in NS have inconspicuously or unintentionaly changed the game pace. The game is getting more and more faced paced. If you make one wrong choice, if you place one wrong building at the wrong time, it can lost you dearly. No wonder the most popular team stratedgies are
A. Marine relocation at start
B. Tech rush
or in terms of the Kharaa
God forbid that gorge build a sensory chamber before a defense chamber.
Now not that these stratedgies are right or wrong (thats for other posts) but it seems that with this faster pace, people are severly narrowing down the playing options availible to them. In the old NS versions, it was not uncommon to see either team win by utilising wide a variety of stratedgies. Now in the majority of the servers out there, (the public ones, which then also make up the majority of the NS gaming community) we see a constant repitition of same game outcome after same game outcome, becasue everyone is using the same stratedgy after the same stratedy.Who ever conrtols 2 hives first is the winner in many public servers. Controling 2 hives in the origional NS ment your team could take a breather for a few mineuts.
What i want to know is that do you players out there think this is agood thing or a bad thing in terms of the games ambience and indivuality?


  • ThanatosThanatos Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13138Members
    This seem to happen to all RTS games sooner or later.

    Back when I played SC I could spend hours with friends to find a way to counter the "six zergling rush" as a protoss. Perfecting build startegys for hours and hours.

    And if you check the forums from say a 2 months back you find the same discussions going on here. People count resources and perfect build orders. And with it they lose flexibilty.
    One of the reasons I stopped playing SC was a match that made me open my eyes to what was happening.
    For once I didn´t rush or use a well thought out tactic. I played randomly just to see what worked and what didn´t. I was really looking for inspiration to make a new uber tactic but then I noticed something. My opponents plan didn´t work. Mostly because he had counted on me doing something just as uber as he was doing. This had him stunned. So what does he do?? Change his tactic? Adapt to the new situation? Nope. For a full half hour he probes my defences until he finds a spot where his plan will work. He could have taken me out in a hundred diffrent ways alot quicker but was so locked in his thinking that it probably never occured to him.
    I thinks it´s going to happen with NS aswell. It is allready happening. Luckely the troops are still played by other people so I don´t think it will be as severe as in other RTS games... but still.

  • DeaconDeacon Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9852Members, Constellation
    This is simply refinement of strategy. You try a lot strategies, drop those that don't work. This is part of the reason why we play games; to figure out the rules and determine how to win.

    Historically, there's only two ways to fix this:
    1. Reduce complexity of the game, to simplify fine-tuning and balancing. Think Go, or Quake deathmatch.
    2. Increate the combinatorial complexity of the game, such that there's always new, untested strategies available to players. Think Advanced Squad Leader, or the SimCity games.
  • FeydToBlackFeydToBlack Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13079Members
    I sure as **** hope that they dont tone down the complexity of this game. That is the only reason that I have not put this game into the huge bin of other games that have gotten stale for me.


    Increacing the complexity would definately help.


    One of the best things that Blizzard has been doing with WCIII is nerfing units. These units are usually central in certain tactics. Think how powerful the Shamen rush was months ago. Then blizz put a patch out and that strat went down the hole.


    Also an influx of new players may help to increace the viable strats out there.


    LISTEN TO A COMMS EXPERIMENTAL TACTICS. All the strats that are common were experimental, not all worked. Think of the first time the comm refused to put a tfac in base. I couldnt believe it.

  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
    making the game less complex would destroy the entire point of the game I agree with you. I certainly hope people will start to be more open to different tactics. Its really hard to convice a group of players to try something new even when the old tactics are failing time and time again.
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    There will always be tactics that work better than others given a certain situation like a pubblic server. In 1.04 the only way for the marines to win the game is to lock down 2 hives. Its the only way because after a 2 hive lockdown no more teamwork is needed to win the game. And ramboing is the thing the marine players are best at. (after the lockdown i see a variety of tactics on pubs. Some comms siege us, while some give out jp/hmg or HA/HMG) Same for the aliens. They need carpace since skulks are sooooooo weak. All other abilities like cloak are defensive and dont help you if you must rush a hive to take out the phase gate. If the 2. hive goes up movement is a must since lerk umbra and acid rocket drains sooo much adrenaline so that you are screwed without movement chambers. This limits the tactics and variety for the aliens.

    This all are design flaws(What blockhead decided that flying/umbra/acid rocket takes sooooooo much adrenaline so that you are forced to take movement 2.) and hopefully they will get fixed in 1.1 but until then expect a lot of marine rushes and the D-M-S build order. Another flaw that reduces the available tactics is the lack of counters. In traditional RPG you have counters to each unit but not in NS. For example if you would have 2 armor upgrades at the arms lab one like it is now and the other that reduces acid rocket damage by 80% the comm could choose to give troops better protection against bites or acid rocket which would greatly improve gameplay since the aliens must counter to that tactic. Same for turrets.Choose siege gun or immunity against acid rockets. Would make them more usefull at 2 hives and force the aliens to do something different than rocket spam.
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    w00tage the pple are right

    NS is most fun when playing obscenely long games, when fades and HA duke it out, etc
  • wlibaerswlibaers Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8685Members
    The reason why you're seeing this is that there are certain optimal strategies. However, they are weakened a bit because people become more predictable. If I see something unusual, I immediately notify the team (e.g. marine movement in places that are not part of the standard lockdown). Unpredictable opponents are very dangerous.

    Similarly, if you play marine and you see a sensory chamber or cloaked alien early on, IMMEDIATELY warn your team, and don't feel too confident you have a sure win. Sure, if you can get to a hive and fortify it, aliens with only cloaking probably will never take it back. But if there are a few skulks who know how to use cloaking properly on the server, geting to that hive to fortify it will be hell if the comm doesn't scan often.
  • KingKupoKingKupo Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9785Members
    edited March 2003
    after a certain time, certain tactics wil be popular. like when NS looked more like a 'aliens movie' but on crack to me i found that the HA/HMG was favored after a time the Sieges then the PG , and now the get a **** a JP and HMG and let him do it-style,during these tactics weapons willalso be popular(who knew what a genadelauncher did first day it came out, i tought it was a rifle or something, now we see dudes all over the place whining for their weapon of spam only to get immediatly killed.) .that is because RTS games evolve, but sometimes tactics will be so complex that we forget the value of the tank-rush, if you are up against a clan then expext them to rush, cause most of them **** are too affraid to get out of their base without HA(i am not saying all clans act like this)or just want a easy win for their ego to be boosted and that is why clanservers suck sometimes(another thing are the guys with admin rights, i saw them kicking a good comm because he had a "elite" name). the whole chamber thing is actually well tought out, you will get certain upgrades but have to wait for others, but we know that god forbids us to build a SC first or second, so the hierarchie becomes unchanged and stale.this whole language thing wil prollie eventually evolve into a code, so with pressing buttons they say quick fool ungorge with the number 132425
    and they have HA with 576 and so on.
  • SgtFurySgtFury Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13219Members
    This topic reminds me of something that happened a while back. I was playing as alien and we had this one guy that was moaning on about defending our hive where they were building up outside. After a few trys to take down the tf I decided to chage tatics and went for their main base. Since they were all concentrating on the hive noone was defending and I had an easy route to their ips phase and even their comm when he got fed up and came after me. This made me realise how adaptive you have to be in this game, which gives it that extra appeal to me.
  • FamFam Diaper-Wearing Dog On A Ball Join Date: 2002-02-17 Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--FeydToBlack+Mar 31 2003, 06:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FeydToBlack @ Mar 31 2003, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sure as **** hope that they dont tone down the complexity of this game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I am looking for the Dev team to increase the complexity whilst reducing the difficulty. But that would take too long to discuss here. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Error404Error404 Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9353Members
    Funny topic, and good one too. Seems like the whole world is going that way, we are spoilt for getting things faster. Everything's about 'on demand', 'instantly', 'super-fasssst'.

    I've been playing NS for a while now, and I think it happens with every game, you get to a point where it's not fast enough for you because you've become so accustomed to it, that you start to find the usual pace a bit sluggish.

    'I want to get lots of multi-kills, and I want them now!'. Even the start-up screen seems to stay on the screen too long for me nowadays. I don't even bother to decide which team I'm joining, I just run into the nearest portal.

    The thing you're saying about language, like 'ungorge', yeah funny stuff, made me laugh. I wonder what people who have just started playing NS think about all this, let alone understand the jargon. The other day, I went temporary gorge to get a res node, and another gorge just told me 'f*** off'.

    Sometimes, the pace of the game is so fast, and the amount of work that is required to win it.. it's even stressful just thinking about it.

    I reckon at this rate, we'll all be suffering NS related stress-disorders.
  • StormehStormeh Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3541Members
    You are right, the game have become more and more fast paced and people tends to play only to win than to have fun most of the time.

    I think it was much more fun when NS first came out. Noone knew what to do or where to go, so the games could often be 1-2 hr long. Nowdays people know the best tactics so they can end the game much faster. I prefer the long even games rather than the rushes we see on most public servers.
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
  • UlatohUlatoh Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 10982Members
    weld the ip's and the pg, dont forget the HA's and the Jp's.

    TFAC TFAC theyre spikin the tfac!

    their sieging the ocs's drop dcs under hive

    everyone go cara/celeriskulk

    mc's up, get adren fades

    ...need i go on?
  • Mr_BanksMr_Banks Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13071Members
    My favorite is "piggy huntteeeerrr!!" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I don't know what to do with myself here - polite, intelligent, well-reasoned opinions without flames or a need to lock.


    Heh. Great posts fellas, keep it going. This is very interesting reading, and I may weigh in a bit later with my thoughts as well...
  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
    Lol yea to prove my own point, yesterday night after I wrote the initial post I went to go play NS. The marines were full so I went aliens. the map was tanith I think. Well anyways I dont usualy play as aliens but I must have gotten REALLY REALLY lucky. It was 4 aliens and 3 clan member marines with a nonclaner. I raced ahead of my team and skulk rushed and killed the entire marine team, bit the IPs and comm chair and beat them all 2 rounds in a row. 2 Rounds, done in less then 5 mineuts playing time. wow. Now Im not asking if the marines should have defended better that was besides the point but sould this have happened? i almost had it a third time too except someone joined the game and killed me. But Should this have happened? I mean really, It doesnt matter what side you are on, 2 almost three rounds in less then 5 min. in the end yea i admit it, I felt "highly masterful in the arts of NS" but then again, i got a bad aftertaste of victory. That really wasnt much fun. And now the map had changed.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Mar 31 2003, 04:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Mar 31 2003, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now Im not asking if the marines should have defended better that was besides the point but sould this have happened? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm afraid thats a critical question. Yes they should have done. Espcially twice in a row. Although things like that do become more likely in smaller games.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    If only I was better at accepting a loss and staying in the CC until last drop, rather than hopping out and doing my best to stop whatever is threatening where noone seems able to defend.... then I would experiment alot more. With the blessing of my teammates of course, otherwise they might just call me a lamer, and rightly so, since I would have done something the rest of the team didn't agree with, no matter how good MC first might be(silence pwns those unsuspecting marines).
    No, I do not F4. Unless marines are spawncamping alot, but lets not discuss that, it'll just be hellish flames.
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